Combat strategies?

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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by dicktator_ »

Imperial Noob wrote:Also, raging in games is naive. Why would you ever rage on something, that involves no cheating console commands and no exterior software? (i.e. why would you rage against something, that can be learned about before playing?)

This entire paragraph is naive. You don't have to look very hard in either the sup or treaty community to find people who rage either in general or about specific things.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by pecelot »

That's unrelated, though, as the author of the quote questions the basis on which the rage appears, not the presence of it in the community altogether.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by Imperial Noob »

pecelot wrote:That's unrelated, though, as the author of the quote questions the basis on which the rage appears, not the presence of it in the community altogether.

bam! @dicktator_ ;)
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by dicktator_ »

He said that there is no reason to ever rage at anything that isn't cheating, which was the specific point I was arguing against. He also said "raging in games" which made me think he was referring to general rage.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by britishmusketeer »

Imperial Noob wrote:As long as combat strats are concerned, sometimes it is worth risking to include one situational card in your deck as Germany (improved mercenaries) in case there are mamelukes available. For 4 pop they soak up 3140 ranged damage, what is a ton. Idk about the highest levels, but on lower-middle elo they make good tanks.

As a result of Mamelukes(and improved mercs) being super broken in general and uhlans not being great once armies get larger, it may seem better to make mams instead of uhlans since they tank alot more for for their pop even in the imperial age(ranged hp is the useful stat on cav and uhlans only have 399hp in imperial). However the two main reasons that they are not used in treaty are 1) you are using a space in your deck for a slim chance of getting mams(all other mercs are just bad in imperial) and 2) They train super slow which is super bad in treaty since you make hand cav when you see that your opponent doesn't have enough anti-cav, chances are in the time it took your batch to complete you don't need them anymore.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by Imperial Noob »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:As long as combat strats are concerned, sometimes it is worth risking to include one situational card in your deck as Germany (improved mercenaries) in case there are mamelukes available. For 4 pop they soak up 3140 ranged damage, what is a ton. Idk about the highest levels, but on lower-middle elo they make good tanks.

As a result of Mamelukes(and improved mercs) being super broken in general and uhlans not being great once armies get larger, it may seem better to make mams instead of uhlans since they tank alot more for for their pop even in the imperial age(ranged hp is the useful stat on cav and uhlans only have 399hp in imperial). However the two main reasons that they are not used in treaty are 1) you are using a space in your deck for a slim chance of getting mams(all other mercs are just bad in imperial) and 2) They train super slow which is super bad in treaty since you make hand cav when you see that your opponent doesn't have enough anti-cav, chances are in the time it took your batch to complete you don't need them anymore.

I remember mams being trained pretty quickly
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by martinspjuth »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:As long as combat strats are concerned, sometimes it is worth risking to include one situational card in your deck as Germany (improved mercenaries) in case there are mamelukes available. For 4 pop they soak up 3140 ranged damage, what is a ton. Idk about the highest levels, but on lower-middle elo they make good tanks.

As a result of Mamelukes(and improved mercs) being super broken in general and uhlans not being great once armies get larger, it may seem better to make mams instead of uhlans since they tank alot more for for their pop even in the imperial age(ranged hp is the useful stat on cav and uhlans only have 399hp in imperial). However the two main reasons that they are not used in treaty are 1) you are using a space in your deck for a slim chance of getting mams(all other mercs are just bad in imperial) and 2) They train super slow which is super bad in treaty since you make hand cav when you see that your opponent doesn't have enough anti-cav, chances are in the time it took your batch to complete you don't need them anymore.

With Riding School out as well as the train tech from church, there isn't a big difference between the train time between mams and other cav. On andes, once you got the inca tech, mams are actually instant just like any other cav.
Ulhans reach 500hp in imperial when you done all tech and sent all cards. They have almost 3 times the attack of the mameluke and 2 Uhlans cost 100 ress less than 1 Mameluke. Also, with the hp split over more units, more of the enemy's attack will be wasted on overkill.
Imo Mamelukes aren't rly worth it for Ger unless you send the improved merc card. And you don't want to waste a space in your deck just for the remote chance that you will get Mamelukes in your saloon. The only civs i think Mamelukes could be remotely usefull for is Dutch and Port, since their Huss suck so hard and a 1595hp 40%rr tank that isn't countered by skirms are quite nice even if it takes 4 pop and 400 gold.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by britishmusketeer »

martinspjuth wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:As long as combat strats are concerned, sometimes it is worth risking to include one situational card in your deck as Germany (improved mercenaries) in case there are mamelukes available. For 4 pop they soak up 3140 ranged damage, what is a ton. Idk about the highest levels, but on lower-middle elo they make good tanks.

As a result of Mamelukes(and improved mercs) being super broken in general and uhlans not being great once armies get larger, it may seem better to make mams instead of uhlans since they tank alot more for for their pop even in the imperial age(ranged hp is the useful stat on cav and uhlans only have 399hp in imperial). However the two main reasons that they are not used in treaty are 1) you are using a space in your deck for a slim chance of getting mams(all other mercs are just bad in imperial) and 2) They train super slow which is super bad in treaty since you make hand cav when you see that your opponent doesn't have enough anti-cav, chances are in the time it took your batch to complete you don't need them anymore.

With Riding School out as well as the train tech from church, there isn't a big difference between the train time between mams and other cav. On andes, once you got the inca tech, mams are actually instant just like any other cav.
Ulhans reach 500hp in imperial when you done all tech and sent all cards. They have almost 3 times the attack of the mameluke and 2 Uhlans cost 100 ress less than 1 Mameluke. Also, with the hp split over more units, more of the enemy's attack will be wasted on overkill.
Imo Mamelukes aren't rly worth it for Ger unless you send the improved merc card. And you don't want to waste a space in your deck just for the remote chance that you will get Mamelukes in your saloon. The only civs i think Mamelukes could be remotely usefull for is Dutch and Port, since their Huss suck so hard and a 1595hp 40%rr tank that isn't countered by skirms are quite nice even if it takes 4 pop and 400 gold.

ah ok, i didn't think that riding school/church tech affected mercs for some reason. But yea i agree it's not worth putting improved mercs in your deck for the off chance that mams are in the saloon.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by EmoCelestia »

Wait, riding school and church tech make saloon units train at the speed of other units like hussars with those techs researched?
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by tedere12 »

not at that speed but faster
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by martinspjuth »

EmoCelestia wrote:Wait, riding school and church tech make saloon units train at the speed of other units like hussars with those techs researched?

Riding School and church tech effect all units with the cavalry tag, no matter if they also got the mercenary tag or not. But the mercenary cav have a longer train time to start with. With the card sent and the tech researched normal cav train in around 4 sec and merc cav in like 6 sec. If you also research the inca tech, both will be training instantly.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by ocemilky »

Pretty much agree with dick/tanner/gitch. I'd pretty much always scout my opponents double check, and if I see a box then I'll focus more on defending. I don't really mind as much as other people if I get boxed, because usually boxes don't work if you defend properly. It is a little frustrating when you have to work way harder to defend from a box than someone using it, but it still shouldn't work. The most important thing to remember is taking map control while dealing with the box, more than makes up for it. You can pretty much lock down your opponent if you do a decent job.

If you box, you're in it to win which I'm absolutely fine with. In general, I'd prefer to use the game to practice my badly out of shape skills, but I won't get mad about it. I'd personally see it as a failure on my part for not scouting it. In saying that, most people would consider it a waste of time and might get mad and rq, which I think is fair enough.

In general, I wouldn't box because it never works. Lower elo it probably does, so up to you if you want to use it.
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Re: Combat strategies?

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Post by sc »

site wrote:I was curious what non civ-specific strategies can go into those massive battles aside from throwing two big armies at each other and seeing who wins. Granted, a lot of it is circumstancial, what tips do you guys have for beating the enemy?


Not many combat strats being shared in here.

1. Before treaty ends, designate 10 melee cav to specifically hunt and kill map control & forward base vils. attack move 4-6 melee cav feom your base walls towards your opponents base walls at varying distances so you get maximum coverage. do this seconds BEFORE treaty ends so that they cross HM approx when treaty ends so you dont break HM rules, while saving yourself some precious post Treaty APM. Micro the other 4-6 cav to flank opponents start army to kill fb vils. prioritize vils activly building stables/baracks, and further prioritze settler wagons over settlers.

2. Scout opponents finished base perimeter in its entirety. Look for weaknesses to exploit. A shocking amount of players are incapable/too lazy to make proper bases. This is a tactical decision, and a tactical error. They chose to be stupid and/or prioritzed spending vil seconds on economy rather then making a proper base. Exploit these bad decisions.

You don't need to fully commit to wall weaknesses. 1-10 melee nats, dopps, halbs, etc can cause some havoc and make your opponent spend more time defending then you spent attacking that exploit.

3. Set waypoint of your fb towncenter behind enemy lines, into opponents fb. Spam explorer revive so your explorer is constanty walking into enemy, and tanking dmg. Well worth the gold. As your APM improves, you can use explorer crackshot as often as it comes up vs opponents expensive units. Well worth the revive gold. Make sure you get the hero upgrades from capital.

4. When opponent has sloppy map control, shift click some seige units to take out specific enemy installations, aka native posts, trade posts, artillery foundries. Shift click units to get around obstacles and avoid areas of conflict. It takes you a couple seconds to execute this order, but it will take more then that for opponent to clean up the mess. Taking out an active artillery foundry or a native post can kill a fight and force opponent to fall back hard. Oo, spanish church is also a priority target that is usually in the forward base.

5. Consider how effective your horse artillery/rockets/heavy canon are being. If they are dying instantly to enemy culv, you shouldnt be making them. Pull them back when enemy culverins are out. They will still be effective vs enemy melee units that come in range, dont risk losing your artillery to enemy culv!1

6. keep stables up on your flanks. that way you are positioned to punish opponent for stupid positioning. dont spam cav, but every once and a while a few hussars to some exposed artillery is huge.

7. Learn hotkeys for unit formations. You ahould be staggering inf vs artillery you cant run from/as you run from them, and you should be putting a couple musk in melee mode vs cav formations to slow them, etc.

8. command group your forward base buildings so you can focus on the fight and queue more units without looking away. keep buildings to the same command group so you memorize them and they become second nature aka always put artillery foundry to #5, dont switch with stable etc.

9. forward base as you advance and as you fall back (reverse... base...?). it seems obvious but many people get focused on the fight and the micro and they spend all game fighting from the same FB without ever advancing. this means units spend more time traveling and you arent getting the best trades.

10. Your opponent is microing better then you? Your eventually gonna lose if you keep bashing into eachother? Mix something up to knock him off his stride. Bolster walls at your fb while developing a flank fb. commit one or two vils to develop an fb at your opponents walls. you sont even have to use the fbs, but making him deal with clearing them out will dramatically help your fight at the primary fb. plus, if opponent sucks at managing idle mili, he may not retask the troops clearing out the flank fbs promptly, giving you pop advantage for some time.

11. If you have a civ that uses an infinite native card shipment like cherokee or tupi, spend an abnormal amount of time making sure they stay alive and are positioned correctly. this is all about maintaining superior pop numbers, which will give you better trades. when opponent has nats out, task artillery to clear those batards out and lower his total pop on the field.

12. dont let any artillery piece be touching another artillery piece. youre just giving freebies to enemy culv. micro and seperate those bitches. likewise prioritze enemy grouped artillery.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE »

site wrote:I was curious what non civ-specific strategies can go into those massive battles aside from throwing two big armies at each other and seeing who wins. Granted, a lot of it is circumstancial, what tips do you guys have for beating the enemy?



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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by pecelot »

sc wrote:5. Consider how effective your horse artillery/rockets/heavy canon are being. If they are dying instantly to enemy culv, you shouldnt be making them. Pull them back when enemy culverins are out. They will still be effective vs enemy melee units that come in range, dont risk losing your artillery to enemy culv!1

Isn't it better to sacrifice one or two cannons to switch to other units production? If you back your artillery off, it's going to become rather useless, as it will not deal any damage, while simultaneously taking pop space :idea:
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by martinspjuth »

pecelot wrote:
sc wrote:5. Consider how effective your horse artillery/rockets/heavy canon are being. If they are dying instantly to enemy culv, you shouldnt be making them. Pull them back when enemy culverins are out. They will still be effective vs enemy melee units that come in range, dont risk losing your artillery to enemy culv!1

Isn't it better to sacrifice one or two cannons to switch to other units production? If you back your artillery off, it's going to become rather useless, as it will not deal any damage, while simultaneously taking pop space :idea:

You withdraw your cannons when you are out culved, but you shouldn't draw them farther back than that they still can fire at aggressive hand units (cav, doppels, humanincas etc). If the enemy still try to reach them with his culvs, they will most likely die to regular fire from your army, or from a few cav from your flank stable. It isn't as effective to have them shoot at lone units as to have them fire at huge skirm masses, but as soon as you got some culvs of your own you can move the other cannons back to front to shoot at the infantry masses, since the enemy will have to focus on your culvs first (and you should be able to kill some of his culvs). You don't want to have to remake the art all the time, they take a long time to train (lots of pop locked in training) and they are expensive.

You can go too far though. I have noticed this especially with some players playing Ger. People are very careful to not lose their hc's. That is all good, but not when you haven't got of a single good shot for several mins. Then the cannons are just blocking pop. Better lose a cannon once in a while but having them deal great damage, instead of keeping them alive for ages, but effectively idle 90% of the time.
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Re: Combat strategies?

Post by dicktator_ »

sc wrote:
site wrote:I was curious what non civ-specific strategies can go into those massive battles aside from throwing two big armies at each other and seeing who wins. Granted, a lot of it is circumstancial, what tips do you guys have for beating the enemy?


Not many combat strats being shared in here.

1. Before treaty ends, designate 10 melee cav to specifically hunt and kill map control & forward base vils. attack move 4-6 melee cav feom your base walls towards your opponents base walls at varying distances so you get maximum coverage. do this seconds BEFORE treaty ends so that they cross HM approx when treaty ends so you dont break HM rules, while saving yourself some precious post Treaty APM. Micro the other 4-6 cav to flank opponents start army to kill fb vils. prioritize vils activly building stables/baracks, and further prioritze settler wagons over settlers.

2. Scout opponents finished base perimeter in its entirety. Look for weaknesses to exploit. A shocking amount of players are incapable/too lazy to make proper bases. This is a tactical decision, and a tactical error. They chose to be stupid and/or prioritzed spending vil seconds on economy rather then making a proper base. Exploit these bad decisions.

You don't need to fully commit to wall weaknesses. 1-10 melee nats, dopps, halbs, etc can cause some havoc and make your opponent spend more time defending then you spent attacking that exploit.

3. Set waypoint of your fb towncenter behind enemy lines, into opponents fb. Spam explorer revive so your explorer is constanty walking into enemy, and tanking dmg. Well worth the gold. As your APM improves, you can use explorer crackshot as often as it comes up vs opponents expensive units. Well worth the revive gold. Make sure you get the hero upgrades from capital.

4. When opponent has sloppy map control, shift click some seige units to take out specific enemy installations, aka native posts, trade posts, artillery foundries. Shift click units to get around obstacles and avoid areas of conflict. It takes you a couple seconds to execute this order, but it will take more then that for opponent to clean up the mess. Taking out an active artillery foundry or a native post can kill a fight and force opponent to fall back hard. Oo, spanish church is also a priority target that is usually in the forward base.

5. Consider how effective your horse artillery/rockets/heavy canon are being. If they are dying instantly to enemy culv, you shouldnt be making them. Pull them back when enemy culverins are out. They will still be effective vs enemy melee units that come in range, dont risk losing your artillery to enemy culv!1

6. keep stables up on your flanks. that way you are positioned to punish opponent for stupid positioning. dont spam cav, but every once and a while a few hussars to some exposed artillery is huge.

7. Learn hotkeys for unit formations. You ahould be staggering inf vs artillery you cant run from/as you run from them, and you should be putting a couple musk in melee mode vs cav formations to slow them, etc.

8. command group your forward base buildings so you can focus on the fight and queue more units without looking away. keep buildings to the same command group so you memorize them and they become second nature aka always put artillery foundry to #5, dont switch with stable etc.

9. forward base as you advance and as you fall back (reverse... base...?). it seems obvious but many people get focused on the fight and the micro and they spend all game fighting from the same FB without ever advancing. this means units spend more time traveling and you arent getting the best trades.

10. Your opponent is microing better then you? Your eventually gonna lose if you keep bashing into eachother? Mix something up to knock him off his stride. Bolster walls at your fb while developing a flank fb. commit one or two vils to develop an fb at your opponents walls. you sont even have to use the fbs, but making him deal with clearing them out will dramatically help your fight at the primary fb. plus, if opponent sucks at managing idle mili, he may not retask the troops clearing out the flank fbs promptly, giving you pop advantage for some time.

11. If you have a civ that uses an infinite native card shipment like cherokee or tupi, spend an abnormal amount of time making sure they stay alive and are positioned correctly. this is all about maintaining superior pop numbers, which will give you better trades. when opponent has nats out, task artillery to clear those batards out and lower his total pop on the field.

12. dont let any artillery piece be touching another artillery piece. youre just giving freebies to enemy culv. micro and seperate those bitches. likewise prioritze enemy grouped artillery.

Nice post, I can add to that:

Regarding #6 I just want to reiterate the importance of not overspamming cav from flank stables. Likewise, if you notice your opponent overspamming cav in a very predictable and easy to counter way from a flank stable, it can be better to leave that stable up so that your opponent continues to drain on resources.

If you're playing a standard 2v2/3v3 (two or three 1v1 fights), your opponent starts sending army to a teammate, and you're inclined to help him, first consider who benefits from the 2v2 fight. Civs like ports and german are insanely good in teamfights, while civs like Spain and dutch prefer 1v1s. Double civs tend to not do well in team fights due to having access to less unique units (for example, double german would lose to german brit). Also consider the danger you're opponent is in. If your opponent has a lot of room to fall back, you can usually safely push your own fight, but if he's pushed to his base walls or about to lose natives, you might want to consider helping him. Keep in mind a lot of the time it's better to just push your own front simply due to the fact you're forcing your opponent to react to you, whereas if you go to your teammate when your opponent doubled first you're reacting to your opponent, who then has the initiative (faking a teamfight to then try a big jump to your opponents base is a good strat). In a 3v3, another possibility is to double in the other 1v1 fight (for example, it's Andes, you're fighting your opponent next to natives, and your opponent doubles in natives, so you double in the fight furthest from nats, and push it to their base walls, forcing your opponents to react). There are so many applications to this it's insane, but above all just make sure you're teammate doesn't get doubled for nothing.
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