Combat strategies?

[site]

I was curious what non civ-specific strategies can go into those massive battles aside from throwing two big armies at each other and seeing who wins. Granted, a lot of it is circumstancial, what tips do you guys have for beating the enemy?

[forgrin]

You mean like micro tips?

Well I guess simple ones like making sure your units are targeting their counters for maximum multipliers (eg skirms on goons, goons on cav).

A good one for musk battles that can be really decisive is flanking well; if you can get where your entire front line can shoot first on the side of their line this can swing musk fights hard quickly. Difficult to pull off though.

If you have an advantage in numbers you can pull some cav off before the fight and position them so they catch your opponent's reinforcing batches. They don't even have to kill them, just slowing them down while yours arrive first can be enough.

I'll think of more stuff later.

Edit: treaty lol whoops. Nvm.

[Jaeger]

You mean like micro tips?

Well I guess simple ones like making sure your units are targeting their counters for maximum multipliers (eg skirms on goons, goons on cav).

A good one for musk battles that can be really decisive is flanking well; if you can get where your entire front line can shoot first on the side of their line this can swing musk fights hard quickly. Difficult to pull off though.

If you have an advantage in numbers you can pull some cav off before the fight and position them so they catch your opponent's reinforcing batches. They don't even have to kill them, just slowing them down while yours arrive first can be enough.

I'll think of more stuff later.

Edit: treaty lol whoops. Nvm.

This is Treaty forum lul

[forgrin]

You mean like micro tips?

Well I guess simple ones like making sure your units are targeting their counters for maximum multipliers (eg skirms on goons, goons on cav).

A good one for musk battles that can be really decisive is flanking well; if you can get where your entire front line can shoot first on the side of their line this can swing musk fights hard quickly. Difficult to pull off though.

If you have an advantage in numbers you can pull some cav off before the fight and position them so they catch your opponent's reinforcing batches. They don't even have to kill them, just slowing them down while yours arrive first can be enough.

I'll think of more stuff later.

Edit: treaty lol whoops. Nvm.

This is Treaty forum lul

Shhhh I knows Ovi

[Jaeger]

I was curious what non civ-specific strategies can go into those massive battles aside from throwing two big armies at each other and seeing who wins. Granted, a lot of it is circumstancial, what tips do you guys have for beating the enemy?

One of the most important things is the artillery war. With most (if not all) civs you should always have some artillery out. Try to take out the enemy culverins with your own, while keeping your other artillery out of range of the enemy culvs as well. If you want to see stuff like this in detail you can check out streams from top treaty players.

[forgrin]

As Ovi said it seems from what I watch that micro is really limited to cannons + making sure your skirms don't get caught by cav, just because there's so much constant production APM in treaty that it's hard to do much more. It kinda boils down to making sure your high-dps ranged infantry (skirms or w/e) are safe while simultaneously trying to dent their infantry mass as much as possible.

[pecelot]

watching pro's POV really helps I have to admit, check out for instance twitch.tv/conquerer999

[howlingwolfpaw]

basically just wall spam. wall in front of army, wall little pillars to make units auto siege them, lame stuff like that.

most of the battle strategies are pretty civ specific as some are more aggressive/ defensive.

but a trick for working culverins, if you want to attack another cannon slightly out of range, target your culverin to move forward, and then to attack the cannon, that way they dont change modes. Its all about the culv war, thats what separates the 2nd lts from the higher ups.

[pl0xmaster]

What about siege boxes? I know you can do it with oprichniks and samurais, is there any other unit capable of that?

[martinspjuth]

What about siege boxes? I know you can do it with oprichniks and samurais, is there any other unit capable of that?

You can do it with almost any melee unit (together with a suitable range unit), but not all units are good in a box.

The units which do strong boxes are high siege units, like Oprichniks, Gendarms, Dog Soldiers, Axe Riders, Samurais, Doppelsoldners and Skull Knights. You can make a box of Halbardiers, Pikemans, Hussars, Lancers etc as well, but they won't be as usefull.

On Andes a box of Inca Humanica can also be quite strong, if you got all 4 nats.

Some people consider boxing very lame, so don't be suprised if you get flamed after you sent a box into their eco at 40

[_NiceKING_]

WarChief can be used instead of a ranged unit

[Gichtenlord]

Some people consider boxing very lame, so don't be suprised if you get flamed after you sent a box into their eco at 40

I take the bait.

I dont see the reason behind abusing boxes in a normal game. Using a box is a lazy move to win the game and, imo, in a normal game you want to improve as much as possible your mechanics. You just make the game worse for everybody ingame and a waste of time.
What do you gain in a normal game from a box? Some pr? Some elo? In a game mode where nobody cares about elo and pr anyways. Some people, dont even care about winning and losing anymore.

By the way, I wont flame anyone ingame for doing a box. Im just going to be like: "cmon bruh, why u do dis?".

[deleted_user]

You can actually micro musk wars at times. Less so about individually targeting low hp musks and more so with constant focus on positioning. Here are a couple of examples in a brit mirror vs Risi123.

Example 1: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/Gl ... epPanicVis
Microing musks back so enemy receives poor pathing in trees

Example 2: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/OddBatHotPokket
Two groups of muskets to provide a concave. Still microing musks back so enemy musks are walking forward and not all of them are shooting.

These are both situations where I think I was behind in the musk count but made the most of it. This game I had a very bad start (aged 1 vill late by accident) and did a bad build (did aklak 700g to compensate) but still managed to keep it close for a long time with slight advantages like these.

[martinspjuth]

Some people consider boxing very lame, so don't be suprised if you get flamed after you sent a box into their eco at 40

I take the bait.

I dont see the reason behind abusing boxes in a normal game. Using a box is a lazy move to win the game and, imo, in a normal game you want to improve as much as possible your mechanics. You just make the game worse for everybody ingame and a waste of time.
What do you gain in a normal game from a box? Some pr? Some elo? In a game mode where nobody cares about elo and pr anyways. Some people, dont even care about winning and losing anymore.

By the way, I wont flame anyone ingame for doing a box. Im just going to be like: "cmon bruh, why u do dis?".

I agree it can be lame to use boxes on RE since you can get map screwed, i.e. not being able to close walls before 40, have too little space in base etc. However, if you are playing on Treaty Patch and loses to a box, then you deserve to lose. It should be so simple to stop in time.

Boxes can be a nice tool to counter hard camping (which imo can be even more lame than boxing). It's also the simple thing that i don't like passing up on an oppurtunity created by my enemy's misstake. If he neglegts walling and/or map control/awarness then i am gonna punish him for it.

I don't think making map awarness and map control a more important part of the game would "just make the game worse for everybody and a waste of time".

[tedere12]

Yep. In musketeer mirrors ( japan france british ect) most people attack move, what you can do is pull one or two musketeers in the front so that they receive more damage than enough to kill them and pull some low hp ones back (although this is better when you have smaller armies so forget that).

[Gichtenlord]

I don't think making map awarness and map control a more important part of the game would "just make the game worse for everybody and a waste of time".

There are type of boxes who shit on map control (e.g opri box) and force the defender to put more attention to denying it than you have to do as the one using it.
Also, what's the point of edging out a game with a box? You won the game and learnt nothing out of it, cool. You abused a weakness of your opponent instead of trying to beat him with your own strengths/trying to improve your gameplay. Your opponent will just adapt next game and will take more attention to map control if he play versus you.

[forgrin]

You can actually micro musk wars at times. Less so about individually targeting low hp musks and more so with constant focus on positioning. Here are a couple of examples in a brit mirror vs Risi123.

Example 1: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/Gl ... epPanicVis
Microing musks back so enemy receives poor pathing in trees

Example 2: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/OddBatHotPokket
Two groups of muskets to provide a concave. Still microing musks back so enemy musks are walking forward and not all of them are shooting.

These are both situations where I think I was behind in the musk count but made the most of it. This game I had a very bad start (aged 1 vill late by accident) and did a bad build (did aklak 700g to compensate) but still managed to keep it close for a long time with slight advantages like these.

treaty forum

[Gichtenlord]

You can actually micro musk wars at times. Less so about individually targeting low hp musks and more so with constant focus on positioning. Here are a couple of examples in a brit mirror vs Risi123.

Example 1: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/Gl ... epPanicVis
Microing musks back so enemy receives poor pathing in trees

Example 2: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/OddBatHotPokket
Two groups of muskets to provide a concave. Still microing musks back so enemy musks are walking forward and not all of them are shooting.

These are both situations where I think I was behind in the musk count but made the most of it. This game I had a very bad start (aged 1 vill late by accident) and did a bad build (did aklak 700g to compensate) but still managed to keep it close for a long time with slight advantages like these.

treaty forum

Its fine. Trying to get your units into a concave formation is one of the most important things in treaty, which, sadly, just a few people do or rather are able to do.

[martinspjuth]

There are type of boxes who shit on map control (e.g opri box) and force the defender to put more attention to denying it than you have to do as the one using it.
I dissagree. Opri, gendarm and dog boxes are all nerfed on patch. You should be able to stop the box with less pop than he commited into the box, so you should be winning ground in main fight while stoping his box. And it isn't like making boxes are free. If you make a full box and fail, you will have wasted around 7k ress while your enemy didnt lose more than maybe 500 wood in walls and gates while you also lost ground in main fight.

Also, what's the point of edging out a game with a box? You won the game and learnt nothing out of it, cool. You abused a weakness of your opponent instead of trying to beat him with your own strengths/trying to improve your gameplay.
Not everyone considers army microing the solo aspect of skill, some actually think knowing where and when to fight to be a skill too. Taking advantage of the enemy's misstake is also a skill
Your opponent will just adapt next game and will take more attention to map control if he play versus you.
And that is half the point! I want them to do that, i want the game to be more focused on where and when to fight, + when they give more attention to the map, i have a better chance in the main fight

[charlemagen]

In my opinion boxing is only lame if you do it at the 40 min mark. If it works you won the game, gained some elo/pr and waisted everyone's time. If it doesn't work, normally the boxing player has lost so much ground that they lose the fight. Still a waist of 40 mins. Boxing is a cheap tool used for players who want to win the game, and in a small game mode where we spend so much time on our games I think we would be a little more protective over the few good ones we get. Some may say, "get some map awareness", or "wall more", but the fact is you are just giving yourself an excuse to lame a dumb strategy to gain elo. No other reason. That being said I do think boxes post 40 are a viable strategy. If you are about to lose, need a push/diversion it can be a great tool and I see no problem with people doing that. Bottom line is don't waste people's time just because you want good pr compared to our other active 15 players.

[pecelot]

You can actually micro musk wars at times. Less so about individually targeting low hp musks and more so with constant focus on positioning. Here are a couple of examples in a brit mirror vs Risi123.

Example 1: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/Gl ... epPanicVis
Microing musks back so enemy receives poor pathing in trees

Example 2: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/OddBatHotPokket
Two groups of muskets to provide a concave. Still microing musks back so enemy musks are walking forward and not all of them are shooting.

These are both situations where I think I was behind in the musk count but made the most of it. This game I had a very bad start (aged 1 vill late by accident) and did a bad build (did aklak 700g to compensate) but still managed to keep it close for a long time with slight advantages like these.

well played callen

[dicktator_]

You can actually micro musk wars at times. Less so about individually targeting low hp musks and more so with constant focus on positioning. Here are a couple of examples in a brit mirror vs Risi123.

Example 1: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/Gl ... epPanicVis
Microing musks back so enemy receives poor pathing in trees

Example 2: https://clips.twitch.tv/sircallenaoe/OddBatHotPokket
Two groups of muskets to provide a concave. Still microing musks back so enemy musks are walking forward and not all of them are shooting.

These are both situations where I think I was behind in the musk count but made the most of it. This game I had a very bad start (aged 1 vill late by accident) and did a bad build (did aklak 700g to compensate) but still managed to keep it close for a long time with slight advantages like these.

treaty forum

Its fine. Trying to get your units into a concave formation is one of the most important things in treaty, which, sadly, just a few people do or rather are able to do.

True, I think I wasn't even doing it until sabusa came back and I saw him doing it on stream.

[dicktator_]

In a perfect world boxing and similar things would be a widely accepted part of treaty but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I know boxing is actually stoppable if you make proper preparations but there's a lot you have to do.

1. Proper walling at least 5 outer and 1 eco
2. Have to have faster cav training out before 40
3. Have to have units spread across HM for LoS
4. You have to have stables spread across your base properly
5. You have to delete most of your start a my to remake goons asap.

Neglect any one of these things and a box will get in. Now, let's look at what the boxer has to do.

1. Make a box
2. Right click on opponents walls and later factories.

This is part of the frustration for me at least. You could argue that these preparations are basic things that players should do every game when facing any boxing Civs, and you'd have a valid point at that, but it's just so much easier to stop than it is to do.

If you box vs me and it works, I'll be mad at you for anywhere between an hour and a day, then I won't care anymore. Also I won't pest anyone for playing how they want to, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. As a general rule just make sure you have thick skin if you plan on making boxing a part of your play style because people will probably get mad at you .

[noissance]

In my experience (pr18-25) there are 2 types of games:
1. Games with gentlemen's rules
2. Anything goes

The latter is where game gets silly (OP boxes, alt-d, etc.) Most of the high level players go HM no op games, and usually fight corner wars or heads up. In this situation the person who can protect their artillery better usually wins. In the latter case, games end up being chaotic and unpredictable, which some find interesting, where constant walling is necessary.

[Imperial Noob]

Box is a part of the game, and being such, it should be considered by the player before playing, not while.
Any metaphysical reasoning against it just makes one sound preposterous.
Also, raging in games is naive. Why would you ever rage on something, that involves no cheating console commands and no exterior software? (i.e. why would you rage against something, that can be learned about before playing?)

As long as combat strats are concerned, sometimes it is worth risking to include one situational card in your deck as Germany (improved mercenaries) in case there are mamelukes available. For 4 pop they soak up 3140 ranged damage, what is a ton. Idk about the highest levels, but on lower-middle elo they make good tanks.