Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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Post by Gichtenlord »

zoom wrote:Of course there will be another patch. In fact, one was released just an hour ago, and the next one is coming in 23 more.

Before you continue to rant about the treaty patch whenever there is a possibility, try to fix your own patch first :flowers:
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Thanks for your feedback, I hope more people express their opinion about the current balance as well, it's important and can generate new ideas. My opinion below:

martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.

I agree that those are the best civs right now together with France in natives, also a tower nerf would be fine for me, doesn't really influence me either :>

Portugugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).

I think Ports are fine right now, maybe just not as good as the previous 3 in nats but our main goal is having a good balance out of natives first. Buffing huss would just be standartizing IMO, weaker huss are just one of Port's characteristics and influence the way how you play vs them (skirm-heavy to force them to make huss which are worse than average).

Ottoman
Somewhat like Portugal, fairly balanced, but still struggles in quite a few mu's. Not sure how to buff them without making them too strong, but i would like to see a slight XP boost to the church, so that they can get out more cards before 40.

I agree, we gave Ottos so many buffs but they're still not that great, though I think they're alright (people just don't play them well IMO).

Dutch
Earlier on patch one of the strongest, but after some nerfs they're currently slightly on the weak side. I suggest giving them a 5% boost to banks on Tulip Speculation card (so that the total bonus to banks from it is 25%). Or perhaps slightly buff Ruyters again.

You think they're slightly on the weak side? Weird, I know I haven't been playing a lot the past months but I still think that Dutch are pretty strong (out of nats obviously, not that great in nats cause of weak eco).

France
They are fine imo.

Agreed.

Spain
Not sure where they are really.

They're fine now though I still want RE spain back :biggrin:

Russia
They are fine atm. Would still like the fort build limit up to 2 again tho :grin:

Agreed, 2 forts have to come back, just another random nerf which has to be reverted.

India
Not sure

They're fine now, I have an idea which will probably make a specific unit more viable though.

China
Needs some changing, is mostly spam as it is now.

Well that's just how China always has been kinda. I feel like they could be too strong if we buffed them more but they also kinda suck a little atm lol.

Japan
They are fine.

Agreed.

Iroquoise
Not sure

Probably dick thinks they're fine cause he beat almost anyone with them (I think) but in my opinion people just didn't play it correctly... Imo Iros got rekt with the last update but I need to play them more (or against them but only dick plays them besides me).

Aztec
They're ok atm, still struggles against towers and walls tho.

There HAVE to be changes incoming, they're probably one of the most boring civs atm :(

Sioux
Same as Aztec, strugles against walls and towers.

IDK IDC

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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by dicktator_ »

Iro seems fine to me, although it still falls short vs the current top 3 Civs, but one thing I noticed is that their late game is still shit (infinite 700w/700c helps but it's still shit). Usually the only time I get forced into late game Iro is if I get 2v1 though.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by Gichtenlord »

martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.
Atleast the most versatile civs. There isnt a map where brit is not good on, because of their flexibility.

Portugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).
Yeah, they need a slight buff.

Ottoman
Somewhat like Portugal, fairly balanced, but still struggles in quite a few mu's. Not sure how to buff them without making them too strong, but i would like to see a slight XP boost to the church, so that they can get out more cards before 40.
Even if played correctly, still the weakest and, besides sioux, easiest civ to outplay.

Dutch
Earlier on patch one of the strongest, but after some nerfs they're currently slightly on the weak side. I suggest giving them a 5% boost to banks on Tulip Speculation card (so that the total bonus to banks from it is 25%). Or perhaps slightly buff Ruyters again.
fine

France
They are fine imo.
Somewhat fine. Strong skirms + 100 vill eco + 120mill pop is kinda op tho

Spain
Not sure where they are really.
One trick pony. After lancer nerf, only decent on andes nats. Anywhere else they kinda suck.

Russia
They are fine atm. Would still like the fort build limit up to 2 again tho :grin:
agreed

India
Not sure
as long as there is no way for them to counter huge mil pop, they will be mid-low tier.

China
Needs some changing, is mostly spam as it is now.
Revert all changes and try another approach, imo.

Japan
They are fine.
yessir

Iroquoise
Not sure
Bad civ. Similar to spain. Only good in andes nats, anywhere else kinda easy to outplay.

Aztec
They're ok atm, still struggles against towers and walls tho.
Somewhat fine. Their design is just horrible for treaty.

Sioux
Same as Aztec, strugles against walls and towers.
Dependend on maps. Right now complete crap on ESOC Andes, because traderoute just fucks everything up for them. On one side, people dont know how to play vs them properly, but they also dont understand how to play as sioux either. I still think that they are somewhat underrated and nobody besides me is playing them well (arrogant me op).

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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by dicktator_ »

Gichtenlord wrote:
martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.
Atleast the most versatile civs. There isnt a map where brit is not good on, because of their flexibility.

Portugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).
Yeah, they need a slight buff.

Ottoman
Somewhat like Portugal, fairly balanced, but still struggles in quite a few mu's. Not sure how to buff them without making them too strong, but i would like to see a slight XP boost to the church, so that they can get out more cards before 40.
Even if played correctly, still the weakest and, besides sioux, easiest civ to outplay.

Dutch
Earlier on patch one of the strongest, but after some nerfs they're currently slightly on the weak side. I suggest giving them a 5% boost to banks on Tulip Speculation card (so that the total bonus to banks from it is 25%). Or perhaps slightly buff Ruyters again.
fine

France
They are fine imo.
Somewhat fine. Strong skirms + 100 vill eco + 120mill pop is kinda op tho

Spain
Not sure where they are really.
One trick pony. After lancer nerf, only decent on andes nats. Anywhere else they kinda suck.

Russia
They are fine atm. Would still like the fort build limit up to 2 again tho :grin:
agreed

India
Not sure
as long as there is no way for them to counter huge mil pop, they will be mid-low tier.

China
Needs some changing, is mostly spam as it is now.
Revert all changes and try another approach, imo.

Japan
They are fine.
yessir

Iroquoise
Not sure
Bad civ. Similar to spain. Only good in andes nats, anywhere else kinda easy to outplay.

Aztec
They're ok atm, still struggles against towers and walls tho.
Somewhat fine. Their design is just horrible for treaty.

Sioux
Same as Aztec, strugles against walls and towers.
Dependend on maps. Right now complete crap on ESOC Andes, because traderoute just fucks everything up for them. On one side, people dont know how to play vs them properly, but they also dont understand how to play as sioux either. I still think that they are somewhat underrated and nobody besides me is playing them well (arrogant me op).


I'm a bit confused by your logic regarding Spain. The lancer nerf hits them hardest in nats on Andes, because of the 26 huaminca and how spammy those games tend to be. Anywhere else without ridiculous HI nats the changes should be an overall buff (+10 pop).

Dutch doesn't need any buffs right now imo, they are still hitting nearly 2100.

China we kinda nerfed to be like how no op China was played pre patch (no cowing no vill overpop). This presented the problem in that no op China plays a lot differently than actual China and so the nerfs ended up changing a lot where maybe changes were unnecessary. That said a cowing and/or vill overpop China would be extremely hard to balance. We'd have to need true military into the ground.

Ports are fine and underrated imo right now. Gets hard countered by faceroll Germany though.

Iro could be weak out of nats or off Andes but because of lack of testing it's hard to tell. They kinda did get nerfed on all sides.

I agree with everything else.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by Gichtenlord »

Yeah, lancer nerf hits them hardest in nats, but spain is also reliant on nats. Huamincas fit best for spain, because incans can compensate their atrocious anti cav.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.

Portugugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).

Ottoman
Somewhat like Portugal, fairly balanced, but still struggles in quite a few mu's. Not sure how to buff them without making them too strong, but i would like to see a slight XP boost to the church, so that they can get out more cards before 40.

Dutch
Earlier on patch one of the strongest, but after some nerfs they're currently slightly on the weak side. I suggest giving them a 5% boost to banks on Tulip Speculation card (so that the total bonus to banks from it is 25%). Or perhaps slightly buff Ruyters again.

France
They are fine imo.

Spain
Not sure where they are really.

Russia
They are fine atm. Would still like the fort build limit up to 2 again tho :grin:

India
Not sure

China
Needs some changing, is mostly spam as it is now.

Japan
They are fine.

Iroquoise
Not sure

Aztec
They're ok atm, still struggles against towers and walls tho.

Sioux
Same as Aztec, strugles against walls and towers.

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Germany
would change the settlerwagon card which is 35(?) % at the moment.

Ports
buff a hc card so huss get stronger without changing goons

dutch
agreed

rest idk
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.

Portugugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).

How do towers favour the first two mentioned civilisations more than the others?
I think 3 very useful royal-guard-type units is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by _NiceKING_ »

pecelot wrote:
martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.

How do towers favour the first two mentioned civilisations more than the others?

These civs have op art from HC, so their camping is too stronk

pecelot wrote:
martinspjuth wrote:Portugugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).

I think 3 very useful royal-guard-type units is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?

yup
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by Gichtenlord »

pecelot wrote:
martinspjuth wrote:Portugugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).

I think 3 very useful royal-guard-type units is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?


Royal guard up might be a bit too much, but a buff on hussar would definitely help port in their current situation.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by martinspjuth »

pecelot wrote:
martinspjuth wrote:Here are my thoughts about the current balance:

Germany/Britain
The two strongest civs atm. They have a good offense and if they run out of ress and/or are pushed back they can just camp with hc's/rockets and towers while rebuilding eco. My suggestion is to lower the build limit on towers to 4 or 5. This may or may not be enough to balance these civs at a whole, but it will promote less campy style of play.

Portugugal
A fairly balanced civ, but are still in a slight disadvantage (and too defensive) in many mu's. I suggest giving them royal upgrades for Hussar (or perhaps making their Hussar cheaper instead).

How do towers favour the first two mentioned civilisations more than the others?
I think 3 very useful royal-guard-type units is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?


Towers + hc's/rockets makes for a very strong camp. With their strong eco they can just fall back and camp while rebuilding eco anytime they need. It is very hard to punish such a camp or to rebuild eco as fast as those can.

Ye, royal guard upgrades for huss might be an exaggeration and a bit of standardizing (as Lukas said). But Port do need a slight buff. Their inf and goons are already top tier, so don't think a buff there would be optimal. Neither do I think a buff to their artillery would be good. The only remaining buffs I can think of are explorers, eco or hussars. Since explorers was what was nerfed in the first place i don't see them getting buffed. Eco is already quite strong with a 2250 boom and easy macro. A boost to their eco might make their camp/slow mort push too strong imo. So the only remaining choise i can think of, would be a buff to their Hussar. I do however agree that this might not be an optimal choise either, just not sure what would be better. If the current top tier civs (ger/britt/france) are nerfed, port could be fine tho.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Pfft sup players cant even read, treaty players higher iq confirmed
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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Hazza54321 wrote:Pfft sup players cant even read, treaty players higher iq confirmed

and more handsome.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

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yesh
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I have suggested that the base outpost limit be 4. In general, the civs who 'need' tower camps tend to have space in their deck for Extensive Fortifications. This means that civs like brit/ger who already have a strong camp don't really get the benefit. This is just in theory though. Would be interesting to see how it goes.

Another change I have brought up is reverting the 5% increase to the eco team cards for brit and ger. Specifically for ger, as they now get the same amount of cards as other civs allowing them to always get all eco cards out. These two civs are clearly above the rest and while not OP, they are extremely difficult to drain. Hopefully in conjunction with the towers, this will tweak their power down a notch.

I think port just seems a little underwhelming when compared to ger/brit.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by Gichtenlord »

pecelot wrote:yesh
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True beauty, my supremacian fellow
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by zoom »

Gichtenlord wrote:
zoom wrote:Of course there will be another patch. In fact, one was released just an hour ago, and the next one is coming in 23 more.

Before you continue to rant about the treaty patch whenever there is a possibility, try to fix your own patch first :flowers:
How very deluded you must be to think I am ranting about TP whenever there is a possibility, and that I have the power to fix my own patch.

'Tis truly the brink of insanity...
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by charlemagen »

Ports are in a good spot, we have fixed what ever problems they had on RE. They will not see a buff in this next path iteration unfortunately, they are still a top tier 1 civ, they are just a bit easier to exploit their weaknesses now.
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I actually worry that a buff to hussar would make ports too op, since right now most of their other units are very good (very good skirm great goon good musk great art). Don't underestimate the little buffs that we've sprinkled onto ports over the patch iterations. The church tech no longer reduces gathering of other resources. Natives are 8% (7%? idk the exact number) cheaper. Start army is overall buffed if you send tupi, which on patch you should (41 fully upped tupi). Speaking of tupi, they are actually the one of the best infinite native shipments right now, since cherokee and huron were nerfed harder. I like ports, the only hard matchups are germany (in or out of nats) or brits (in nats only) and I think that's because of the strength of those civs and not because of any weakness of port.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by _NiceKING_ »

dicktator_ wrote:Natives are 8% (7%? idk the exact number) cheaper.

10%
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_NiceKING_ wrote:
dicktator_ wrote:Natives are 8% (7%? idk the exact number) cheaper.

10%

lol I don't remember it being reverted back to 10%. It's fine I guess though, makes very very little difference between 8% and 10%.
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dicktator_ wrote:I actually worry that a buff to hussar would make ports too op, since right now most of their other units are very good (very good skirm great goon good musk great art). Don't underestimate the little buffs that we've sprinkled onto ports over the patch iterations. The church tech no longer reduces gathering of other resources. Natives are 8% (7%? idk the exact number) cheaper. Start army is overall buffed if you send tupi, which on patch you should (41 fully upped tupi). Speaking of tupi, they are actually the one of the best infinite native shipments right now, since cherokee and huron were nerfed harder. I like ports, the only hard matchups are germany (in or out of nats) or brits (in nats only) and I think that's because of the strength of those civs and not because of any weakness of port.


I'd completely agree with this. It's just compared to brit and ger where they fall short, which are over tweaked right now. Port are in their most balanced spot they've ever been. This isn't to say there won't be more changes to them, just currently there is no need.

Port, France, Russia and India seem to be the most healthy civs as a result of the patch. Otto, Dutch, Japan (maybe), Spain might need a few changes here and there, but nothing major. I might even put Spain as pretty healthy. Ger, Brit a slight nerf. China and Sioux need some pretty big changes as they're both a bit weird.

I have no idea on the state of Iro or Sioux. I think Sioux is still bad, just less so than before. Tbh almost need to rework their military eventually. I think Iro aren't too far off being in a good spot.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by charlemagen »

I've already said for Sioux to ever be good they would need a rework
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by paddy_jai »

Any idea about china rework?
like change banner army combo? buff eco?
when compared to some civs, like brit and germany, or france, jap, china army doesn't perform better than those civs with a weaker eco position.
(even ckn has higher attack, but short ranged. jap umi archer has higher attack too, but with full range of 20)

My idea is that either give a civ stronger eco with weaker military or stronger military but weaker eco( spain, iroq etc.)
if a civ has both, it is not balanced, like brit, both strong eco and units. (lb, musks, hussar, rocket)
i cant say china units are stronger. considering they are very vulnerable to cav and artilary, and fly crows sucks, heavy cannons are limited. (kesheck is weak because they low hp and very short range even though their attack is high, and cost coin which china collect slow, pike is decent but costs wood and they are just like running and dead, not as effective as musk).
The reason why china op in original game, is that china can afford the death caused by enemy cav and artillery because they can throw hand mortars, kesheck and rattens to enemy etc, all these cheap stuffs without considering eco, plus most of them cost food, in other words, they are all suicide units because last much shorter than Europe units. But now with eco nerf, they cant afford this units spamming, but they have no other way out. they either spam and push, or get out-ranged by other civs.

i used to play china a lot and i find it is very hard to get a k/d larger than 1 when fighting other civs, except russia with original game version. (I didnt pay attention to spent on units, maybe it is a better indicator to show how china units doing)
but the idea is that the more units died, more resource spent. based on the fact that most china units take 1 pop and 1 pop equals to about 100-140 resource (without patch) Even the op china units done badly compared to other civs, no need to mention the nerfed patch china. units.

I think maybe we can give buffalo back to china (buff eco) since most units of china costs food. one more thing i think the standard army (ckn and keshek) combo is very strange. when facing cav, keshek and pike combo serve the aim, when pushing, ckn and melee cav will be used. and keshek is short ranged and cant serve as a pushing unit.

i dont think what makes china vulnerable to cav/melee is the banner army combo, but the fact that their anti cav or anti melee units sucks. change the combo doesn't help much china anti cav/anti melee, no matter what standard army combo is, we still can make anti cav from Ming army (kesheck and pike) or Mongolia army (hand mortar and kesheck).

i know it is reasonable to have skirm type and goon type combo, but when there are like tons of kesheck on the field and they just die out of noth, they are useless in that situation. i think kesheck as a anti cav type unit should not be combine with the main force ckn, with a ratio of 3:2. when u wanna anti cav, these additional 3 ckn will do noth to anti cav, and when u wanna push, these 2 kesheck will be a waste of resource. maybe what china need is a cheap unit option to push effectively. the ckn and iron flail cav is too expensive imo. Thats why I don't think steppe rider is a joke. because their stat is not that bad (60 attach vs skirm) considering cost. they also serve as a meat shield in front for ckn and they can also be used to anti cav, when china mirror, steppe rider and double cav is the main army for anti cav. They take only one pop which mean there will be more cav in the field which may force enemy go musk or goons. double cavs are great but number is limited. what china need is cheap meat shield in front which cannot be double cavs, or pikes they all so expensive. So i think maybe bring steppe rider back to china is a good idea.
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Re: Will there be another TREATY PATCH AHAHA

Post by charlemagen »

We have some great ideas coming for china next patch. We are definitely doing some big changes

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