Indian Treaty Guide

[howlingwolfpaw]

Show hidden quotes

yes but you cant really rely on that as much hey are just kind of a bonus, you still are at the whim of gathering export which is slow and they don't come out at a gather point. You could move your consulate but then its at risk to going down thus losing bonuses for a while. I just used the shipments if I get pressed at my walls.

I always delete and rebuild my consulate after 40. Just tested it and the bonus remains even if you delete so there's literally no risk. You simply build it near the back of your fb if you're worried about mortars. You can seriously pump out a good amount of cannon, and it's better than not using it at all. They have 183 base damage, more than a normal falc. You get 3 at a time as well. You'd be silly not to use them.

I did not realize the bonus still is in effect with deleting consulate.

Gurka are good with mansabar, but its the plus 1 range really that does it all, Hp and attack are all comparative to other civs with skirms. but they can be produced much faster. Yes mansabars should be on stand still mode.

Yes so you protect them as much as you can. If you're fighting heads up, they should be alive most of the time. So your skirms will be better than other skirms most of the time. They cost 50 food 70 gold now, instead of the other way around. Sepoy cost 80 food 40 gold, which again makes it easier on your food. These are good changes imo.

I am not sure if the cost changes are so good. Indias coin gathering is super slow so once ur initial trade is done your in trouble. changing sepoy cost 10, and gurka by 20 is going to be thousands of coin less considering you will be making hundreds of each. Its much easier to just trade early and keep on food

I've actually found India to be more enjoyable. A lot less gimicky with the Gendarme start, and tigers are no longer broken. With the nerfs to gurkha/tiger food costs (gurkha costs swapped around, tigers down by 10 or so iirc) you can sustain a lot better.


I thought it was just sepoy that cost more coin now, they did it for gurka too? I think tigers are broken on the india side now. too little hp to make a big enough difference for the cost. I woudn't even try starting with gends now with the gend nerf. I would use the brit consulate army, and make more mahouts if facing a civ with lots of skirms.

Brits consulate army isn't that great. I still use Gendarme because you can get their fb vills/art/map control/give to ally. there's so many options, and they're still decent units. Tigers are weaker but they needed it. I still think they're decent, just not a crazy good meat shield anymore. Orange tiger costs 110 food, 309 hp and 38 attack. white tiger costs 120 food, 335 hp and 35 attack (with brit cons)

I think it would be fun to experiment with stacking tiger attack with auras. basically because its like when you have to defend from a dog, one dog a person can manage, but 2 dogs attacking is very difficult to defend from, so their attacking power is strengthened through numbers.


What about otto brigade? 13 jans, 3 great bombards? Pretty good too if you think you wont lose to culvs

I have used ottos before like once. I got the 2 bombards and the brigade army for like 5 big bomards, and had like 3 mahouts ans seige ele and some inf and tigers.... people don't expect that. makes for a strong position but slower to press forward, whie the gends you can grab that territory, but gends aren't really anything impressive or scary anymore so I think the other brigade armies are more viable. ports are good too, just have to invest and plan for a couple extra minutes of switching alliances.

[ocemilky]

Show hidden quotes

Yes so you protect them as much as you can. If you're fighting heads up, they should be alive most of the time. So your skirms will be better than other skirms most of the time. They cost 50 food 70 gold now, instead of the other way around. Sepoy cost 80 food 40 gold, which again makes it easier on your food. These are good changes imo.

I am not sure if the cost changes are so good. Indias coin gathering is super slow so once ur initial trade is done your in trouble. changing sepoy cost 10, and gurka by 20 is going to be thousands of coin less considering you will be making hundreds of each. Its much easier to just trade early and keep on food

It means that you can go for a higher trade and trade later as your food costs aren't nearly as high as before. Remember mahouts were nerfed a little and their food cost brought down too. Coin has never been a problem with india except in 2+ hour games, in which case you fight for trade posts. It's still not a problem, just have 20 vills on gold after 10 - 15 mins of fighting and you're sweet. These changes make India so much better in the long run, seriously. You can be aggressive for longer and are way harder to drain. There's like no down side to these changes.

[charlemagen]

India IMO got some of the biggest buffs on patch. They are still extremely hard to play at top level vs other tier one civs. In order for India to win they have to play perfectly and abuse every advantage they see. That is why, imo Dick and Lukas are the last two players that can play India in high level games and be moderately successful. It is unfortunate that in order for India to be, 'good' at all levels of play we would have to seriously standardize or rework some of India's most unique features. For these reasons we will more than likely not touch India in this next patch iteration.

[ocemilky]

With such strong individual units, I think India should have a high skill cap anyway. The strong but high pop cost cav with slower training inf require pretty solid macro. Regardless, I think they're in a good place as playing the civ actually teaches you these skills - post 40 you don't need good macro with port or spain to excel at the civ. It's pretty difficult to play around their 32 range mort as well. Such an interesting civ to play.

[forgrin]

I'm just a nub at treaty but I love me some India.

Edit: I have an actual question (lol) how many hunts does India need? It seems you might be able to get away with just 2 but I'm not really sure.

[howlingwolfpaw]

I think the choice not to touch india while recognizing its limitations leads to perpetual new patch iterations. Since I am of the understanding that most of the changes will be buffs to weaker civs rather than nerfs to powerful ones will lead to an even greater gap.

I certainly don't want india to become the best civ, then everyone would play it and it wouldn't be as fun to play her, but it is also disheartening on just how much skill and micro to takes to play just to reach par to other civs.

[ocemilky]

I think the choice not to touch india while recognizing its limitations leads to perpetual new patch iterations. Since I am of the understanding that most of the changes will be buffs to weaker civs rather than nerfs to powerful ones will lead to an even greater gap.

I certainly don't want india to become the best civ, then everyone would play it and it wouldn't be as fun to play her, but it is also disheartening on just how much skill and micro to takes to play just to reach par to other civs.

Ummm what? So you don't want the OP civs to be nerfed? You don't want the bad civs to be buffed? Ok...

[howlingwolfpaw]

obviously that is not the case. the case is that I am of understanding the focus of changes is that poorer civs will be buffed rather than OP civs be nerfed to achieve balance. But with India being left untouched the disparity of weakness will be greater.

[ocemilky]

obviously that is not the case. the case is that I am of understanding the focus of changes is that poorer civs will be buffed rather than OP civs be nerfed to achieve balance. But with India being left untouched the disparity of weakness will be greater.

India left untouched? OP civs didn't get nerfed?? What are you talking about?

[howlingwolfpaw]

for the next patch iteration.

[_NiceKING_]

Don't be so sure

[howlingwolfpaw]

India IMO got some of the biggest buffs on patch. They are still extremely hard to play at top level vs other tier one civs. In order for India to win they have to play perfectly and abuse every advantage they see. That is why, imo Dick and Lukas are the last two players that can play India in high level games and be moderately successful. It is unfortunate that in order for India to be, 'good' at all levels of play we would have to seriously standardize or rework some of India's most unique features. For these reasons we will more than likely not touch India in this next patch iteration.

this is what i am talking about.

[Lukas_L99]

India IMO got some of the biggest buffs on patch. They are still extremely hard to play at top level vs other tier one civs. In order for India to win they have to play perfectly and abuse every advantage they see. That is why, imo Dick and Lukas are the last two players that can play India in high level games and be moderately successful. It is unfortunate that in order for India to be, 'good' at all levels of play we would have to seriously standardize or rework some of India's most unique features. For these reasons we will more than likely not touch India in this next patch iteration.

this is what i am talking about.

Could you elaborate? India is in a good spot right now, maybe kinda weak against civs with lots of military pop (France, Dutch, Ger) but still okayish. A million times better than on RE for sure.

[howlingwolfpaw]

read what top player says about them, they have no room for error just to be decent. I read in another post from dicktator that he basically got frustrated with them after losing and playing perfect with them.

Because of train speeds they are pretty much only playable on andes. other civs with poor train mechanics like natives were fixed with huge train speed buffs in other techs. India uses 2 cards and a tech and cav still way too slow. the only unit remarkably better that deserves such a slow train speed is the sepoy. and tigers

[charlemagen]

If you want India changed in a specific way you need to be specific in your demands. So far all you have come up with is buff urami (india already has 3 really good inf shipments so it would not make sense to give another), buff tigers, and reduce train speeds. India is a very unique civ, we plan to keep them that way. If that means its going to take a while longer than other civs to balance, then so be it. We will not standardize India but find new and exciting ways to make them viable.

[Lukas_L99]

read what top player says about them, they have no room for error just to be decent. I read in another post from dicktator that he basically got frustrated with them after losing and playing perfect with them.

Because of train speeds they are pretty much only playable on andes. other civs with poor train mechanics like natives were fixed with huge train speed buffs in other techs. India uses 2 cards and a tech and cav still way too slow. the only unit remarkably better that deserves such a slow train speed is the sepoy. and tigers

I don't see your first point being a problem, isn't it something good if a civ is viable but needs a certain skill level to master? Not all civs can't be ezpz like Port or French.

I don't think India is only playable on Andes, I think they're decent on non-incan maps as well, people just don't play those maps often enough. By the way I personally didn't agree with the faster training for Aztec units and it was just a simple solution to make Iros playable out of nats on andes as they don't have any fast training cards except for artillery.

[howlingwolfpaw]

same thing happened with japan and dymos, now that they do not rely on dymos they can have a larger pop army and still have the option to maintain a strong front line, or be mobile with the dymos for a sneak attack/ subisidize in battle production.

I may not agree with the changes either but I feel like since they have been done they leave certain aspects of india behind. So in effect not wanting india standardize you do it pretty much to all the other unique civs.

Though you may not like my suggestions you offer none to counter as solutions. There are only a few certain variables, unit strength, train time, pop space, economic factor, and unit type/ selection. You dont want to make urumi viable with faster card speed(no good reason for it other than your own play style, thus creating less variety. Vs some civs urumi make good sense and don't need all 3 unit shipments, which also makes it unique) unit strengths are pretty much where they should be. I think train time should work like ottos where the inf trains slow but cav train normal speeds. Pop space is now adjusted and better, economy is fine. They are really almost there.

[Lukas_L99]

same thing happened with japan and dymos, now that they do not rely on dymos they can have a larger pop army and still have the option to maintain a strong front line, or be mobile with the dymos for a sneak attack/ subisidize in battle production.

I may not agree with the changes either but I feel like since they have been done they leave certain aspects of india behind. So in effect not wanting india standardize you do it pretty much to all the other unique civs.

Though you may not like my suggestions you offer none to counter as solutions. There are only a few certain variables, unit strength, train time, pop space, economic factor, and unit type/ selection. You dont want to make urumi viable with faster card speed(no good reason for it other than your own play style, thus creating less variety. Vs some civs urumi make good sense and don't need all 3 unit shipments, which also makes it unique) unit strengths are pretty much where they should be. I think train time should work like ottos where the inf trains slow but cav train normal speeds. Pop space is now adjusted and better, economy is fine. They are really almost there.

Japan's train times from daymios got slowed down so that you don't have the shogun running to your walls, spawn 10 mortars in 5 seconds to then run into your base with daymios and spam ashis. Obviously we needed to make train times from barracks/stables a little bit quicker to make Japan viable, also they still need 8 pop for the shogun and a daymio, that's not much more pop than on RE.

I think that Iros were handled poorly (I was also part of the changes for sure), but for the moment we don't know any other option. I like how they are on RE but they're probably too bad out of nats, or we're just not good enough with them. For all the other civs I don't see that much of standardizing to be honest, probably China with the keshik/chu ko nu army.

On the one hand you're criticizing the standardization of civs but on the other hand want India to have faster training times. I personally am trying to make the urumi shipment viable as it is right now and I think they're a decent shipment if you can handle it well with the 1300 wood shipment (also I despise chakrams, imo they're useless except vs British).

[howlingwolfpaw]

logically stopping that kind of dymo play from japan was the right decision, but normally they would have 2 more dymos for 8 fighting pop.

I don't know enough about iros as they are now, I rarely have played them even on RE treaty. The standardization is that most civs are pretty fast training at the moment. even ottos train inf a little faster now. yet india everything is really slow.

I really think making urumi playable is going to be what india needs even more than train time. they are what makes india good in supremacy and I think should reflect that in TR. But so far in talking with people working on it that has been resisted except now by you.

[Gichtenlord]

How does urumi help india? It wont fix any of their problems. With urumis they will still lose vs the same civs as before and only make them stronger in the mus in which they were already good at.
Doesnt seem like a good/necessary buff for me.

[howlingwolfpaw]

well then the question is why do they to those civs, and why do they win vs other civs. I am not sure what the consensus of those are. but urumi help india a lot serving as a supplement for artillery to kill infnatry masses, support mahouts synergistically, and break lines of goons.

[Gichtenlord]

well then the question is why do they to those civs, and why do they win vs other civs

India has long training times
-> fights in average with less mill pop than most civs
-> keep on trading worse

Elephants are quite inefficient units:
-howdahs overkill handcav
-mahouts awful pathing
-elephants are easy to target with almost no overkill -> efficient micro

Almost no way of dealing with civs which have more than 100 mill pop.
- bad and expensive cannons from consulate
- mahout dont do their job as splash damage unit well

Reason they win vs other civs:
- civ doesnt have strong artillery either
- eco is too weak compared to indias + trade not efficient enough (e.g otto)

[howlingwolfpaw]

yep exactly. thats why I have advocated for faster train time for elephants and possibly tiger.

not sure what can be done with mahout pathing. I would suggest giving them a 1 range to siege to see if that helps with the glitch of them not besieging when too close to other units. Elephants can either be really good or really bad so I am ok where the rest of the stats are. i think mahouts are inefficient at killing art though as fast as 5-6 pop of cav go . they just require a lot of micro.

urumi help mahouts synergistically creating a very deadly melee wall when tigers are added too. some of the best out there. they are good units and very unique to the civ as a light infantry that actually counters what is supposed to counter it. in large groups they can actually kill armies faster than artillery can and are indias method of dealing with infantry. to make up or their awful artillery.

maybe change consulate armies so they are cheaper but only train cannons instead of adding cav


I dunno what else could we do? put a gatlin gun on top of the flail elephant? lol j/k

[Gichtenlord]

yep exactly. thats why I have advocated for faster train time for elephants and possibly tiger.
i think the issue is for infantry. Not cav nor tigers. With perfect macro you would always queue one tiger on each explorer.

not sure what can be done with mahout pathing. I would suggest giving them a 1 range to siege to see if that helps with the glitch of them not besieging when too close to other units. Elephants can either be really good or really bad so I am ok where the rest of the stats are. i think mahouts are inefficient at killing art though as fast as 5-6 pop of cav go . they just require a lot of micro.
mahouts are not really supposed to to much damage vs single units, but be useful vs a group of units due to splash.

urumi help mahouts synergistically creating a very deadly melee wall when tigers are added too. some of the best out there. they are good units and very unique to the civ as a light infantry that actually counters what is supposed to counter it. in large groups they can actually kill armies faster than artillery can and are indias method of dealing with infantry. to make up or their awful artillery.
Im afraid that urumis will not be as good as you might think. First, dont forget that you will skip a 1,3k wood card, have to pay for urumis and block some pop of you until they arrive. They have to be super eficient to compensate it


maybe change consulate armies so they are cheaper but only train cannons instead of adding cav
I had this idea to change consulate to something similar like firepit. You can cancel a fraction and join a new fraction in a second and each of these fractions (ger, port, russia,...etc.) have a new bonus.
Lets say port gives you +0.5x multiplier vs heavy inf for your skirms and brit 2 more range for your cannons (just out of my mind now).
Each fraction also gets stronger more unique shipments which are also cheaper or easier than now to acquire. Like long range morts from port, lbs/rockets from brits.
This is judt an idea and mostly just brainstormed, but Id really like it for tad civs, since they lack a solid gameplay mechanic

I dunno what else could we do? put a gatlin gun on top of the flail elephant? lol j/k

[martinspjuth]

yep exactly. thats why I have advocated for faster train time for elephants and possibly tiger.
i think the issue is for infantry. Not cav nor tigers. With perfect macro you would always queue one tiger on each explorer.

not sure what can be done with mahout pathing. I would suggest giving them a 1 range to siege to see if that helps with the glitch of them not besieging when too close to other units. Elephants can either be really good or really bad so I am ok where the rest of the stats are. i think mahouts are inefficient at killing art though as fast as 5-6 pop of cav go . they just require a lot of micro.
mahouts are not really supposed to to much damage vs single units, but be useful vs a group of units due to splash.

urumi help mahouts synergistically creating a very deadly melee wall when tigers are added too. some of the best out there. they are good units and very unique to the civ as a light infantry that actually counters what is supposed to counter it. in large groups they can actually kill armies faster than artillery can and are indias method of dealing with infantry. to make up or their awful artillery.
Im afraid that urumis will not be as good as you might think. First, dont forget that you will skip a 1,3k wood card, have to pay for urumis and block some pop of you until they arrive. They have to be super eficient to compensate it


maybe change consulate armies so they are cheaper but only train cannons instead of adding cav
I had this idea to change consulate to something similar like firepit. You can cancel a fraction and join a new fraction in a second and each of these fractions (ger, port, russia,...etc.) have a new bonus.
Lets say port gives you +0.5x multiplier vs heavy inf for your skirms and brit 2 more range for your cannons (just out of my mind now).
Each fraction also gets stronger more unique shipments which are also cheaper or easier than now to acquire. Like long range morts from port, lbs/rockets from brits.
This is judt an idea and mostly just brainstormed, but Id really like it for tad civs, since they lack a solid gameplay mechanic

I dunno what else could we do? put a gatlin gun on top of the flail elephant? lol j/k

THIS! Every point is spot on!