Message from Diarouga

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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by deleted_user »

diarouga wrote:Frankly, how would you feel, if after investing a lot of time in the game, and in ESOC, you weren't allowed to play in a tournament because some people hate you?

Hate is a strong word and I wouldn't be surprised if many of the staff do not hate you yet still remain adamant about the ban. For instance, I can recognize all the hard work you've put towards EP3 and still be of the belief that creating dozens of accounts to ban dodge and spam the forums with hitler-ryans is a near permanent ban-able offense.

diarouga wrote:but also because of the offensive writing style: "we decided that you hadn't served enough time" What does it mean? Am I a slave for ESOC?

Poor choice of words? Perhaps. Are you able to twist those words around to conclude you are an ESOC "slave?" Not really.

diarouga wrote:After that, how can one claim that I should be banned because I haven't respected some staff member's work?

See the first response; your help with EP3 and bombarding the forums with spam from dozens of accounts are separate acts. One can claim that you've disrespected staff members' work because your actions have deliberately disrespected staff members' work in the past. It's as simple as that. Though your work on EP3 should not be disregarded when talking about the future nature of your account status I felt your passion to work on that project was a product of your attachment to the game not as a means to help ESOC out of the kindness of your heart.

diarouga wrote:At least they are thanked by the community, I'm permanently banned.

And ESOC staff have every right to be thanked by the community. And yet they are also not without faults of their own and are also subject to criticism from the community. Similarly, you are also thanked for your EP3 work and simultaneously banned for retaliating not just with simple, arguable grievances but with excessive, rash behavior that was completely justifiable, in my opinion, of a ban. A ban, mind I remind you, that was not permanent, as you have been unbanned before and broken site rules again. We are past a 2nd chance. That being said, I would agree the ban should not be indefinite and should expire at some point: that point of which I do not think is now.

I struggled to find real sincerity in this post. As usual, you begin apologizing when you want to participate in an ESOC event and never as a result, from what I have garnered, as genuine goodwill. I do not doubt that there is now and probably most likely always will be bad blood between you and the staff with past transgressions on either side however I do feel the bulk of the transgressions stem from your behavior.

I sympathize with you. I sympathize with goodspeed's posts though I caution against creating special allowances for players of special skill. I also caution the staff against threatening to leave if x action happens the definition of which, however, is not blackmail but nonetheless borderline unacceptable. I'm disappointed in those staff. Yet I do not believe this particular response from staff members has any sort of merit on when your ban should expire but does highlight an issue in the team that goodspeed has pointed out that, quite frankly, should be addressed internally.

It's very unfortunate you received mixed messages from the business team though it appears the user who promised you you could play is no longer a part of the team nor a part of the majority of that vote. You have been wronged in that way however this wrong is not a justified reversal for your ban.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by __Uhlan__ »

The fact the that staffs vowed to leave is disgusting, honestly I have zero respect for bramboy and jerom. Must feel good to boss people around on a 10 year old game and con the only people doing something good for the game. Actully a matter of fact it's fucking sad and pathetic. I can't even understand how they are part of the staff, becuase they write out the tourney rules? lol. fucking joke. hey maybe I'll get banned for this one? Diarouga literally can't do harm playing if he schedules the games through discord & cant post on the forums.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by deleted_user0 »

its funny that people act as if those 35 recced games by diarouga vs hazza make him the only guy who has ever done anything for this community, then attack people who have spent way more time and energy dealing with alot more meanial stuff and on top just ignore the fact that diarouga has spent about 3x as much energy on tearing this place down than he has on contributing to it.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by benj89 »

__Uhlan__ wrote:The fact the that staffs vowed to leave is disgusting, honestly I have zero respect for bramboy and jerom. Must feel good to boss people around on a 10 year old game and con the only people doing something good for the game. Actully a matter of fact it's fucking sad and pathetic. I can't even understand how they are part of the staff, becuase they write out the tourney rules? lol. fucking joke. hey maybe I'll get banned for this one? Diarouga literally can't do harm playing if he schedules the games through discord & cant post on the forums.

chill, people are trying to have a discussion here
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Jaeger »

benj89 wrote:
ovi12 wrote:How about make a compromise? If Diarouga gets 1 2 or 3rd place, he only gets half the money?

no that's wrong

Why
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by deleted_user0 »

bpds vs diarouga IRL smackdown and winner gets unbanned?
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by momuuu »

benj89 wrote:
Jerom wrote:There was a certain behaviorial pattern that Diarouga exhibited that led to a ban and even very recently he has shown to be persisting in that pattern. Even this post is really typical for him. If you then were to consider the ban, why he was banned and how he has behaved afterwards, and consider the rule that was agreed upon that banned people cant play in tournaments, then you could reach the reasonable conclusion that you'd not let someone play in a tournament.

Indeed I don't know much about this situation, but I think this whole "moral" approach like if we were dealing with a society at large isn't appropriate, when a handful of people are willing to do meaningful/time consuming work for the community. As goodspeed already mentioned, a vote among all the staff members could have been a way to deal with this situation.

Jerom wrote:That are the facts. "this whole situation started with garja" is not a fact, thats a lie spread by diarouga. He's rather keen on manipulating the truth, trying to make esoc seem bad and himself seem innocent or at least more innocent than he is. At least, thats how it appears to me.

Yet I have a feeling you dont know much about this situation neither. I'm pretty sure people who were involved in it agree that he was unfairly treated to begin with.

If we were to take a look at the facts: at the time of the first incidents I was a moderator, perfectly aware of all he did and as directly involved with the decision to ban. I can assure you he was not unfairly treated at that time. I also have been staff throughout and have been a direct witness of the second time he got banned. Im also aware of and able to read the most direct places he has had exposure afterwards: the 2v2 organisation and ep forums, aswell as any direct staff interaction.

I think I would be amongst the people most aware of the facts regarding this situation.

Again, I am not stating an opinion. I am merely stating facts.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by benj89 »

ovi12 wrote:
benj89 wrote:
ovi12 wrote:How about make a compromise? If Diarouga gets 1 2 or 3rd place, he only gets half the money?

no that's wrong

Why

what's the logic here?
If he were to participate based on vote which would supposedly settle the case, he would still be penalized?
besides, I consider it irrelevant. the issue here:
diarouga doesn't care about some extra $$$, he wants to play to show he is the best.
some staff members don't want him to participate in a project they spent hours on for reason already mentioned.
money is barely relevant to all this
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by benj89 »

Jerom wrote:If we were to take a look at the facts: at the time of the first incidents I was a moderator, perfectly aware of all he did and as directly involved with the decision to ban. I can assure you he was not unfairly treated at that time. I also have been staff throughout and have been a direct witness of the second time he got banned. Im also aware of and able to read the most direct places he has had exposure afterwards: the 2v2 organisation and ep forums, aswell as any direct staff interaction.

I think I would be amongst the people most aware of the facts regarding this situation.

Again, I am not stating an opinion. I am merely stating facts.


Ok so you knew everything and came to the conclusion that he should be banned, but then you realized that few other staff members didn't share your point of view. Instead of threatening to leave, why didn't you guys decided to settle this with a vote?
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by momuuu »

benj89 wrote:
Jerom wrote:If we were to take a look at the facts: at the time of the first incidents I was a moderator, perfectly aware of all he did and as directly involved with the decision to ban. I can assure you he was not unfairly treated at that time. I also have been staff throughout and have been a direct witness of the second time he got banned. Im also aware of and able to read the most direct places he has had exposure afterwards: the 2v2 organisation and ep forums, aswell as any direct staff interaction.

I think I would be amongst the people most aware of the facts regarding this situation.

Again, I am not stating an opinion. I am merely stating facts.


Ok so you knew everything and came to the conclusion that he should be banned, but then you realized that few other staff members didn't share your point of view. Instead of threatening to leave, why didn't you guys decided to settle this with a vote?

I think the people in charge decided he should be banned and thus did. Thats long ago however.

Other than that, you appear to be drawing some conclusion with no real material to base that conclusion on, which confuses me. I think you'd make a much better point if you tried to look at the available facts.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by benj89 »

Jerom wrote:I think the people in charge decided he should be banned and thus did. Thats long ago however.

So these people decided he should be banned (h2o, noel, mitoe and a few other) and now regret their decision? Or was it bramboy in charge of that decision, a member of the media team?
Jerom wrote:Other than that, you appear to be drawing some conclusion with no real material to base that conclusion on, which confuses me. I think you'd make a much better point if you tried to look at the available facts.

I'm "merely" trying to understand the facts that you claim to know, since obviously that's an issue that concerns some previous staff members/donators/active members of the community. Even the che revolucion squad got split it seems, that's something
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by momuuu »

benj89 wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think the people in charge decided he should be banned and thus did. Thats long ago however.

So these people decided he should be banned, and now regret their decision? I'm assuming noel, h2o etc? Or was it bramboy in charge, a member of the media team?
Jerom wrote:Other than that, you appear to be drawing some conclusion with no real material to base that conclusion on, which confuses me. I think you'd make a much better point if you tried to look at the available facts.

I'm "merely" trying to understand the facts that you claim to know, since obviously that's an issue that concerns some previous staff members/donators/active members of the community.

I dont really know what other people think. I think back during the first ban we'd be looking at garja, me, n0el and papist as moderators. The second ban I dont know exactly, it was pezet, edeholland and some others but I dont know who exactly.

I dont really know all about the stuff diarouga is presenting here though. Except that I dont trust anything diarouga says given his track record.

But maybe this thread could give you the feeling that theres a lot going on behind the scenes when it comes to big decisions like this, and that you shouldnt randomly believe the things someone like diarouga claims. I think its usually safe to assume that esoc isnt a group of powerhungry dictators. Unfortunately this doesnt seem to be a common assumption, I dont really know why.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by benj89 »

Jerom wrote:
benj89 wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think the people in charge decided he should be banned and thus did. Thats long ago however.

So these people decided he should be banned, and now regret their decision? I'm assuming noel, h2o etc? Or was it bramboy in charge, a member of the media team?
Jerom wrote:Other than that, you appear to be drawing some conclusion with no real material to base that conclusion on, which confuses me. I think you'd make a much better point if you tried to look at the available facts.

I'm "merely" trying to understand the facts that you claim to know, since obviously that's an issue that concerns some previous staff members/donators/active members of the community.

I dont really know what other people think. I think back during the first ban we'd be looking at garja, me, n0el and papist as moderators. The second ban I dont know exactly, it was pezet, edeholland and some others but I dont know who exactly.

I dont really know all about the stuff diarouga is presenting here though. Except that I dont trust anything diarouga says given his track record.

But maybe this thread could give you the feeling that theres a lot going on behind the scenes when it comes to big decisions like this, and that you shouldnt randomly believe the things someone like diarouga claims. I think its usually safe to assume that esoc isnt a group of powerhungry dictators. Unfortunately this doesnt seem to be a common assumption, I dont really know why.

For the ban I was referring to one from the incoming tournament. This should have been the result of a vote.

Indeed I wouldn't necessarily trust him neither, but these situations aren't black & white and all this drama isn't helping the community, too much frustration is growing from it. I think slightly more organisation in the staff decision process would resolve a lot of these issues, and to me you guys are overall doing a great job. These are just minor incidents that shouldn't reach this magnitude.
At least the tournaments drama between players is fun and arguably constructive, but as you know this one really isn't
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by momuuu »

For all I care we have rules and Id like to see those followed, but some think otherwise.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Jaeger »

benj89 wrote:what's the logic here?
If he were to participate based on vote which would supposedly settle the case, he would still be penalized?
besides, I consider it irrelevant. the issue here:
diarouga doesn't care about some extra $$$, he wants to play to show he is the best.
some staff members don't want him to participate in a project they spent hours on for reason already mentioned.
money is barely relevant to all this

I never said it's a 50/50 compromise, it's just something to give to the guys who want him banned. Maybe it's enough for some people that he doesn't take much money from the community. A few hundred dollars is not nothing.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Gichtenlord »

ovi12 wrote:
benj89 wrote:what's the logic here?
If he were to participate based on vote which would supposedly settle the case, he would still be penalized?
besides, I consider it irrelevant. the issue here:
diarouga doesn't care about some extra $$$, he wants to play to show he is the best.
some staff members don't want him to participate in a project they spent hours on for reason already mentioned.
money is barely relevant to all this

I never said it's a 50/50 compromise, it's just something to give to the guys who want him banned. Maybe it's enough for some people that he doesn't take much money from the community. A few hundred dollars is not nothing.

I dont think its about the money at all.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by Dolan »

I think, just like in law, there should be a separation of concerns as to punishment (like the Double Jeopardy Clause for the 5th Amendment). Nobody should be doubly punished for one offence.

  • If Diarouga misbehaved on the forums, he should be banned/warned on the forums. (The ban should have a definite term, after which it should be lifted. Indefinite bans should only be given to forum members who did something illegal.)
  • If he misbehaved in a tourney, he should be banned/disqualified from that tourney.

There shouldn't be any crosstalk between these two jurisdictions. That's why (at least that was the case when I was admin) a tourney admin is a separate function from site admin, with totally different responsibilities. A site admin has no business whatsoever to decide on tourney issues and vice-versa.

So it makes no sense to suppress someone's right to participate in a tourney for offences brought to the site members and staff. Even though the site was created around the concept of organising tourneys, still they are two separate things altogether (and have separate staff and regulations). I don't know who even decided to mix tourney issues with site issues?

Ultimately, if ESOC staff cannot solve a decision-making deadlock, I think it's fair to pass the decision to the donors. If donors vote to allow Diarouga to play, then so be it. Maybe donor votes should be weighed according to the amount of their donation. It's fair to consult donors, since tourneys are alive thanks to them, not only to ESOC staff.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Dolan wrote:I think, just like in law, there should be a separation of concerns as to punishment (like the Double Jeopardy Clause for the 5th Amendment). Nobody should be doubly punished for one offence.

  • If Diarouga misbehaved on the forums, he should be banned/warned on the forums. (The ban should have a definite term, after which it should be lifted. Indefinite bans should only be given to forum members who did something illegal.)
  • If he misbehaved in a tourney, he should be banned/disqualified from that tourney.

There shouldn't be any crosstalk between these two jurisdictions. That's why (at least that was the case when I was admin) a tourney admin is a separate function from site admin, with totally different responsibilities. A site admin has no business whatsoever to decide on tourney issues and vice-versa.

So it makes no sense to suppress someone's right to participate in a tourney for offences brought to the site members and staff. Even though the site was created around the concept of organising tourneys, still they are two separate things altogether (and have separate staff and regulations). I don't know who even decided to mix tourney issues with site issues?

Ultimately, if ESOC staff cannot solve a decision-making deadlock, I think it's fair to pass the decision to the donors. If donors vote to allow Diarouga to play, then so be it. Maybe donor votes should be weighed according to the amount of their donation. It's fair to consult donors, since tourneys are alive thanks to them, not only to ESOC staff.


That's not how it works. If you go to jail (aka get banned from society) you aren't allowed to compete in any sporting events. Whereas if you are banned from sporting events (banned from tournament), for doping for example (caught maphacking), then you are allowed to roam freely in other parts of society and do as you like.

There are some general rules on how to behave with each other, specially since this is supposed to be a community, and should come together instead of being at each others throats all the time. If you break these rules and make clear time and time again you aren't mature enough to be part of the community, then you get banned from the community, and also won't be allowed to enjoy the fruits of the work that community.

If you sit out the ban you can return to the community afterwards and start with a clean slate, and this will be sooner or later depending on your behaviour in the mean time. If you show a willingness to change your ways and do good things in the mean time, you can come back sooner. If you keep behaving like a prick, it will take longer. Diarouga did a good thing for the patch and the 2v2 tournament, and then he did some dumb stuff in between as well.

It's not strange that he has to sit out his ban, which was extended because he dodged it not so long ago...
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Dolan »

Getting banned from the forums is not similar to going to jail, though.
It's not an analogy that works in this situation, I think.

And there are a few countries in the world where they allow inmates to have access to internet. So you see, somewhere on this planet it's possible to be in jail and participate in an esports competition. :P

Iamgrunt was never part of the AOE3 community, ever. And still he participated in tourneys. What if he went on RTS Sanct and started flaming ppl calling them noobs? Should he have been banned from WCG tourneys? Do you think anyone at WCG would have even cared?

And site administration is and should be separate from tourney administration, which is a seasonal thing. When I was site admin and Mitoe and H2O were tourney admins, I just had no business whatsoever with what they decided on tourney issues. This seems to be a new thing at ESOC.

Did they ban Bpds from taking part in tourneys because he had been banned on the forums?

I think concerns should be separated here.

Also I would be curious to know what is donors' opinion, since they are the ones who support tourneys, in the first place.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by deleted_user0 »

Dolan wrote:Getting banned from the forums is not similar to going to jail, though.
It's not an analogy that works in this situation, I think.


In my opinion it is. If you break general rules of society on how to behave, you go to jail. If you break general rules of forum on how to behave, u get banned.

And there are a few countries in the world where they allow inmates to have access to internet. So you see, somewhere on this planet it's possible to be in jail and participate in an esports competition. :P


Maybe, but i'm not sure if any respectable organisation or team would let convicts participate. I'm not saying diarouga cant log on to eso btw.

Iamgrunt was never part of the AOE3 community, ever. And still he participated in tourneys. What if he went on RTS Sanct and started flaming ppl calling them noobs? Should he have been banned from WCG tourneys? Do you think anyone at WCG would have even cared?


If that would have been against their rules, yes. If he had been disrespectful, flamed and discriminated against members of wcg staff, posted their pictures with hitler moustaches online, surely he wouldnt have been allowed to participate. Do you think? Muhammed Ali broke the rules of society (As unfair as they may have even been) and he went to jail and he wasnt allowed to box. That's simply how it works. He stood by his principles atleast.

And site administration is and should be separate from tourney administration, which is a seasonal thing. When I was site admin and Mitoe and H2O were tourney admins, I just had no business whatsoever with what they decided on tourney issues. This seems to be a new thing at ESOC.


That's another discussion. I agree tournament staff should be separate, but that doesnt mean that their should be no repercussions on what u do on the forums. It's as simple as that.

Did they ban Bpds from taking part in tourneys because he had been banned on the forums?

yes actually, but nobody gives a fuck cuz hes not top player. they also banned a few other ppl in same fashion. again, no fucks given. kinda hypocrite dont you think?

I think concerns should be separated here.


i disagree, already explained why.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by momuuu »

I think it's hard to see esoc and tournaments as two distinctly seperate things. The same people participate, the same people organise them.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I'm not sure you can claim that something is fair or not as a 'fact' as though there can't be dispute about it. The staff does plenty of unfair things but just because they claim it is fair doesn't make it a 'fact'.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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