Message from Diarouga

[Goodspeed]

Good to know that doing some good things for esoc should get you special priviliges in the minds of some ppl.

Your high moral standards don't apply to this community, if they even apply to real life. Rewarding contributions is how you get more contributions. At the very least, helping out with the patch shows that there is some good will on Diarouga's side. This should matter imo.

This is how it works in every normal society.

I don't think you can expect ESOC to be like a normal society, and trying to be wouldn't be very constructive if you ask me. There are so many ways a small gaming forum/community differs from a real life society it seems rather pointless. And while in a "normal society" it shouldn't matter, Diarouga is a great player and many people want to see him play in this event. It should matter here because with the health of the community in mind we simply can't afford to be selective.

Its fine that hes doing stuff to redeem himself, and im not against second chances, but hes already past that.

How do you figure he's past that? Seems presumptuous. Besides, he's young, and we all do stupid shit when we're young don't we? Ironically, in your "normal society", Diarouga being a minor would actually count for a lot.

Using the size of the community as an argument to allow transgressions is just silly and puts you on a slippery slope at the bottom of which you will not be able to really draw any lines on what is allowed and what isnt.

And indeed I don't think those lines should exist here. I think every particular situation requires a different approach, and having set-in-stone rules isn't necessarily the way to go for this community. You need rules to fall back on, but in the end strictly following a set of rules won't always lead you to the correct decision especially if said rules were conjured up on a sunday afternoon by 1 person. I think this situation called for Diarouga remaining banned on the forum but being allowed to play in the event (and yes, this is but an opinion). It seems he was told that would be the case. Do you think the way this decision was reversed would be acceptable in your ideal society? Did you read Bramboy's message? Press would have a field day, and rightly so.

Yes, its sad that a top contender isnt allowed to play, but its not as sad as his behaviour towards other people has been. And they didnt do anything to deserve the treatment he gave them, while he has done everything to deserve the punishment hes got.

I don't think it's quite as black and white as that, but sure he has not exactly been a model "citizen". No one is debating that. On the other hand I don't think he was always treated fairly, either.

[Laurence Drake]

Letting diarouga escape bans because he's good is like letting rich people escape jail time because they're rich.

[Goodspeed]

And that shit happens all the time in a normal society

To be fair though this is more complicated than that. Imho the ban from events was ill-advised to begin with.

[milku3459]

Here's my 2 cents
I came in to this community just in time to witness the tail end of the latest Diarouga-saga play out and I thought he was a childish prick who I personally witnessed spamming and threatening to flood the forums with smurfs in a "ESOC PARTY".
But the Diarouga I met in Insight studios discord is like a whole nother person.
He's helpful, hardworking and I haven't seen him be rude to anyone yet. He doesn't push around the fact that he's higher PR. it was different enough to change my opinion of him quite a bit for the better.
my theory is that his ESOC rampage was the result of being put up to the wall by mistreatment, perceived or otherwise. I think he should be given another chance (although I've not been around as long as some and can't say anything about patterns), but both parties must make efforts to live with each other.
Also, tournament bans should be separate from forum bans. Banning from tourney feels like a way to "punish" offenders even more rather than an effective preventative measure.

[rsy]

Actually why don't we make a poll on esoc whether or not dia should be allowed to play in tourney and have a vote? Both sides can be allowed to put up facts and the community becomes the judge.

[deleted_user]

Actually why don't we make a poll on esoc whether or not dia should be allowed to play in tourney and have a vote? Both sides can be allowed to put up facts and the community becomes the judge.

Internet polls are not exactly known for their consistent legitimacy.

[deleted_user0]

Good to know that doing some good things for esoc should get you special priviliges in the minds of some ppl.

Your high moral standards don't apply to this community, if they even apply to real life. Rewarding contributions is how you get more contributions. At the very least, helping out with the patch shows that there is some good will on Diarouga's side. This should matter imo.

This is how it works in every normal society.

I don't think you can expect ESOC to be like a normal society, and trying to be wouldn't be very constructive if you ask me. There are so many ways a small gaming forum/community differs from a real life society it seems rather pointless. And while in a "normal society" it shouldn't matter, Diarouga is a great player and many people want to see him play in this event. It should matter here because with the health of the community in mind we simply can't afford to be selective.

Its fine that hes doing stuff to redeem himself, and im not against second chances, but hes already past that.

How do you figure he's past that? Seems presumptuous. Besides, he's young, and we all do stupid shit when we're young don't we? Ironically, in your "normal society", Diarouga being a minor would actually count for a lot.

Using the size of the community as an argument to allow transgressions is just silly and puts you on a slippery slope at the bottom of which you will not be able to really draw any lines on what is allowed and what isnt.

And indeed I don't think those lines should exist here. I think every particular situation requires a different approach, and having set-in-stone rules isn't necessarily the way to go for this community. You need rules to fall back on, but in the end strictly following a set of rules won't always lead you to the correct decision especially if said rules were conjured up on a sunday afternoon by 1 person. I think this situation called for Diarouga remaining banned on the forum but being allowed to play in the event (and yes, this is but an opinion). It seems he was told that would be the case. Do you think the way this decision was reversed would be acceptable in your ideal society? Did you read Bramboy's message? Press would have a field day, and rightly so.

Yes, its sad that a top contender isnt allowed to play, but its not as sad as his behaviour towards other people has been. And they didnt do anything to deserve the treatment he gave them, while he has done everything to deserve the punishment hes got.

I don't think it's quite as black and white as that, but sure he has not exactly been a model "citizen". No one is debating that. On the other hand I don't think he was always treated fairly, either.

Sure awarding contribution encourages more contribution, as does punishing bad behaviour discourage similar behaviour, but you conveniently ignore that part

I dont see why this part of human decency should be handled differently here than in a normal society. You have any good argument to make this case? Because so far all youre coming up with is its so small... You can also argue that because its so small toxic elements are even more destructive and should be cut out actively.

And yeah some ppl want to see him play. Many others dont want to see someone play or play with a person who behaves like he does when he doesnt get his way. Ranging from threathening/blackmail to spreading hacks, slander and discrimination.

You misunderstood the being past that part. I dont mean hes past redeeming himself, i meant hes already had a second chance, and afaik also a 3rd.

I agree that the constant flipping of opinion of the people in charge is problematic. And i never said the situation was well handled. But initially the ban was meant to include him being banned from playing, as his ban from the 2v2 tournament already made clear. It sux that theyre not keeping their word if what noel said is true, but this was already them changing back on what they initially ruled.

For me its simple, ppl keep talking about him being a top player, but such priviliges shouldnt even be a factor. Its a controversy now that diarouga cant play, but nobody cared that vitaoooo1 was banned, or moesbar and bpds.

[Dolan]

Actually why don't we make a poll on esoc whether or not dia should be allowed to play in tourney and have a vote? Both sides can be allowed to put up facts and the community becomes the judge.

Because it's not gonna change anything.

What I don't understand is why does the site administration let itself be hijacked by a group of people who

- are not site admins / founders
- are not tourney admins,
- have not contributed with at least 50% in donations

The management needs to Ctrl F their balls and set a foot in the door.

[momuuu]

Actually why don't we make a poll on esoc whether or not dia should be allowed to play in tourney and have a vote? Both sides can be allowed to put up facts and the community becomes the judge.

Because it's not gonna change anything.

What I don't understand is why does the site administration let itself be hijacked by a group of people who

- are not site admins / founders
- are not tourney admins,
- have not contributed with at least 50% in donations

The management needs to Ctrl F their balls and set a foot in the door.

Go tell them gurl

[Dolan]

Thanks for the reply.

Is that how ESOC staff replies to forum users now?

[momuuu]

It was a joke, I actually do agree.

[fightinfrenchman]

Actually why don't we make a poll on esoc whether or not dia should be allowed to play in tourney and have a vote? Both sides can be allowed to put up facts and the community becomes the judge.

Because it's not gonna change anything.

What I don't understand is why does the site administration let itself be hijacked by a group of people who

- are not site admins / founders
- are not tourney admins,
- have not contributed with at least 50% in donations

The management needs to Ctrl F their balls and set a foot in the door.

How is the administration being "hijacked" lol

[Dolan]

Apparently H2O and Mitoe are not against allowing Diarouga to play in this tourney.

Also, as far as I know, the two top donors for this event (Iwillspankyou and Goodspeed) support the same decision.

It seems to be mainly the Dutch media team that is against it. Which is a weird situation.

I've nothing personal against any of them, I think they're all fine fellas, I just disagree with them and this decision. I also don't really know Diarouga personally, I just think they are wrong extending a forum ban on tourney participation.

[fightinfrenchman]

Apparently H2O and Mitoe are not against allowing Diarouga to play in this tourney.

Also, as far as I know, the two top donors for this event (Iwillspankyou and Goodspeed) support the same decision.

It seems to be mainly the Dutch media team that is against it. Which is a weird situation.

I have nothing personal against any of them, I think they're all fine fellas, I just disagree with them and this decision. I also don't really know Diarouga personally, I just think they are wrong extending a forum ban on tourney participation.

Ye cheadar can't play either and he really wants to

[Dolan]

Ye, cheadar should be able to play too.

[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[deleted_user0]

nah.

[Goodspeed]

Sure awarding contribution encourages more contribution, as does punishing bad behaviour discourage similar behaviour, but you conveniently ignore that part

I'm not ignoring that, I just think a forum ban is enough punishment.

I dont see why this part of human decency should be handled differently here than in a normal society. You have any good argument to make this case? Because so far all youre coming up with is its so small...

The most obvious argument is that for an internet community allowing someone to play in an event is not disruptive. In a normal society, allowing a dangerous person to participate in sporting events would indeed be a risk. Here it is not.
Additionally, our government is not exactly normal and because they are not being held to the same standards a normal society's government would, neither should community members. Neither party was treated fairly in this particular case.
And yes, the community is small. Not having Diarouga play will lose us viewers, will lose us players, and keeping this community healthy should be all of our first priority. There are a lot of personal feuds here, and we shouldn't let them affect the community.

And yeah some ppl want to see him play. Many others dont want to see someone play or play with a person who behaves like he does when he doesnt get his way. Ranging from threathening/blackmail to spreading hacks, slander and discrimination.

I don't think we're talking about the same amount of people here but sure. At least if he plays you have the choice to either watch his games or not, if he doesn't you don't. Anyway, people forget quickly, especially the ones not personally involved in Diarouga's "crimes" in any way.

You misunderstood the being past that part. I dont mean hes past redeeming himself, i meant hes already had a second chance, and afaik also a 3rd.

Okay, then I agree, but in my opinion this should not affect his ability to play in tournaments.

For me its simple, ppl keep talking about him being a top player, but such priviliges shouldnt even be a factor. Its a controversy now that diarouga cant play, but nobody cared that vitaoooo1 was banned, or moesbar and bpds.

As far as I know those are known cheaters, and it makes a lot of sense for a cheater to be banned from events.
I'll grant you that evilcheadar not being allowed to play is getting much less attention, which makes sense but we should address that, too. It's another good example of someone who was banned from an event for unrelated "crimes" which is a shame.

[deleted_user0]

Sure awarding contribution encourages more contribution, as does punishing bad behaviour discourage similar behaviour, but you conveniently ignore that part

I'm not ignoring that, I just think a forum ban is enough punishment.

I dont see why this part of human decency should be handled differently here than in a normal society. You have any good argument to make this case? Because so far all youre coming up with is its so small...

The most obvious argument is that for an internet community allowing someone to play in an event is not disruptive. In a normal society, allowing a dangerous person to participate in sporting events would indeed be a risk. Here it is not.
Additionally, our government is not exactly normal and because they are not being held to the same standards a normal society's government would, neither should community members. Neither party was treated fairly in this particular case.
And yes, the community is small. Not having Diarouga play will lose us viewers, will lose us players, and keeping this community healthy should be all of our first priority. There are a lot of personal feuds here, and we shouldn't let them affect the community.

And yeah some ppl want to see him play. Many others dont want to see someone play or play with a person who behaves like he does when he doesnt get his way. Ranging from threathening/blackmail to spreading hacks, slander and discrimination.

I don't think we're talking about the same amount of people here but sure. At least if he plays you have the choice to either watch his games or not, if he doesn't you don't. Anyway, people forget quickly, especially the ones not personally involved in Diarouga's "crimes" in any way.

You misunderstood the being past that part. I dont mean hes past redeeming himself, i meant hes already had a second chance, and afaik also a 3rd.

Okay, then I agree, but in my opinion this should not affect his ability to play in tournaments.

For me its simple, ppl keep talking about him being a top player, but such priviliges shouldnt even be a factor. Its a controversy now that diarouga cant play, but nobody cared that vitaoooo1 was banned, or moesbar and bpds.

As far as I know those are known cheaters, and it makes a lot of sense for a cheater to be banned from events.
I'll grant you that the fact that evilcheadar is also not allowed to play is being given way less attention, which makes sense but we should address that, too. This is another good example of someone who was banned from an event for unrelated "crimes" which is a shame.

well have to disagree on that then.

yes, in some cases that is true, not in all cases, I refer you again to the muhammed ali example, there was no danger in letting him compete, yet it wasn't allowed.

not sure what our government has to do with it, nor is it a personal fued. It's simply a matter of decency and keeping to the rules that you agree to. There are consequences to your actions, and they should be the same for everyone, not differ depending on your pr level or on how many friends you can get to complain. But i suppose it's too much to ask for the business team of this site to sail a straight course for once...

In any case, i'm pretty sure you are overstating the effect of him not playing. I doubt it will lose you many viewers if any, and it won't lose you any players but him, which he brought upon himself. He couldve simply behaved after his first ban, and he probably wouldnt even have been banned now.

Yes they are hackers, and some spread the hack, something which diarouga also tried to do btw, but lets just ignore that for now. You say that being banned from an event for unrelated crimes is a shame, but I don't see it that way. It makes more sense that a forum ban would extend to a tournament ban than the other way around. Yes, cheating on the game sux, but it's just a game. Diarouga on the other hand may have been a fair player, but a rather lousy individual at certain points in time. For me it weighs more heavily that he broke rules which arent only agreed upon in this site, but in our society in general. These rules are here because we believe there is a certain way to behave within a community. Breaking the rules of a game sux, but you havent really done anything wrong outside of a game. If you behave the way diarouga did you are breaking far more serious rules in my opinion. If you want to let that be on account of his skill or some other non-argument about size, then sure, you are entitled to that opinion. But it's not the sort of community i would like to be part of. If it's ok to behave as giant douche, then throw a tantrum and threathen to spoil everyones fun just to get your own, and have people back you to get your way even, well, enjoy your party then.

[Goodspeed]

I don't really have a horse in this race either but from my perspective, we have a lose-lose situation right here. Whether diarouga is allowed to play, whether diarouga's ban is maintained, I think that there will be backlash. If diarouga is allowed to play then all of those with (legitimate) reasons against him playing are burned. If diarouga isn't allowed to play then it's those who have perfectly legitimate reasons of him wanting in to play who get the burn. I think that both "sides" have totally meritorious arguments to put forth. Ideally you would want some sort of compromise but the outcomes are fairly 1 vs 0. Either let him play or don't. I don't realistically see a good compromise on this one which means that there's going to be some rift here, regardless of outcome.

Also, after hearing both sides of the story, from my perspective we basically have two antagonist entities which were trying to get the last word. Trying to one up the other side, based on the belief that they were in the right. Kind of an "the ends justify the means" sort of way of thinking and that mindset didn't do much to help bring about a peaceful solution. So now we're kind of in a stalemate and in a lose-lose situation. Kind of unfortunate to see. I really think that the best thing to do would be to have a non-public discussion about the issue and come to a compromise which all parties agree to. That would be ideal, I believe. But it would be a very difficult compromise to obtain. Assuming that diarouga is allowed to enter the tournament, what does he have to give up in the name of compromise? I can't think of anything which would balance the scales.

Hence, a lose-lose situation.

Winner: Diarouga for being allowed to play
Winner: The community for being able to watch him play
Loser: ??

"Does the way he moves his musketeers offend thee?"

[deleted_user]

Actually why don't we make a poll on esoc whether or not dia should be allowed to play in tourney and have a vote? Both sides can be allowed to put up facts and the community becomes the judge.

Internet polls are not exactly known for their consistent legitimacy.

I can be volunteer to make the poll!

[Laurence Drake]

Only polls created by the ESOC Council and Basement Crew are legitimate in the eyes of the law.

[Goodspeed]

In any case, i'm pretty sure you are overstating the effect of him not playing. I doubt it will lose you many viewers if any, and it won't lose you any players but him, which he brought upon himself. He couldve simply behaved after his first ban, and he probably wouldnt even have been banned now.

We'll lose players because not being allowed to play in events may encourage Diarouga to give up the game altogether. That is one less strong player to play with, and we are already facing a shortage on that front. When this community dies, it will be because there is a lack of good players and it's no longer worth it for the ones who are left to try and find a game. This is what happened when Starcraft 2 came out in 2010. On top of that I think Diarouga has an inspiring, creative play style which is exciting and encourages people to try new things, which makes him all the more valuable as a player. I can tell you that, while I will still watch every high level series, Diarouga not being in it makes the event much less interesting to me.

Yes they are hackers, and some spread the hack, something which diarouga also tried to do btw, but lets just ignore that for now. You say that being banned from an event for unrelated crimes is a shame, but I don't see it that way. It makes more sense that a forum ban would extend to a tournament ban than the other way around. Yes, cheating on the game sux, but it's just a game. Diarouga on the other hand may have been a fair player, but a rather lousy individual at certain points in time. For me it weighs more heavily that he broke rules which arent only agreed upon in this site, but in our society in general. These rules are here because we believe there is a certain way to behave within a community. Breaking the rules of a game sux, but you havent really done anything wrong outside of a game. If you behave the way diarouga did you are breaking far more serious rules in my opinion. If you want to let that be on account of his skill or some other non-argument about size, then sure, you are entitled to that opinion. But it's not the sort of community i would like to be part of. If it's ok to behave as giant douche, then throw a tantrum and threathen to spoil everyones fun just to get your own, and have people back you to get your way even, well, enjoy your party then.

Again, I'm not condoning his behaviour in any way. I just think, with everything considered, he should be allowed to play in the event. I absolutely agree with the forum ban staying in place.
I don't like toxic people in the community either, but him being allowed in the event is not disruptive to the community. And I really do think that Diarouga being a minor should count for something. People grow and change as they mature. Forgive and forget. Problem is if the staff won't move past their grudges, then neither will he.

[deleted_user0]

In any case, i'm pretty sure you are overstating the effect of him not playing. I doubt it will lose you many viewers if any, and it won't lose you any players but him, which he brought upon himself. He couldve simply behaved after his first ban, and he probably wouldnt even have been banned now.

We'll lose players because not being allowed to play in events may encourage Diarouga to give up the game altogether. That is one less strong player to play with, and we are already facing a shortage on that front. When this community dies, it will be because there is a lack of good players and it's no longer worth it for the ones who are left to try and find a game. This is what happened when Starcraft 2 came out in 2010. On top of that I think Diarouga has an inspiring, creative play style which is exciting and encourages people to try new things, which makes him all the more valuable as a player. I can tell you that, while I will still watch every high level series, Diarouga not being in it makes the event much less interesting to me.

Yes they are hackers, and some spread the hack, something which diarouga also tried to do btw, but lets just ignore that for now. You say that being banned from an event for unrelated crimes is a shame, but I don't see it that way. It makes more sense that a forum ban would extend to a tournament ban than the other way around. Yes, cheating on the game sux, but it's just a game. Diarouga on the other hand may have been a fair player, but a rather lousy individual at certain points in time. For me it weighs more heavily that he broke rules which arent only agreed upon in this site, but in our society in general. These rules are here because we believe there is a certain way to behave within a community. Breaking the rules of a game sux, but you havent really done anything wrong outside of a game. If you behave the way diarouga did you are breaking far more serious rules in my opinion. If you want to let that be on account of his skill or some other non-argument about size, then sure, you are entitled to that opinion. But it's not the sort of community i would like to be part of. If it's ok to behave as giant douche, then throw a tantrum and threathen to spoil everyones fun just to get your own, and have people back you to get your way even, well, enjoy your party then.

Again, I'm not condoning his behaviour in any way. I just think, with everything considered, he should be allowed to play in the event. I absolutely agree with the forum ban staying in place.
I don't like toxic people in the community either, but him being allowed in the event is not disruptive to the community. And I really do think that Diarouga being a minor should count for something. People grow and change as they mature. Forgive and forget. Problem is if the staff won't move past their grudges, then neither will he.

sure thats all true, so because hes a good player we should just let him do whatever the fuck he wants and still allow him to play in tournaments?

Sure, him being a minor should count for something, and it has. He has been given a second chance before, but you keep chosing to ignore this. Nor have i ever spoke about a lifelong ban. But I don't see the justice in this kind of privilige being handed out on account of him being skilled. And as a matter of fact, you say it would not be disruptive, but if i would be paired vs him in the tournament, i would refuse to play him on account of his behaviour on the forum.

i do think there should be some more transparancy about bans, how long a ban will last, depending on what you have done etc. it's indeed not fair to be banned indefinitely without it being clear wether there is any chance at redemption. And if there is a chance, then it should be clear what needs to be done and when he would get it.

[Gichtenlord]

I think thats the biggest issue here. If esoc allowed diarouga to play in the tournament, it would show any descently skilled player that they can do what they want without any severe punishment.
Usually, in the professional scene, players are punished by their respective teams, if they behave bad, but in aoe3 esoc itself has to fill that role.