Message from Diarouga

[Goodspeed]

sure thats all true, so because hes a good player we should just let him do whatever the fuck he wants and still allow him to play in tournaments?

No? Regardless of skill people shouldn't be banned from events because of forum misbehaviour (including evilcheadar). Diarouga being a good player just makes it more painful.

you say you arent condoning his behaviour, but as a matter of fact, you kinda are.

No, I'm arguing for a punishment that fits the crime.

Sure, him being a minor should count for something, and it has. He has been given a second chance before, but you keep choosing to ignore this. Nor have i ever spoke about a lifelong ban. But I don't see the justice in this kind of privilige being handed out on account of him being skilled.

Again, him being skilled is not the reason I think he should be allowed to play. It is the reason I'm in this thread arguing for it, though, admittedly.

And as a matter of fact, you say it would not be disruptive, but if i would be paired vs him in the tournament, i would refuse to play him on account of his behaviour on the forum.

So you're saying it would be disruptive because you would make it so? Funny. This destructive way of protesting a decision reminds me of someone... Actually, sadly, it reminds me of multiple people.

[Goodspeed]

I think thats the biggest issue here. If esoc allowed diarouga to play in the tournament, it would show any descently skilled player that they can do what they want without any severe punishment.

A forum ban is severe punishment, but more importantly it's the correct punishment. If Diarouga misbehaves in events, which I don't think he has so far, then you have a reason to ban him from there.

[deleted_user0]

sure thats all true, so because hes a good player we should just let him do whatever the fuck he wants and still allow him to play in tournaments?

No? Regardless of skill people shouldn't be banned from events because of forum misbehaviour (including evilcheadar). Diarouga being a good player just makes it more painful.

you say you arent condoning his behaviour, but as a matter of fact, you kinda are.

No, I'm arguing for a punishment that fits the crime.

Sure, him being a minor should count for something, and it has. He has been given a second chance before, but you keep choosing to ignore this. Nor have i ever spoke about a lifelong ban. But I don't see the justice in this kind of privilige being handed out on account of him being skilled.

Again, him being skilled is not the reason I think he should be allowed to play. It is the reason I'm in this thread arguing for it, though, admittedly.

And as a matter of fact, you say it would not be disruptive, but if i would be paired vs him in the tournament, i would refuse to play him on account of his behaviour on the forum.

So you're saying it would be disruptive because you would make it so? Funny. This destructive way of protesting a decision reminds me of someone... Actually, sadly, it reminds me of multiple people.

Nah, I wouldn't make it so. But please tell me what other way of protesting do i have? I'm not the one who has gone around discriminating people and purposely using racist slurs to offend people. Nor have i tried to slander people by hacking a site and posting pictures with hitler moustaches. Nor have I spread hacks. Nor have i literally broken 50% of all rules of this community. As a matter of personal principle, I wont play with a person who does that. I wouldnt hold the tournament ransom over it however, because i accept the consequences of my own actions and decisions. I would simply not play him and accept defeat by forfeit as a result. What you are asking though, is for people to simply look the other way, and then you say you don't condone his actions, but looking the other way is pretty much almost the same. And you may not think he has to play because hes good, but the only reason you are bothered to have this discussion, is because hes good. nobody would have cared if it was just the ear, which again, is about the same as saying he gets priviliged because of his skill.

Ye, you ask for a punismenment that fits the crime or offense rather, because what he did doesnt make him a criminal of any sort. But imo you are mistaken to think that you can seperate it like that. There are a few rules that you simply shouldnt break, and when you do, you put yourself outside the community, which means in my eyes, that you cant enjoy the things that the community offers. It's pretty strange to me that you can shit on the hard work of people and then expect them to let you participate in or enjoy what they have worked to create. There's not really any society i know of in the history of people that works that way, except if it happened by corruption of some sort.

[Goodspeed]

It's pretty strange to me that you can shit on the hard work of people and then expect them to let you participate in or enjoy what they have worked to create. There's not really any society i know of in the history of people that works that way, except if it happened by corruption of some sort.

Except the one we are currently in? Free speech is kind of a big deal nowadays.

No, that's not a serious argument so please don't treat it as such. Thing is I don't care about other societies. We are in this one, it's unique, and we have different opinions as to how it should work. That's okay.

[deleted_user0]

There's not really any society i know of in the history of people that works that way, except if it happened by corruption of some sort.

Except the one we are currently in? Free speech is kind of a big deal nowadays.

No, that's not a serious argument so please don't treat it as such. Thing is I don't care about other societies. We are in this one, it's unique, and we have different opinions as to how it should work. That's okay.

yes, that argument makes no sense, because free speech has nothing to do with it. Even in our society you cant do these things. And thats besides the fact, that there were rules in place, which nobody has complained about, so i assume people thing these rules are fine, and he has broken those rules.

You think you can compromise on everything, but you can't. Some things you can't have both ways. You say my way of protesting is disruptive, but in such a case i would be left with no real choice. I don't expect you to care about wrongs that werent commited to you, but that doesnt mean i or someone else should simply swallow it just because you would.

[Goodspeed]

You think you can compromise on everything, but you can't. Some things you can't have both ways.

Yes, I think a compromise should always be preferred. Indeed sometimes it's not possible, but I don't think this is one of those times.

You say my way of protesting is disruptive, but in such a case i would be left with no real choice.

Your other choice is what you are doing right now: Arguing for your point of view in a public thread, which is what I am doing also. Indeed we don't have a lot of choices beyond that, that is the nature of the issue. It's between ESOC staff and Diarouga.

I don't expect you to care about wrongs that werent commited to you, but that doesnt mean i or someone else should simply swallow it just because you would.

Personal feuds indeed. People and their feelings

[deleted_user0]

You think you can compromise on everything, but you can't. Some things you can't have both ways.

Yes, I think a compromise should always be preferred. Indeed sometimes it's not possible, but I don't think this is one of those times.

You say my way of protesting is disruptive, but in such a case i would be left with no real choice.

Your other choice is what you are doing right now: Arguing for your point of view in a public thread, which is what I am doing also. Indeed we don't have a lot of choices beyond that, that is the nature of the issue. It's between ESOC staff and Diarouga.

I don't expect you to care about wrongs that werent commited to you, but that doesnt mean i or someone else should simply swallow it just because you would.

Personal feuds indeed. People and their feelings

It's not personal, i would be of the same opinion if i wasnt involved. I am of the same opinion about evilcheaders ban, and im not personally involved in that. there are rules to make sure that things dont need to get personal, but the people that are supposed to uphold these rules find it hard to do that apparantly.

It's not just between him and the staff though, if i would have to play him, it would involve me as well. i'm just saying, that letting him play wouldnt mean there are no consequences to it, as you seem to believe.

[Goodspeed]

Well it's a bit silly to be arguing that based solely on you refusing to play him considering you would be the direct cause of the consequence.

[momuuu]

I fail to see the tournaments and the forum itself as such seperate entities.

[deleted_user]

You know I wish someone would quote me and reply to my original post :(

You two are having all the argumentative fun

[deleted_user0]

Well it's a bit silly to be arguing that based solely on you refusing to play him considering you would be the direct cause of the consequence.

Yes, so? The other option is to pretend nothing ever happened, like you want to do. I don't say it just so there will be some consequence, it's simply the consequence if i was put in the position to make such a decision.

[Dolan]

And you may not think he has to play because hes good, but the only reason you are bothered to have this discussion, is because hes good. nobody would have cared if it was just the ear, which again, is about the same as saying he gets priviliged because of his skill.

I think thats the biggest issue here. If esoc allowed diarouga to play in the tournament, it would show any descently skilled player that they can do what they want without any severe punishment.
Usually, in the professional scene, players are punished by their respective teams, if they behave bad, but in aoe3 esoc itself has to fill that role.

No, this has nothing to do with skills. I've no idea how good or bad evilcheadar is at the game, but I think it's a mistake to ban him from the tourney just because he got banned on the forums. Same for diarouga.
They can be allowed to schedule games in the tourney via a friend.

And again, I barely know these people, I don't have any personal interest in supporting them. I just think it's wrong that they aren't allowed to play just because the media team is against that. If they don't like them or have some personal grudge, they can refuse to cover their games and let somebody else work on that.

[Goodspeed]

Yes, so? The other option is to pretend nothing ever happened, like you want to do. I don't say it just so there will be some consequence, it's simply the consequence if i was put in the position to make such a decision.

Why do you keep pretending I want to sweep it all under a rug? Like I said, I agree with the forum ban.

[momuuu]

And you may not think he has to play because hes good, but the only reason you are bothered to have this discussion, is because hes good. nobody would have cared if it was just the ear, which again, is about the same as saying he gets priviliged because of his skill.

I think thats the biggest issue here. If esoc allowed diarouga to play in the tournament, it would show any descently skilled player that they can do what they want without any severe punishment.
Usually, in the professional scene, players are punished by their respective teams, if they behave bad, but in aoe3 esoc itself has to fill that role.

No, this has nothing to do with skills. I've no idea how good or bad evilcheadar is at the game, but I think it's a mistake to ban him from the tourney just because he got banned on the forums. Same for diarouga.
They can be allowed to schedule games in the tourney via a friend.

And again, I barely know these people, I don't have any personal interest in supporting them. I just think it's wrong that they aren't allowed to play just because the media team is against that. If they don't like them or have some personal grudge, they can refuse to cover their games and let someone else work on that.

What a poor analysis.

[XeeleeFlower]

[deleted_user0]

And you may not think he has to play because hes good, but the only reason you are bothered to have this discussion, is because hes good. nobody would have cared if it was just the ear, which again, is about the same as saying he gets priviliged because of his skill.

I think thats the biggest issue here. If esoc allowed diarouga to play in the tournament, it would show any descently skilled player that they can do what they want without any severe punishment.
Usually, in the professional scene, players are punished by their respective teams, if they behave bad, but in aoe3 esoc itself has to fill that role.

No, this has nothing to do with skills. I've no idea how good or bad evilcheadar is at the game, but I think it's a mistake to ban him from the tourney just because he got banned on the forums. Same for diarouga.
They can be allowed to schedule games in the tourney via a friend.

And again, I barely know these people, I don't have any personal interest in supporting them. I just think it's wrong that they aren't allowed to play just because the media team is against that. If they don't like them or have some personal grudge, they can refuse to cover their games and let somebody else work on that.

what makes you say its personal, you have no proof that they do it just to spite diarouga, except diarougas own words. hardly evidence. i dont really care what the outcome is, i will draw my own conclusions regardless, but there should be some guidelines set and they should be upheld. maybe thats what the media team is concerned with, you havent asked.

[Goodspeed]

You know I wish someone would quote me and reply to my original post :(

I found nothing in your post to argue against It also didn't seem to be addressing the separation between forum bans and tournament bans, which this discussion is mostly about.

[Googol]

I would let him play, as Goodspeed mentioned for the sake of entertainment. I can´t judge too much i don´t know about the ESOC past and about this case at all, but from my side... side of a viewer/spectator i would let him play as a fact he is one of the top players.

[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[momuuu]

I'd say the situation escalated because diarouga tried to manipulate everybody and somehow people are quite willing to believe that esoc staff are villains that just ban people because they don't like m.

[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[milku3459]

If any media team members leave over this let it be known that I shall submit my application to join media team.
I was offered a job before but said no for Insight studios.
But if the Media team is about to be crippled I'll step up
got to join sdsanft and site in corrupting ESOC MUarahahrUgaht

[Gichtenlord]

I'd say the situation escalated because diarouga tried to manipulate everybody and somehow people are quite willing to believe that esoc staff are villains that just ban people because they don't like m.

I don't know if anyone believes that. I personally don't.

Jerom is in the right. Diarouga tries to put himself in the victim role.
I would like to say more about this incident, since I followed it closely during its peak on the staff forum and discord, but most of the intern information werent released from any current staff member yet. So, I guess that Im also not supposed to make anything public.

[n0el]

@gitchenlord I'm not sure what else there is to add? It's pretty much all there in his post.

[Laurence Drake]

I'd say the situation escalated because diarouga tried to manipulate everybody and somehow people are quite willing to believe that esoc staff are villains that just ban people because they don't like m.

hmm I wonder why anyone would think that