Message from Diarouga

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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Goodspeed »

Gichtenlord wrote:
kami_ryu wrote:
Jerom wrote:I'd say the situation escalated because diarouga tried to manipulate everybody and somehow people are quite willing to believe that esoc staff are villains that just ban people because they don't like m.


I don't know if anyone believes that. I personally don't.

Jerom is in the right. Diarouga tries to put himself in the victim role.
I would like to say more about this incident, since I followed it closely during its peak on the staff forum and discord, but most of the intern information werent released from any current staff member yet. So, I guess that Im also not supposed to make anything public.
It's one side of the story.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jerom wrote:I'd say the situation escalated because diarouga tried to manipulate everybody and somehow people are quite willing to believe that esoc staff are villains that just ban people because they don't like m.


Probably because it is true
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Difference between EvilCheadar and Diarouga is:
1) Diarouga contributes to the community in a positive way (ik the spam but since then) (The patch)
2) Diarouga is someone who I would like to see play in the tournament
3) He is showing improvement in his behaviour. (Helping with Fight Night, guides etc)

This is from my point of view however and there may be some stuff he is doing that I ofc dont know about.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by fightinfrenchman »

JakeyBoyTH wrote:Difference between EvilCheadar and Diarouga is:
1) Diarouga contributes to the community in a positive way (ik the spam but since then) (The patch)
2) Diarouga is someone who I would like to see play in the tournament
3) He is showing improvement in his behaviour. (Helping with Fight Night, guides etc)

This is from my point of view however and there may be some stuff he is doing that I ofc dont know about.


1.) Evil cheadar obviously contributes a lot to the community, he helps with all Basement projects
2.) Many people want to see him do his flail rush in the tournament
3.) Evil cheadar didn't behave badly to begin with, while diarouga used racial slurs after getting banned
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
JakeyBoyTH wrote:Difference between EvilCheadar and Diarouga is:
1) Diarouga contributes to the community in a positive way (ik the spam but since then) (The patch)
2) Diarouga is someone who I would like to see play in the tournament
3) He is showing improvement in his behaviour. (Helping with Fight Night, guides etc)

This is from my point of view however and there may be some stuff he is doing that I ofc dont know about.


1.) Evil cheadar obviously contributes a lot to the community, he helps with all Basement projects
2.) Many people want to see him do his flail rush in the tournament
3.) Evil cheadar didn't behave badly to begin with, while diarouga used racial slurs after getting banned


Not in the same way Diarouga contributes. Its different when helping out your own goals. If Cheadar helped with the patch or Insight etc quite a bit then it would be different. Diarouga does a lot behind the scenes.

3) is pretty debatable and all of that stuff is pretty opinionated. I did say that there could be some stuff I didn't know about. Diarouga really has been lovely to me, and even helped with my tournament. He understood when he was banned why (no drama). I would love to have him in my next one now that everything is cooled down.

[EDIT] This is not to downplay cheadar, he is a lovely guy.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by fightinfrenchman »

JakeyBoyTH wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:
JakeyBoyTH wrote:Difference between EvilCheadar and Diarouga is:
1) Diarouga contributes to the community in a positive way (ik the spam but since then) (The patch)
2) Diarouga is someone who I would like to see play in the tournament
3) He is showing improvement in his behaviour. (Helping with Fight Night, guides etc)

This is from my point of view however and there may be some stuff he is doing that I ofc dont know about.


1.) Evil cheadar obviously contributes a lot to the community, he helps with all Basement projects
2.) Many people want to see him do his flail rush in the tournament
3.) Evil cheadar didn't behave badly to begin with, while diarouga used racial slurs after getting banned


Not in the same way Diarouga contributes. Its different when helping out your own goals. If Cheadar helped with the patch or Insight etc quite a bit then it would be different. Diarouga does a lot behind the scenes.

3) is pretty debatable and all of that stuff is pretty opinionated. I did say that there could be some stuff I didn't know about. Diarouga really has been lovely to me, and even helped with my tournament. He understood when he was banned why (no drama). I would love to have him in my next one now that everything is cooled down.

[EDIT] This is not to downplay cheadar, he is a lovely guy.


That seems like a very narrow definition of contributing to the community. Cheadar has co-casted things for Insight Studios by the way.

Diarouga absolutely did understand why he was banned originally, and there was a huge amount of drama. However I do think his ban has gone on too long as well - just that both of them should be allowed to participate in the tournament.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

fightinfrenchman wrote:That seems like a very narrow definition of contributing to the community. Cheadar has co-casted things for Insight Studios by the way.

Diarouga absolutely did understand why he was banned originally, and there was a huge amount of drama. However I do think his ban has gone on too long as well - just that both of them should be allowed to participate in the tournament.


I think it would be lovely to see both of these guys play in the tournament, but it is not up to me and I don't know the whole story.
I don't think its a narrow definition at all. Helping when its not in your best interests is much better than helping yourself.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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five pages already lol
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Atomiswave »

Topic gets bigger and bigger, Diarouga's drama is pretty viral it seems.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:what makes you say its personal, you have no proof that they do it just to spite diarouga, except diarougas own words. hardly evidence. i dont really care what the outcome is, i will draw my own conclusions regardless, but there should be some guidelines set and they should be upheld. maybe thats what the media team is concerned with, you havent asked.

Well, yeah, I agree there should be some guidelines. In principle, I don't see the rationale behind extending someone's punishment for an offence on the forum to their eligibility to participate in a tourney. Because, usually (afaik), the tourney is a seasonal event sponsored by donations, which is managed by a separate team of admins, that may or may not have any role in forum administration.

Example: Veni was tourney staff when I was site admin, but he had no role whatsoever in running the former site. It happened once that there was no available tourney admin during a series (goongoon vs kiljardi), so there was nobody to handle two difficult participants and to make all the arrangements for the game to be casted. I had to talk to Mitoe, who was tourney admin, to get an agreement to jump in and manage the situation. It was an exception, because usually no site admin that wasn't tourney staff could do that. It was unheard-of.

I've no idea what the motives are behind their opposition to letting Diarouga and cheadar participate. I assumed there must be something Diarouga said, maybe he insulted them, because that's the most common cause of grudge in this community. But it's possible different people have different reasons for that. It's a weird situation, though, that tourney admins would let their decision be influenced by the media team. If they have an issue with a player, they could just not cast his games.

Same situation for cheadar, I don't understand why he was not allowed to play in the tourney for an offence committed on the forum. It's not like these guys did something illegal that brought terrible losses or legal troubles to the site.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by momuuu »

Because there's no official staff response and this thread has turned into people making super weird assumptions and discussing without knowledge of anything, I'm going to explain carefully what is going on exactly:

Diarouga was banned last summer. Contrary to what he may make you believe - he has tried hard to twist the truth - this ban was completely justified. That is, if you consider repeatedly calling someone a niggah, even after being warned, unacceptable. After that ban, he made spamthreads, spread moesbar cheats and harassed moderators through skype. I think the permanent ban should not be questioned at all. For reasons unknown to me, Diarouga was banned around october, after being banned for 3 months. Something to me personally unjustified, as I had not really been convinced that his behaviour would improve. Shortly afterwards, that concern turned out to be justified. At that time I was rather busy, and not a moderator anymore, so these facts are not as elaborate. I believe he had been speaking ill of some moderators for no reason, and made a thread ridiculing some moderators. That was seen, and given his history of poor behaviour, he was given a short ban. He behaved particularly poorly upon receiving that ban; He made dozens of smurf accounts to spam threads about his stuff, he even tried to make others meet up so they could launch a coordinated spam attack on esoc. I have heard, but cannot confirm from own experience, that he even 'hacked' the site or at least made hitler-pictures of ryan appear on the front page. After these incidents he was banned for undetermined duration.

Because the EP team completely lacks people willing to test games, they asked diarouga to help out. To begin with, he has always also shown willingness to contribute towards the community, something that isn't irrelevant. He did help out, but from what I've read his behaviour within balance discussions, especially towards garja or just people that disagreed with him in general, wasn't much better than what I was used to. Meanwhile, I did feel like he continuously tried to undermine the staff and manipulate people into thinking he had done nothing wrong. At this point I almost think he believes he actually didn't do anything wrong. There have been statements from him that indicate that he hardly even regrets the things he has done. In this light, I personally would say that unbanning diarouga is not something that will happen in the near future. I personally feel like a third (!) chance really has to be earned, if it is given at all, and diarouga just can't convince me that he will be able to behave. Next time we give him a warning he'll be spamming the shit out of the forums again with numerous smurfs, I really do believe that will happen.

So this is what happened, and I think we can agree that the ban was very justified. Now you can indeed argue that tournament and forum should be seperated. I think thats a valid position to have. I personally believe that we're not talking about a seperate forum and tournament, but about a community. I'd like to see a positive community, a tournament for those that sympathize with esoc, not for the people that structurally try to undermine esoc. The rules do state that people banned from the forums are also excluded from the tournaments or all other esoc related things, and I do defintily not disagree with that sentiment. And let's be clear here, I don't hold a grudge against diarouga. I think it's very sad for him that he somehow can't behave properly, and I would be very happy if he learned how to behave. It's extremely sad that a player of his caliber can't play in the tournament. But I support the concept of banning someone from the entire community and not just from a message board, and with me does the majority of the staff. Not all staff members, this surely is a thing that we don't agree upon, but the majority of the staff agrees with this idea. We could spend ages discussing whether this is a valid position, I think theres arguments for both sides, many of which represented in this thread. The majority of the staff has decided upon not letting him play, so I think it's better for everyone to accept that decision and to realize that this is a case of principles and not a conspiracy against diarouga or any other banned people. ESOC offers a great deal of services to the community, and if you cannot respect that effort, if you decide to undermine the staff that makes these things work, if you try to spam the side, then you shouldn't have the right to benefit from these services.

That's also why Bram and me aren't interested in providing services to people that have actively tried to undermine the work of the staff and, even in this thread, actively tried to make us seem bad. Very recently diarouga even threatened to sign up smurfs for this tournament. Tonight Bram is going to thoroughly go through the list trying to figure out if there are any diarouga smurfs in it. It is not weird that we are both not interested in letting diarouga play. I personally would be afraid to have diarouga games streamed, as he might opt for revenge or something making us look bad. If other people decide to overall the decision of the media team, the community team and the case that the majority of the staff supports, then I will leave the staff. I felt conflicted as to whether I should have said that I would do that, because in a sense it's close to blackmail, but I felt like I had to tell the rest of the team the truth and not surprise them afterwards.

I hope people agree with this post, or at least see the reasoning behind it. It's impossible to satisfy everyone, but it is possible to accept that. The opposite decision would quite possibly have lead to a similair thread. It would be best if we would accept that this was a hard decision, accept the result of it and move forward. Look at the future, the great tournament and hopefully many good games that ESOC will provide to all of us, instead of endlessly complaining about the diarouga case.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Dolan »

Wait a second, which majority of the staff agrees to not let these forum-banned ppl play?

Because, frankly, with all due respect for your guys' work (and I know it's not easy, because I've been there) why would the media team be considered part of the site or tourney administration? You are the team behind content administration, as far as I know. You're not responsible with administrating the site, hosting, site development, patch development, tourney administration.

Maybe there's something I am missing. Is Bramboy tourney admin? Site admin?

I don't see a major problem with forum users making fun of admins or mods. Unless it's something very insulting which breaks forum rules. And I never disputed the forum ban for these two (diarouga and cheadar). I bet they were both dicks on the forum, so they deserved a ban.

But.. again, we can agree to disagree here, tournament is something else. We should be giving the donors more credit, even though most of the work is done by admins, the media team and casters, donors cut a piece of their income to make these events worth playing. Do you think donors will continue to throw >500 bucks per event if they see the way this issue has been handled? Maybe, maybe not.

But eventually it's the game that will lose, it will just keep losing players until you'll have 200 bucks tourneys only with majors.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by edeholland »

-Luckily we are probably only talking about the current tournament, after that the ban has been a year, at least that was the latest conclusion of the community team
-Yes, the media team is responsible for the tournaments. They are currently doing all the work for the tournament, including newspost, scheduling threads, results, seeding, brackets, casters and media. The business team handled the money for the tournament.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by momuuu »

Media team are the main tournament admins. In the current team structure both those appointed leaders and the entire team, or those that bothered to vote, have a majority in this decision. Im happy to see you're eager to dispute this statement with vague guessing.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by edeholland »

Jerom wrote:Media team are the main tournament admins. In the current team structure both those appointed leaders and the entire team, or those that bothered to vote, have a majority in this decision. Im happy to see you're eager to dispute this statement with vague guessing.


Vague guessing now, but we did indeed have a seperate tournament team before :p
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:what makes you say its personal, you have no proof that they do it just to spite diarouga, except diarougas own words. hardly evidence. i dont really care what the outcome is, i will draw my own conclusions regardless, but there should be some guidelines set and they should be upheld. maybe thats what the media team is concerned with, you havent asked.

Well, yeah, I agree there should be some guidelines. In principle, I don't see the rationale behind extending someone's punishment for an offence on the forum to their eligibility to participate in a tourney. Because, usually (afaik), the tourney is a seasonal event sponsored by donations, which is managed by a separate team of admins, that may or may not have any role in forum administration.

Example: Veni was tourney staff when I was site admin, but he had no role whatsoever in running the former site. It happened once that there was no available tourney admin during a series (goongoon vs kiljardi), so there was nobody to handle two difficult participants and to make all the arrangements for the game to be casted. I had to talk to Mitoe, who was tourney admin, to get an agreement to jump in and manage the situation. It was an exception, because usually no site admin that wasn't tourney staff could do that. It was unheard-of.

I've no idea what the motives are behind their opposition to letting Diarouga and cheadar participate. I assumed there must be something Diarouga said, maybe he insulted them, because that's the most common cause of grudge in this community. But it's possible different people have different reasons for that. It's a weird situation, though, that tourney admins would let their decision be influenced by the media team. If they have an issue with a player, they could just not cast his games.

Same situation for cheadar, I don't understand why he was not allowed to play in the tourney for an offence committed on the forum. It's not like these guys did something illegal that brought terrible losses or legal troubles to the site.


well, the disagreement here hinges on wether or not you can say in a community site that there is a separation of the forum and the events organised by the people on the same forum. I think I have convincingly showed that in real societies, such separation does not exist, and I ask you to explain why it should exist on this site. Goodspeed has tried to adress it by saying no harm can be done because its online, but I think i've refuted that as well, because it's not always about killers or pedophiles in real societies either. I still just don't see a good argument for a separation when it comes to breaking general rules of civil conduct.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Jerom wrote:Media team are the main tournament admins. In the current team structure both those appointed leaders and the entire team, or those that bothered to vote, have a majority in this decision. Im happy to see you're eager to dispute this statement with vague guessing.

Ok, I didn't know that, since their forum tags don't say much about that. Well, then the whole structure has changed since I was there. It used to be Mitoe and H2O who managed tourneys. And they were explicitly named in the tourney rules as authorised staff to handle tourney stuff.

(Basically Edeholland confirmed to you what I said. We used to have a special team of tourney admins and staff.)

This puts the whole thing in another perspective, then.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Well not letting cheadar play in the tournament certainly makes me unwilling to donate now. It's unfortunate that people who donate to make these prize pools so big are not considered to be contributing to the tournament at all.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by tedere12 »

Here is a message diarouga wants me to post:
"@momuuu
Let's be honest, ESOC didn't ban me for being racist. It's true that I've called Umeu a nigga, and I do agree that it something I should not have done, but I was having a very bad day back then, and when I saw that Umeu was flaming me, and throwing away my smurfs on the forums, and that, even after he provocates me 4 times, the staff wouldn't do shit, I did the only thing which makes him mad. You know, we all do silly things when we're mad.

Anyway, I got banned because garja had a rage attack, and even Bramboy admits it, and if anyone is interested in knowing why I got banned, here it is:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Maybe my point of view is morally wrong, but it is how I saw the situation back then, I got banned for no real reasons while I invested a lot of time.

It's irrelevant though, because past is past, and arguing about whether or not my ban was deserved isn't constructive. And that's why I decided in January to apologise, and to help ESOC with the patch.
And, considering the ESOC team accepted my help and accepted to let me play in that tournament, I hardly see how banning me from this one would be fair.

The issue today is that some members of the staff continuously attack me about what I've done in the past, and it is all but constructive.

How do you want my relationship with ESOC to improve when you, and you're not the only one, make posts like this?

"I personally would say that unbanning diarouga is not something that will happen in the near future. I personally feel like a third (!) chance really has to be earned, if it is given at all, and diarouga just can't convince me that he will be able to behave"
It's the kind of statement you've been doing since I got banned in June, and honestly, if the esoc staff wants the situation to improve, they shouldn't support posts like this. How is it fair to tell me that I'll get unbanned in 6months if I help with the patch, and 6months later tell me that they don't want to ever unban me?

It's pretty frustrating to read a post where you claim things that are objectively wrong. If you want me to make a list, here it is:
-"For reasons unknown to me, Diarouga was unbanned around october, after being banned for 3 months."

The ESOC staff acknowledged that a permanent ban in June was totally unjustificate, and they banned me only during one day. After that, I left ESOC during 3months, and came back, as they proposed to organise the 2v2 invitational with me.

-"There have been statements from him that indicate that he hardly even regrets the things he has done."
That's a pretty vague statement, but if you're talking about flaming the staff or spamming the forums then it's wrong.
-"this is a case of principles and not a conspiracy against diarouga or any other banned people."
It's only a matter of point of view. As I said, when you make posts like this, you're not really being respectful to me. And eventhough it doesn't excuse my behaviour, staff members making statements like this surely didn't help a potential reconciliation.
When I came back to help ESOC, half of the staff acted like this. Bramboy left the invitational chat after posting "Sorry, I think diarouga is a toxic person and nothing good can be done with him", before I even wrote a message, and you acted the same way too.
As I said, from my point of view, my first ban wasn't fair to begin with, how am I meant to have a positive opinion about the staff when more than 3 days try to fuck me in my backs?

-"That's also why Bram and me aren't interested in providing services to people that have actively tried to undermine the work of the staff"
Wouldn't you say that my work has been undermined?

-" and, even in this thread, actively tried to make us seem bad"
Well, you also try to make me seem bad. We could stop, but you don't want to, so you can't really complain about it.

-"I personally would be afraid to have diarouga games streamed, as he might opt for revenge or something making us look bad."
Why would I do that if ESOC accepts to let me play? It's a weak argument
-"the great tournament and hopefully many good games that ESOC will provide to all of us, instead of endlessly complaining about the diarouga case."
That is why I sometimes take that "victim" role. Some members of the ESOC staff try to get rid of me. And I recall a post in the internal ESOC forums where some staff members said that the goal was to "get rid of [me]". Back to my point, is me behaving poorly with some staff members who want to "get rid of [me]" really surprising?

-"I have heard, but cannot confirm from own experience, that he even 'hacked' the site"
That's an accusation I've often heard from the staff while I've never hacked the site at all.

So the conclusion is that ESOC should let me play in that tournament, and if we both behave decently and respectfully, I can't see why we would have arguments. These issues are only a consequence of a snow-ball effect."
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Re: Message from Diarouga

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Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:well, the disagreement here hinges on wether or not you can say in a community site that there is a separation of the forum and the events organised by the people on the same forum. I think I have convincingly showed that in real societies, such separation does not exist, and I ask you to explain why it should exist on this site. Goodspeed has tried to adress it by saying no harm can be done because its online, but I think i've refuted that as well, because it's not always about killers or pedophiles in real societies either. I still just don't see a good argument for a separation when it comes to breaking general rules of civil conduct.
You don't see arguments that satisfy you because you are being quite the idealist and that's great but for me the long-term survival of the community comes first and your high moral standards I consider to be mostly in the way. First of all let's acknowledge that there is no objective truth here, there is no "right" side. There are only opinions. While to you they don't matter or don't trump your conviction that ESOC should resemble the ideal society, to me the following factors matter a whole lot:

  • The practical purpose of the ban is to stop Diarouga from interacting with the community. Allowing him to play in the event would not undermine this.
  • Diarouga was instrumental in creating the very patch this tournament is about to be played on.
  • Diarouga hasn't misbehaved in any tournament.
  • By being a strong contender, Diarouga is a source of both viewers and, indirectly, players.
  • Diarouga is a contributor beyond his skill at the game (strategy guides, the news letter, etcetera).
On top of this the drama between Diarouga and the staff is being kept in tact by both sides, which is something I have seen happen before and I can't help but sympathize with the man because I know how unforgiving and harsh the staff can be in its interactions with people they consider a negative influence on the community. One should keep that in mind.

To sum up, I don't agree about the situation being as black and white as you seem to think it is.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Laurence Drake »

Objective morality is real. It's in the bible, folks.
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Kaiserklein »

Goodspeed wrote:You don't see arguments that satisfy you because you are being quite the idealist and that's great but for me the long-term survival of the community comes first and your high moral standards I consider to be mostly in the way. First of all let's acknowledge that there is no objective truth here, there is no "right" side. There are only opinions. While to you they don't matter or don't trump your conviction that ESOC should resemble the ideal society, to me the following factors matter a whole lot:

  • The practical purpose of the ban is to stop Diarouga from interacting with the community. Allowing him to play in the event would not undermine this.
  • Diarouga was instrumental in creating the very patch this tournament is about to be played on.
  • Diarouga hasn't misbehaved in any tournament.
  • By being a strong contender, Diarouga is a source of both viewers and, indirectly, players.
  • Diarouga is a contributor beyond his skill at the game (strategy guides, the news letter, etcetera).
On top of this the drama between Diarouga and the staff is being kept in tact by both sides, which is something I have seen happen before and I can't help but sympathize with the man because I know how unforgiving and harsh the staff can be in its interactions with people they consider a negative influence on the community. One should keep that in mind.

To sum up, I don't agree about the situation being as black and white as you seem to think it is.

Awww 60 :'( I share your pain
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Goodspeed »

Np



:unsure:
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:well, the disagreement here hinges on wether or not you can say in a community site that there is a separation of the forum and the events organised by the people on the same forum. I think I have convincingly showed that in real societies, such separation does not exist, and I ask you to explain why it should exist on this site. Goodspeed has tried to adress it by saying no harm can be done because its online, but I think i've refuted that as well, because it's not always about killers or pedophiles in real societies either. I still just don't see a good argument for a separation when it comes to breaking general rules of civil conduct.
You don't see arguments that satisfy you because you are being quite the idealist and that's great but for me the long-term survival of the community comes first and your high moral standards I consider to be mostly in the way. First of all let's acknowledge that there is no objective truth here, there is no "right" side. There are only opinions. While to you they don't matter or don't trump your conviction that ESOC should resemble the ideal society, to me the following factors matter a whole lot:

  • The practical purpose of the ban is to stop Diarouga from interacting with the community. Allowing him to play in the event would not undermine this.
  • Diarouga was instrumental in creating the very patch this tournament is about to be played on.
  • Diarouga hasn't misbehaved in any tournament.
  • By being a strong contender, Diarouga is a source of both viewers and, indirectly, players.
  • Diarouga is a contributor beyond his skill at the game (strategy guides, the news letter, etcetera).
On top of this the drama between Diarouga and the staff is being kept in tact by both sides, which is something I have seen happen before and I can't help but sympathize with the man because I know how unforgiving and harsh the staff can be in its interactions with people they consider a negative influence on the community. One should keep that in mind.

To sum up, I don't agree about the situation being as black and white as you seem to think it is.


fair enough, we'll have to disagree on that view then. But just let me say this as a final thing on this topic from my side, you seem to think that keeping people like diarouga around is without consequences but it really isn't. As I already tried to make clear with the tournament example. Keeping such a toxic element, be it on the forums or in the tournament, contributes to other people leaving who are either the victim of that toxicity or aren't willing to be part of it by standing idly by. And those people who will leave because of that are also people who have helped build this patch this tournament will be played on, they are also people who haven't misbhehaved in any tournament, and unlike diarouga not even outside it, they are also top players that provide entertainment to the viewers and people who have contributed to this community in many other ways. Keeping people like diarouga might mean losing these people, some of them have already left or cut back on their contribution. I don't think that's fair, because they havent done anything wrong. If that makes me an idealist, so be it. But you should realise, that you can't have both.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Message from Diarouga

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:fair enough, we'll have to disagree on that view then. But just let me say this as a final thing on this topic from my side, you seem to think that keeping people like diarouga around is without consequences but it really isn't. As I already tried to make clear with the tournament example. Keeping such a toxic element, be it on the forums or in the tournament, contributes to other people leaving who are either the victim of that toxicity or aren't willing to be part of it by standing idly by. And those people who will leave because of that are also people who have helped build this patch this tournament will be played on, they are also people who haven't misbhehaved in any tournament, and unlike diarouga not even outside it, they are also top players that provide entertainment to the viewers and people who have contributed to this community in many other ways. Keeping people like diarouga might mean losing these people, some of them have already left or cut back on their contribution. I don't think that's fair, because they havent done anything wrong. If that makes me an idealist, so be it. But you should realise, that you can't have both.
All quite true, toxicity spreads. I'm not in favour of unbanning Diarouga on the forum for that reason, and from what I have observed recently I believe he is perfectly capable of behaving in the tournament if allowed to play. I would even argue that, since allowing him to play would go a long way in reconciling with him and not allowing it would once again encourage toxic behaviour on his part, the latter would actually be more destructive.

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