England maybe leave EU june 23.

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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Laurence Drake »

Corbyn would perform worse than May in a televised debate; he's not the problem.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by pecelot »

iwillspankyou wrote:Theresa May [...] is not women enough to face her main opponent

I would say she is women enough :hmm:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

pecelot wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:Theresa May [...] is not women enough to face her main opponent

I would say she is women enough :hmm:


If that is the case, why not face your main opponent in a fair TV debate?? Its just very arrogant towards Labour AND UK voters :hmm:

Could B you have some very good explanations, that I have not thought of myself, yet. Pls enlighten me :?:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by pecelot »

She doesn't have to.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

pecelot wrote:She doesn't have to.

yeah - she think she has this is her pocket :unsure: - that is also why I think its super arrogant. I hope she chokes on that choise :lol:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by pecelot »

It's not entirely, many politicians do so. Unless you call most of the politicians arrogant :roll:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

pecelot wrote:It's not entirely, many politicians do so. Unless you call most of the politicians arrogant :roll:

Could B you know more of this than me, but I have yet to see an election when the party in power, refuse to meet their main oponent :huh: :?: You have many examples of this :?: :?:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by pecelot »

Yes, from my country. Polish president from 2010 to 2015, Bronisław Komorowski, felt so confident after all the polls were released that he didn't engaged in any of major debates that were set up by the biggest TV companies. In the end, he lost. :kinggreen:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

Yeah, it does reflect badly on May, since she is calling these pre-term elections because she needs the confidence afforded by a 5-year mandate.

Could be that she's bad at debating or she's afraid of having to face the SNP and answer why she refuses Scotland's democratic will (expressed by their parliament) to hold another independence referendum.

I don't think she's afraid of Corbyn. As a politician, Corbyn is a lil kid compared to feisty Sturgeon or ole SNP firebrand Alex Salmond.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

Dolan wrote:Yeah, it does reflect badly on May, since she is calling these pre-term elections because she needs the confidence afforded by a 5-year mandate.

Could be that she's bad at debating or she's afraid of having to face the SNP and answer why she refuses Scotland's democratic will (expressed by their parliament) to hold another independence referendum.

I don't think she's afraid of Corbyn. As a politician, Corbyn is a lil kid compared to feisty Sturgeon or ole SNP firebrand Alex Salmond.

I can only reply - I dont agree with you - at all :? Corbyn still rules the Labour party, even after all the backstabbing attempts. He is in his positions, cos the ppl choose him :uglylol: Guess that could make any Tory scared :maniac:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by dietschlander »

pecelot wrote:Yes, from my country. Polish president from 2010 to 2015, Bronisław Komorowski, felt so confident after all the polls were released that he didn't engaged in any of major debates that were set up by the biggest TV companies. In the end, he lost. :kinggreen:


Kinda same happened in NL with Wilders
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

dietschlander wrote:
pecelot wrote:Yes, from my country. Polish president from 2010 to 2015, Bronisław Komorowski, felt so confident after all the polls were released that he didn't engaged in any of major debates that were set up by the biggest TV companies. In the end, he lost. :kinggreen:


Kinda same happened in NL with Wilders

shenanigans :uglylol: :uglylol: why would you take it laying down :cry:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by musketjr »

early in the thread Dolan notes that the EU is not well understood.

how it works is very confusing and convoluted and you have to take that into account when laymen (that is, everyone who hasn't studied or worked with the EU enough to actually understand it, or almost everyone) are thinking about it. so i think that people wanting to opt out of something they're unable to understand due to its complexity is legitimate. i studied it and i have no idea how it works. relatedly (apparently relatedly isn't a word, but i feel like it should be so i'm just going to keep using it until it is), one of the benefits of a codified constitution is that what are inevitably a vast, disparate array of rules and principles are brought together in one place, making the way the country operates more transparent and understandable and consequently enhancing the democratic process.

that said i am against brexit, but i wouldn't belittle that particular concern (within reason).
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Goodspeed »

Look who it is. What have you been up to @musketjr planning to watch the tournament at all?

Also https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/relatedly
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by musketjr »

Goodspeed wrote:Look who it is. What have you been up to @musketjr planning to watch the tournament at all?

Also https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/relatedly


didn't take long

i've been attempting to study, and procrastinating more than i should (usually with aoe streams).

i'll be following it yea.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by gibson »

musketjr wrote:early in the thread Dolan notes that the EU is not well understood.

how it works is very confusing and convoluted and you have to take that into account when laymen (that is, everyone who hasn't studied or worked with the EU enough to actually understand it, or almost everyone) are thinking about it. so i think that people wanting to opt out of something they're unable to understand due to its complexity is legitimate. i studied it and i have no idea how it works. relatedly (apparently relatedly isn't a word, but i feel like it should be so i'm just going to keep using it until it is), one of the benefits of a codified constitution is that what are inevitably a vast, disparate array of rules and principles are brought together in one place, making the way the country operates more transparent and understandable and consequently enhancing the democratic process.

that said i am against brexit, but i wouldn't belittle that particular concern (within reason).
how is voting against something because you don't understand it a legitimate reason? You vote against something because you disagree with it, not on the basis of its complexity.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by musketjr »

gibson wrote:
musketjr wrote:early in the thread Dolan notes that the EU is not well understood.

how it works is very confusing and convoluted and you have to take that into account when laymen (that is, everyone who hasn't studied or worked with the EU enough to actually understand it, or almost everyone) are thinking about it. so i think that people wanting to opt out of something they're unable to understand due to its complexity is legitimate. i studied it and i have no idea how it works. relatedly (apparently relatedly isn't a word, but i feel like it should be so i'm just going to keep using it until it is), one of the benefits of a codified constitution is that what are inevitably a vast, disparate array of rules and principles are brought together in one place, making the way the country operates more transparent and understandable and consequently enhancing the democratic process.

that said i am against brexit, but i wouldn't belittle that particular concern (within reason).
how is voting against something because you don't understand it a legitimate reason? You vote against something because you disagree with it, not on the basis of its complexity.


if the choice is between (a) something unclear and convoluted and (b) something clear and understandable, you can understand people wanting to vote out of (a). in a way, the complexity of it is itself undemocratic because you can't make a realistic choice when one of the options is not understandable.

it's the same principle one of the great british judges, Lord Bingham, described when he unpacked the sub-rules which make up his working definition of the 'rule of law'. the first sub-rule is that the law should be accessible and intelligible:

First, the law must be accessible and so far as possible intelligible, clear and predictable. This seems obvious: if everyone is bound by the law they must be able without undue difficulty to find out what it is, even if that means taking advice (as it usually will), and the answer when given should be sufficiently clear that a course of action can be based on it.

Obvious this point is, but not, I think, trivial. Given the legislative hyperactivity which appears to have become a permanent feature of our governance - in 2004, some 3500 pages of primary legislation; in 2003, nearly 9000 pages of statutory instruments - the sheer volume of current legislation raises serious problems of accessibility, despite the internet. And this is compounded by the British tradition of parliamentary draftsmanship which, for all its technical virtuosity, depends so heavily on cross-reference and incorporation as on occasion to baffle.


so here you see the same problem, complexity to the degree that it makes the rules unclear, being heavily criticised in respect of laws made.

and it's not something people don't understand out of laziness or stupidity. it just really is confusing and convoluted.

who here understands it?
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by gibson »

@musketjr It's stupid to say that every law must be intelligible. First off what does that even mean? Must it be intelligible to my 6 year old brother? Must it be intelligible to a construction worker with an 8th grade education? Or must it just be intelligible to a lawyer who's spend 6 years studying law? Obviously it can't be intelligible to everyone cause some cannot read and some cannot even comprehend language. So where do you draw the line on who it has to be intelligible to and why draw the line there and not elsewhere?
Of course it's not reasonable to expect everyone to have an understanding of the eu that is thorough enough for them to be able to have an informed vote, which is why it was stupid for everyone to vote on it. It's ridiculous for people to vote no or yes on something due to its complexity. They either need to educate themselves or not vote. If it really is as complex as you're making it out to be, the average Joe shouldn't be voting on it. The US federal tax code is supposedly 70,000 pages long. I don't vote on what to add or take away from it, I leave it to the politicians who I voted into office and who's job is to understand it and represent me. People should be voting on issues like marijuana and other basic things.
Anyway, your sentence about a being complex and b not being complex isn't even accurate about brexit. If the eu is really so complex than people had to choses. They could vote for A, staying in the unclear and convuluted system, or vote B leave the clear and convuluted system. You can't that decision because both decisions could have drastic consequences that are beyond your understanding. The obvious solution is either to educate yourself or not vote.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Laurence Drake »

agreed, laws should be unintelligible tbh
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

I think on a basic level everyone understands what EU institutions do and they are able to give a vote on that. Same thing happens on a national politics level, you don't need to know all the intricacies of your own national institutions just to be able to elect an MP.

But, granted, EU institutions are an extra level of political abstraction which sits on top of national politics and may prove difficult to understand for people who are already complacent about their own national politics. The power schema of EU institutions is rather simple, I already drew the outlines in an earlier post:

There is a legislative power, the European Parliament, which is comprised of elected MEPs from every member state. However, compared to your usual national parliament the EP doesn't have legislative initiative on most issues. It does have the final word on the EU budget, though.

The European Commission is one half of the executive power, the other half being the Council. The EC is basically the government of the EU, its commissioners are like national govt ministers and they handle similar issues (financials, agriculture, labour etc). They are voted in to power by the Euro Parliament, each commissioner having to clear a hearings session in their respective parliamentary commission. After all these hurdles have been cleared, the candidate commission can be voted by the E Parl in plenary session.

I have to mention here that the European Parliament has its own parties, with which lots of national parties are affiliated. So, for example, most centre-right parties are affiliated with the EPP (European People's Party), some centre-left parties are affiliated to the Party of European Socialists (PES), others are members of the Green Alliance, etc. On different issues, they may vote according to their party guidelines or according to their own choice or country interests.

The Council is the other half of the executive, which is basically like a bridge institution between national governments and the EU. Every Council meeting takes place on specific issues, like a council on agriculture or a council on the budget, where every EU country is represented by their own government's minister on that issue. The official name of this institution is Council of the EU.

Finally, there is another "council", which is called the European Council, and which only takes place about twice every six months. It's a political meeting of all the heads of states from the EU which allows them to discuss the big issues, like the future of the EU, major strategies, and so on. This "seasonal" institution is now headed by a president, who basically represents the EU on an international level. His task is also to prepare these big European Councils and try to build consensus on decisions. There is some debate right now if this president should be directly elected or not. The pro argument is that it would increase democratic accountability of EU leaders, the drawback would be that it would basically create a presidential political model which would go against the current parliamentary political model of the EU.

Anyway, I'll just add to this wall of text that right now the budget of the EU is rather small, about 1% of the total EU GDP, so the EU doesn't hold that much financial power as its detractors imply. Its main force relies in legislative power, in harmonising legislation that is applied across the continent.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

musketjr wrote:
gibson wrote:
musketjr wrote:early in the thread Dolan notes that the EU is not well understood.

how it works is very confusing and convoluted and you have to take that into account when laymen (that is, everyone who hasn't studied or worked with the EU enough to actually understand it, or almost everyone) are thinking about it. so i think that people wanting to opt out of something they're unable to understand due to its complexity is legitimate. i studied it and i have no idea how it works. relatedly (apparently relatedly isn't a word, but i feel like it should be so i'm just going to keep using it until it is), one of the benefits of a codified constitution is that what are inevitably a vast, disparate array of rules and principles are brought together in one place, making the way the country operates more transparent and understandable and consequently enhancing the democratic process.

that said i am against brexit, but i wouldn't belittle that particular concern (within reason).
how is voting against something because you don't understand it a legitimate reason? You vote against something because you disagree with it, not on the basis of its complexity.


if the choice is between (a) something unclear and convoluted and (b) something clear and understandable, you can understand people wanting to vote out of (a). in a way, the complexity of it is itself undemocratic because you can't make a realistic choice when one of the options is not understandable.

it's the same principle one of the great british judges, Lord Bingham, described when he unpacked the sub-rules which make up his working definition of the 'rule of law'. the first sub-rule is that the law should be accessible and intelligible:

First, the law must be accessible and so far as possible intelligible, clear and predictable. This seems obvious: if everyone is bound by the law they must be able without undue difficulty to find out what it is, even if that means taking advice (as it usually will), and the answer when given should be sufficiently clear that a course of action can be based on it.

Obvious this point is, but not, I think, trivial. Given the legislative hyperactivity which appears to have become a permanent feature of our governance - in 2004, some 3500 pages of primary legislation; in 2003, nearly 9000 pages of statutory instruments - the sheer volume of current legislation raises serious problems of accessibility, despite the internet. And this is compounded by the British tradition of parliamentary draftsmanship which, for all its technical virtuosity, depends so heavily on cross-reference and incorporation as on occasion to baffle.


so here you see the same problem, complexity to the degree that it makes the rules unclear, being heavily criticised in respect of laws made.

and it's not something people don't understand out of laziness or stupidity. it just really is confusing and convoluted.

who here understands it?


I have to say - I totally agree with you @musketjr - Well said :flowers:
If you cannot understand it, you cannot participate in it, and that in itself makes it fundamentally undemocratic.
The saying; "keep it simple stupid" is highly relevant to governing IMO :!:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

this video are giving some insight to the lack of democracy in EU
phpBB [video]


The issue with flawed democracy in EU, has been debated for decades - but nothing has been, or are being done to improve it. ON the contrary I would say.
I bet if it had been, we would not have a Brexit, and we would not have the ongoing debate in several other countries in EU, and populist party gaining popularity for wanting to do the same thing as UK. Go figure :!:
PPL voting in the 70s and i the 80s voted for a trade marked, and not he UNITED STATES OF EU.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

That's not true though, the EU parliament can have a vote of no-confidence on the Commission and force it to resign. This almost happened in 1999. More recently, the Commission had a no-confidence vote on Juncker's tax dealings in Luxembourg (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-ju ... 3Q20141127). It is true, though, that the requirement for passing a vote of no-confidence is high, you need two thirds of the total votes in the parliament.

So there are democratic ways to remove the Commission. And the parliament is already elected by the people.

That's not to say it's all rosy and great, but not as bad as these critics have it. Let's not forget the EU is not a fully-fledged state, so some of the institutions do not mirror national institutions completely. So, if you expect a level of accountability similar to that of national politics, you may be disappointed, since not that much power is vested in EU institutions. There's no actual defence or military commission department, at least not explicitly called that way. Each country still manages its own diplomacy, the EU doesn't really represent every EU member in foreign relations. There is a representative for foreign relations but she doesn't really close treaties for every EU member. That sovereign right still resides with every EU state. So you can't expect to hold them accountable for stuff they don't actually manage.

Another example, there's no ministry of finance at the EU that levies its own taxes. That right resides with each state, the EU does not directly raise any tax and has no authority to collect taxes anywhere. Its budget is built indirectly from funds re-directed from national treasuries.

So, as such, there is no actual European or EU taxpayer that could hold EU officials accountable on how money are spent. This can be done by the EU parliament, you can contact your member of the EU parliament and ask them to draft a formal question to the Commission, whereby you can ask the Commission whatever you want about what is in their remit.
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan wrote:
you can contact your member of the EU parliament and ask them to draft a formal question to the Commission, whereby you can ask the Commission whatever you want about what is in their remit.


Gee, I wonder how often that happens? Wonder how many ppl living in EU, even know how that representative are? Bet the lobbyist from BIG Corporations and money interests does though :lol:

EU parliament can have a vote of no-confidence on the Commission and force it to resign. This almost happened in 1999.

Wow, it almost happened, ONCE :uglylol:

Guess I rest my case :shock:
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Re: England maybe leave EU june 23.

Post by Dolan »

If you voted in an EU election, you'd know who your representative is. But since you're not in an EU state, you can't know that. :smirk:

Bet the lobbyist from BIG Corporations and money interests does though

How is that relevant?

Do you know that a few EU MEPs have been sentenced to prison for taking bribes from lobbyists?
http://www.euractiv.com/section/central ... -sentence/
http://www.euractiv.com/section/future- ... s-scandal/
http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... g-scandal/

They're already in prison, right now.

Show me how many members of the US congress go to prison for taking money from lobbyists... Or from Norway, your country.
What, are you saying everyone is pristine like Snow White over there?

Wow, it almost happened, ONCE

It almost happened once that the Commission was close to losing a vote, yeah. Which was very significant, because it takes two thirds of the EU parliament votes to depose a commission.
But there have been many no-confidence votes in the European parliament, not just one. It's not like this happens every day in every parliament.

It's a bit more difficult to get a no-confidence motion voted in the EU parliament, because EU politics is very fragmented, lots of different parties and none of them has absolute majority. So, it takes a lot of negotiation and bargaining just to get a vote going. Just as it takes to vote the actual commission.

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