This makes me really sad

[benj89]

I fear you missed my initial point. What this thread started out as devolved into what caused the start of this thread. Seriously, when women are looked at as objects, they get treated as such. No, objectification is not something that everyone does. Truly, I don't care if you started your own thread discussing how a woman's beauty is her main worth. Hell, objectify all you want there. My point was, that sort of conversation should be had elsewhere and not in this particular thread. I wasn't offended by your metaphor, I've heard it too many times so I'm just numb to it. Why did you need a metaphor at all? You didn't.

Whatever happened to Arriah anyway? I didn't find her to be an asshole at all, though I didn't read everything that she posted.

I don't know what "hs" stands for, but if you felt like I was being arrogant, I apologize. Seriously, some of the things you write, I really enjoy reading (even if I don't agree) since you obviously put some thought into them. Unfortunately, this thread does not showcase that.

Well I do believe that everyone objectifies. I don’t feel like developing on that though; kinda like racist narratives, pointless. These terms are used by SJWs who basically call someone else bigots for their own personal gains. They are toxic and anti free speech.

I also totally understand why women would feel offended by guys behavior online. However I've played video games enough to know that gender is just an excuse to trash talk, and women should take it as such.

No clue what happened to Arriah, I thought she was an interesting person too, until I saw comments that were too much for me. Can’t really recall. The way an admin acted at the time frustrated me too. I think she was getting offended by very small things, and following her intentions regarding moderation would have lead to complete censorship on ESOC.
Hs= off topic in French, my bad. I do think you were arrogant but it’s fine, I don’t get offended by someone I don’t know on a website. I also do tend to be arrogant sometimes.
That’s the first time I see you posting, you should be more active on the forums.

[benj89]

honestly benji from what you've said it seems like you either live in a completely different world from the rest of us, ( which I guess is possible) or you have no actual real life experience and are basing everything you've said so far on television, hollywood, things you've read on the internet, or 2nd hand accounts from friends

I would’ve appreciated if you actually argued about what I said, instead of saying that. That’s some umeu type of answer. If I remember correctly you’re from Tennessee, so then again I understand why you don’t get it. But living in small towns and big cities are two very different approaches to human interaction. It probably gives you a fake sense that tons of opportunities are available, that you can get the “best” out of everything, while it might just be a never ending quest. The guy who lives in a small village, doing a job he enjoys, fishing on weekends with close friends and a not so fancy wife is probably the happiest guy on earth. I’m still considering that option.

[benj89]

I am not interested in having women with whom I extensively discuss politics - that's what my male friends are for. It is much more important that she is healthy, takes care of herself and is a good mother, rather than being an intellectual or a warrior.

I get your point and it makes sense that you feel the need to compartmentalize. I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing, and seeing the argument of those who disagree with you, it might even be a good thing. It just leads me to the following thought, more practical: what happens once you get older, you and your friends got children, you got 2 weeks of vacations per year which you will spend with family, and you can’t get to spend some times with your friends more than 1-2 a month. I agree that you could still have vacations with friends and family, but that's only 2 weeks per year.
However you got a healthy wife, great mom for your kids, very thoughtful, yet you can’t have a discussion about politics or any complex subject. Don’t you think it’d be frustrating? Since you can’t really talk about these subjects at work. I’d consider what you described as being very important too, but some balance is truly needed in my opinion.

I’m not advocating the opposite, i.e. doing a dick size contest with your wife, I actually don’t like this idea of power couples. I haven’t seen many, but I’m not convinced that it’s a healthy relationship in the long term.

[gibson]

honestly benji from what you've said it seems like you either live in a completely different world from the rest of us, ( which I guess is possible) or you have no actual real life experience and are basing everything you've said so far on television, hollywood, things you've read on the internet, or 2nd hand accounts from friends

I would’ve appreciated if you actually argued about what I said, instead of saying that. That’s some umeu type of answer. If I remember correctly you’re from Tennessee, so then again I understand why you don’t get it. But living in small towns and big cities are two very different approaches to human interaction. It probably gives you a fake sense that tons of opportunities are available, that you can get the “best” out of everything, while it might just be a never ending quest. The guy who lives in a small village, doing a job he enjoys, fishing on weekends with close friends and a not so fancy wife is probably the happiest guy on earth. I’m still considering that option.

I mean I live in knoxville, and the population of the knoxville metropolitan area is 850,000. I mean it's no New York but it's not some tiny town either......

[deleted_user0]

Might respond to it later, but why would you assume i said you were lying. I said it didnt seem correct, which also means that you couldve been mistaken, couldve been a typo dor extra 0. Just shows your mentality i guess

[spanky4ever]

Oh boy @benj89

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your really put your hearth and soul in to this. I dont think I have ever seen such long post before - its like an essay
The one thing I think is seeping trough all your writings, is a perception of others as "things" or objects, and you are a rational "chooser" who goes after what you and society find attractive - at the time.
I also feel quite provoked by your rating of ppl on a scale from 1 - 10, like some cattle's you might want to buy! It just rubs me the wrong way, I guess
To me the discussion reminds me more of a person going to a marked to buy the "best animal" - than a person with real feelings, looking for for reciprocal love and mutual respect

Good luck Benj89 - I hope you find something that are satisfying to you - in the end

[XeeleeFlower]

I fear you missed my initial point. What this thread started out as devolved into what caused the start of this thread. Seriously, when women are looked at as objects, they get treated as such. No, objectification is not something that everyone does. Truly, I don't care if you started your own thread discussing how a woman's beauty is her main worth. Hell, objectify all you want there. My point was, that sort of conversation should be had elsewhere and not in this particular thread. I wasn't offended by your metaphor, I've heard it too many times so I'm just numb to it. Why did you need a metaphor at all? You didn't.

Whatever happened to Arriah anyway? I didn't find her to be an asshole at all, though I didn't read everything that she posted.

I don't know what "hs" stands for, but if you felt like I was being arrogant, I apologize. Seriously, some of the things you write, I really enjoy reading (even if I don't agree) since you obviously put some thought into them. Unfortunately, this thread does not showcase that.

Well I do believe that everyone objectifies. I don’t feel like developing on that though; kinda like racist narratives, pointless. These terms are used by SJWs who basically call someone else bigots for their own personal gains. They are toxic and anti free speech.

I also totally understand why women would feel offended by guys behavior online. However I've played video games enough to know that gender is just an excuse to trash talk, and women should take it as such.

No clue what happened to Arriah, I thought she was an interesting person too, until I saw comments that were too much for me. Can’t really recall. The way an admin acted at the time frustrated me too. I think she was getting offended by very small things, and following her intentions regarding moderation would have lead to complete censorship on ESOC.
Hs= off topic in French, my bad. I do think you were arrogant but it’s fine, I don’t get offended by someone I don’t know on a website. I also do tend to be arrogant sometimes.
That’s the first time I see you posting, you should be more active on the forums.

You implied (or perhaps I inferred) that I am dumb in a previous post, and here you are implying that I am a sjw who is toxic and anti free speech. Perhaps I am dumb, maybe I am a sjw, could be that I am toxic and anti free speech, I don’t know. I do know that this is the first time that those labels have been directed at me (other than dumb) and that I do not perceive myself to be any of those things. Of course, I also don’t like to throw labels on people and put individuals into boxes because humans are incredibly complex creatures. I do understand the purposes from a scientific point of view, but even then, it’s typically made clear that specific individuals “tend to”, “are inclined to”, “predisposed to”, etc. There’s also the good old bell curve. I’m digressing a bit here, but I’m trying to think ahead so that there’s not a flurry of people saying that labels are important for stuff.

Anyway, I stand by what I said. No, not everyone objectifies. People define objectification in many different ways, but I just look at it like an individual is only valued based upon how they look. You could see a picture of me and think, “damn that bitch is ugly af. She should get plastic surgery” You could see a beautiful woman and think “damn she’s hot af. I’d do her” Either way, you’re objectifying. I enjoy beauty just as much as the next person and appreciate seeing beautiful humans. The difference is that I recognize that they are a person who has other things going on besides what their shell looks like. Frankly, who someone is is far more important to me than their appearance. If someone is simply attractive, but ugly inside, I no longer find them attractive. I know that I am not alone in this way of thinking. I don’t even think I’m in the minority, but maybe I’m dumb.

There’s a world of difference between finding someone attractive and what someone said earlier about women not having personalities, we all pretty much like the same things, and basically the only difference between women is their appearance and that appearance is how we are to be valued and judged.

Perhaps you define objectification differently and that is why there is a misunderstanding. I think that words are often interpreted and defined differently by different people, which causes a rift. This is also why I have a love/loathe relationship with philosophy. My interpretation of objectification may or may not be correct, it’s just how I view it.

To tie this back to the topic at hand, I feel like there’s a lot of sexual frustration amongst some (note the word some, please) men, particularly younger men, who may have not had the best of luck with women. Thus, they lash out to women online under the protection of anonymity because 1) they can and 2) they think they are the majority. I believe that the sexual frustration is due to many factors, but the red pill/pua bullshit that is so prominent online, particularly reddit and the dark web, plays the largest role. These “alphas and betas” tend to objectify, thus a woman is not a person to them, but an object - a trophy or a piece of shit. If she’s not their trophy or their friends trophy, can’t/ won’t be their trophy, she’s a piece of shit.

In my head (I do tend to overthink), I view objectification as the main cause of why women have problems online. Thus, I found it to be ridiculous that the thread went the way it did. If I hadn’t been objectified for much of my life, I would have even found the devolving to be ironic. Unfortunately, it struck a nerve and I may come across as too abrasive.

As far as posting more often goes, not sure if you were being sarcastic, but if you were serious, how I am online is pretty much how I am in real life. I listen more than I talk so online, I read more than I write. Of course, online I lurk in the shadows of many different places, which would be super creepy and dangerous if I did that in real life.

[Goodspeed]

In my head (I do tend to overthink), I view objectification as the main cause of why women have problems online.

Overall I found your post quite agreeable but this part struck me as strange. Didn't you just define objectification as judging a person by how they look? How would that be the biggest issue facing women online? Nobody here knows what anyone looks like.
I think the main reason women have trouble online is rather obvious: they are in the minority. Of course there's quite a difference between 4chan and /r/TwoXChromosomes, and those are good examples too because they kind of illustrate my point: the smaller the percentage of women in a community, the more trouble they'll have. Makes sense. This would cause issues in real life communities as well, for example women in the army have to deal with a ton of shit too.

[XeeleeFlower]

@Goodspeed

notification

My apologies for not being clear. What I was saying was that men who objectify don't look at women as though they are a person. We are simply an object. This affects how women are treated. With regards to queen's op, the guys who say shit to her, probably wouldn't say the same thing if she were a man. Of course, I can't know that, but it's what I think. It doesn't matter if people don't know what we look like. Objectification is part of who these guys are so if they read/hear that someone is a woman, she's an object. I don't know if that makes any more sense, sometimes I don't convey my thoughts as well as I think I do.

I'm not so sure that being a minority is the main problem. It does have an affect, but just look at this site and ESO for example. I only know of about 10 women who play this game and only a few who post here. Sure, there's been some issues, but for the most part, the men here are lovely and actually treat women as though we are equals. I just think it goes a bit deeper than being a minority. Of course, perhaps because women are a minority, some guys may not have much experience with women so they don't know how to react to a woman... I don't know. As I said before, I was objectified for much of my life so it's through this biased lens that I view many things. It may not be correct, but it makes sense to me, and until I'm shown otherwise, it's how I'll think.

[Goodspeed]

@Goodspeed

notification

My apologies for not being clear. What I was saying was that men who objectify don't look at women as though they are a person. We are simply an object. This affects how women are treated.

But then "objectification" is more than simply judging a person by their looks. What exactly is objectification to you? Yes women are often defined by their gender online, but this whole "objectification" thing seems like it's missing the point to me. I think I would rather just call it sexism.

Objectification is part of who these guys are so if they read/hear that someone is a woman, she's an object.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. She's not an object, she's a woman and as a woman gets treated differently. I treat women differently than men, as does everyone else, because statistically women appreciate a different kind of behaviour than men. Then due to the general lack of women online, the fact that sex is involved, and the loud minority of sexist men, this can lead to trouble. Going by the generally accepted definition of "objectification", I don't think it's at play here because our appearances are all question marks. Now if this was a situation where a woman posted her picture and a biography online and the picture is literally all that's being talked about, then I would agree with you that she's being "objectified".

As for how I would define the word, I posted that earlier ITT. In short, we are all objects so why wouldn't we be treated as such? A rather boring view, I'll admit.

[benj89]

You implied (or perhaps I inferred) that I am dumb in a previous post, and here you are implying that I am a sjw who is toxic and anti free speech. Perhaps I am dumb, maybe I am a sjw, could be that I am toxic and anti free speech, I don’t know. I do know that this is the first time that those labels have been directed at me (other than dumb) and that I do not perceive myself to be any of those things. Of course, I also don’t like to throw labels on people and put individuals into boxes because humans are incredibly complex creatures. I do understand the purposes from a scientific point of view, but even then, it’s typically made clear that specific individuals “tend to”, “are inclined to”, “predisposed to”, etc. There’s also the good old bell curve. I’m digressing a bit here, but I’m trying to think ahead so that there’s not a flurry of people saying that labels are important for stuff.

Not sure why you are playing the victim here. You actually used the words “idiocy” and “dumb” to describe me at first.
I didn’t mean to put you in a box, just that your comment was anti-free speech and it reminded me of all these SJWs.
Yea, I should have added “are inclined to” before each statement, it would have been more accurate indeed. I could have also mentioned that my life experience doesn’t follow the central limit theorem therefore I can’t interpret it as the population. Not sure what you meant with the bell curve.
I do believe that OP wrote something dumb and I just replied common sense to her, but I tried to show empathy and derailed on what I felt was a more interesting subject. Also because that's nice to see women speaking up, I myself only met one in years playing aoe ("do you wanna play with a girl?"). However anyone who’s been online more than a few months know that gender is an excuse for flaming. Boys do tend to flame and fight, it translates into another form of fighting when they grow up, that’s the way they are. Therefore a complaint about retard in the chat being less retard would have been more accurate than making it a gender issue. At least that's how I see it.

Anyway, I stand by what I said. No, not everyone objectifies. People define objectification in many different ways, but I just look at it like an individual is only valued based upon how they look. You could see a picture of me and think, “damn that bitch is ugly af. She should get plastic surgery” You could see a beautiful woman and think “damn she’s hot af. I’d do her” Either way, you’re objectifying. I enjoy beauty just as much as the next person and appreciate seeing beautiful humans. The difference is that I recognize that they are a person who has other things going on besides what their shell looks like. Frankly, who someone is is far more important to me than their appearance. If someone is simply attractive, but ugly inside, I no longer find them attractive. I know that I am not alone in this way of thinking. I don’t even think I’m in the minority, but maybe I’m dumb.

Everyone does objectify so we disagree here, but I’m not interested in arguing about that.
I’d just think you’re screwed since surgery won’t make you cuter, c.f. how it went for megan fox.
I agree with all the rest of your message, I don’t think I said the opposite.
Generally speaking, I do believe men care more about women’s physique than the opposite when considering a meaningful relationship.

There’s a world of difference between finding someone attractive and what someone said earlier about women not having personalities, we all pretty much like the same things, and basically the only difference between women is their appearance and that appearance is how we are to be valued and judged.

I don’t think he said that the only difference between women is their appearance. From what I remember he said that he considered physique to be very important in a woman, that they gossip more and are less interested in sciences than men. Could you quote where he said that appearance is the only difference between women and that it’s how they should be valued and judged?

Perhaps you define objectification differently and that is why there is a misunderstanding. I think that words are often interpreted and defined differently by different people, which causes a rift. This is also why I have a love/loathe relationship with philosophy. My interpretation of objectification may or may not be correct, it’s just how I view it.

This is why I said you should post more, you seem open to discussion.

To tie this back to the topic at hand, I feel like there’s a lot of sexual frustration amongst some (note the word some, please) men, particularly younger men, who may have not had the best of luck with women. Thus, they lash out to women online under the protection of anonymity because 1) they can and 2) they think they are the majority. I believe that the sexual frustration is due to many factors, but the red pill/pua bullshit that is so prominent online, particularly reddit and the dark web, plays the largest role. These “alphas and betas” tend to objectify, thus a woman is not a person to them, but an object - a trophy or a piece of shit. If she’s not their trophy or their friends trophy, can’t/ won’t be their trophy, she’s a piece of shit.

Most male teenagers are sexually frustrated. It has nothing to do with luck, more with the fact that when a guy is 15 he feels like having sex with everything that moves and looks like a female, mostly due to testosterone levels I believe, which differ among every male.
I actually had to google what red pill/pua means, however I’ve noticed this “game” irl as I previously mentioned. About the trophy or piece of shit, I believe you’re talking about a small minority of guys. I could probably find at least as much women forums trash talking about men and the patriarchy. Not sure though, the only time I opened reddit was to get the alphabay market link.
About these guys, I believe they literally apply what I talked about, putting reason before passion. I'd guess they don't only consider physique but something similar than what I talked about, but again never read the theory behind it. I only opened a wikipedia page with the words they use and found it amusing.

In my head (I do tend to overthink), I view objectification as the main cause of why women have problems online. Thus, I found it to be ridiculous that the thread went the way it did. If I hadn’t been objectified for much of my life, I would have even found the devolving to be ironic. Unfortunately, it struck a nerve and I may come across as too abrasive.

Yea, you’ve reacted based on feelings and personal experience. However, if you try to get an objective understanding of the situation, you might realize that women don’t have more problem than guys online. They probably do feel more often threatened, because more sensitive. At least that's how I see it, I might be completely wrong and any male online is an avid reader of the red pill/pua stuff you mentioned. Reality probably lies between what you and I believe to be true.
If you are from the US, I will ask you a similar question that I asked to Umeu about his sister suffering from racism in the US: could you develop on how being a women negatively impacted your life so far?

As far as posting more often goes, not sure if you were being sarcastic, but if you were serious, how I am online is pretty much how I am in real life. I listen more than I talk so online, I read more than I write. Of course, online I lurk in the shadows of many different places, which would be super creepy and dangerous if I did that in real life.

I wasn’t being sarcastic. When I am, I try to make it obvious/funny. I don’t like passive aggressive comments. More listening less talking sounds like a good concept though.

[deleted_user0]

I didnt see you ask me that anywhere, but maybe i missed it in the midst of your walls of text. In any case, when you get discrminated against in twitch chat based on your gender or skin color, maybe we can talk again on the subject. Perhaps by then you will know a little about the subject you are trying to talk about.

[benj89]

I didnt see you ask me that anywhere, but maybe i missed it in the midst of your walls of text. In any case, when you get discrminated against in twitch chat based on your gender or skin color, maybe we can talk again on the subject. Perhaps by then you will know a little about the subject you are trying to talk about.

maybe you missed it but it's never too late: how did your sister suffer from racism in the US? Even better, you spent some time there, so how did you suffer from racism in the US?
some reading that might interest you: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fake-dis ... title-like

I don't think there is a need to talk again on the subject, just put common sense before your feelings.

[XeeleeFlower]

@benj89

notification

I will certainly continue this discussion, but 1) would you like to start a new thread since this will surely go very off topic (kinda already has) 2) I need a bit of time to reread and I have a long workday tomorrow 3) I need to get ready for bed. Alternatively, we could move this to a pm. :-)

[benj89]

@benj89

notification

I will certainly continue this discussion, but 1) would you like to start a new thread since this will surely go very off topic (kinda already has) 2) I need a bit of time to reread and I have a long workday tomorrow 3) I need to get ready for bed. Alternatively, we could move this to a pm. :-)

no problem feel free to answer via pm

[Goodspeed]

Going off topic is fine at this point, the thread is dead anyway. Besides, the subject is at least somewhat relevant to it.

I don’t think he said that the only difference between women is their appearance.

I think what he said was women don't generally have personalities, or at least less than men.

Gendarmes posts ITT have been under a lot of scrutiny for a good reason, but I do like the perspective he seemed to be trying to view everything from: objective and based on evolution. It's a shame that he failed so miserably, but even so there is some truth in his posts if you look hard enough.

[deleted_user0]

I didnt see you ask me that anywhere, but maybe i missed it in the midst of your walls of text. In any case, when you get discrminated against in twitch chat based on your gender or skin color, maybe we can talk again on the subject. Perhaps by then you will know a little about the subject you are trying to talk about.

maybe you missed it but it's never too late: how did your sister suffer from racism in the US? Even better, you spent some time there, so how did you suffer from racism in the US?
some reading that might interest you: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fake-dis ... title-like

I don't think there is a need to talk again on the subject, just put common sense before your feelings.

Its funny you think a news article should tell e my own experiences are wrong. Appealing to common sense is what people do when they have no arguments to bring to the table, and thus they throw some empty concept around which they cannot possibly give any substance. Anyway you are completely taking this out of context. The debate issue i had was with metis refusing to admit thereiis a problem in the us and then he does sneakily call other people racists. If i say the usa has a problem with sexual orientation that deviates, it would be silly to deny this, even though 90% of the world has worse problems with this. However this doesnt mean the usa cant be adressed about this.

And if you seem to believe you can only speak of a subject or a place if you personally experienced it, i really wonder why you think you have something meaningful to say on this topic? Care to share your experiences? How being a white heterosexual male has ever negatively affected your life in a meaningful way? Please enlighten the world.

In any case, i don't agree with this view, hence i'm reluctant to talk about personal experiences alot when it comes to racism or discrimination, even though you baited me into it a bit... You will end up like metis and make arguments such as my grandpa wasnt a racist, so racism doesnt exist.

[Kaiserklein]

This thread makes me really sad

[jesus3]

No offensh to you guysh, but why ish thish thread shtill going? Jusht take a walk outshite and chil would be my advice

blessings

[Goodspeed]

It's an interesting subject. Is that not why we're here? To share our perspectives on interesting (to me, preferably controversial) subjects?

You can't please everyone, I suppose.

[benj89]

Its funny you think a news article should tell e my own experiences are wrong. Appealing to common sense is what people do when they have no arguments to bring to the table, and thus they throw some empty concept around which they cannot possibly give any substance. Anyway you are completely taking this out of context. The debate issue i had was with metis refusing to admit thereiis a problem in the us and then he does sneakily call other people racists. If i say the usa has a problem with sexual orientation that deviates, it would be silly to deny this, even though 90% of the world has worse problems with this. However this doesnt mean the usa cant be adressed about this.

And if you seem to believe you can only speak of a subject or a place if you personally experienced it, i really wonder why you think you have something meaningful to say on this topic? Care to share your experiences? How being a white heterosexual male has ever negatively affected your life in a meaningful way? Please enlighten the world.

In any case, i don't agree with this view, hence i'm reluctant to talk about personal experiences alot when it comes to racism or discrimination, even though you baited me into it a bit... You will end up like metis and make arguments such as my grandpa wasnt a racist, so racism doesnt exist.

The reading was in reference to the article you sent me, which you obviously randomly googled at the time.
We actually had this debate issue too, and you never answered the question. Here again, you don’t answer it while it would be constructive to bring your own experience or the one of your sister. There is a racism problem in the USA as in any country, however my point was that it is arguably the most advantageous and less racist place to live for a black person in the world. I’ve said that a few times already and I've brought some evidence for it. Your last paragraph is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with "a view" that you created, it's just about supporting your claims with reasonable evidence.

Here is what you still don’t get: I don’t complain and I’ve seen what OP considers as sexism on a video game first hand (not on aoe, but counter strike). You haven’t seen/experienced racism in the US first hand, at least I don’t think so. At best you vaguely heard something about it. Better, you googled articles or watched the news.
If I wanted to complain and point out an issue, I would detach myself from the situation and put what I consider to be common sense before my feelings. Here are two examples:

I’ve been discriminated against in the US because I am white, for some jobs you need to either be extremely well connected or a minority. Asians male have it even harder than whites, and I don’t think the guys who didn’t invite me for an interview while my friend who got the interview and the job because she was a « she » from an underrepresented country were racist. Her resume was less good than mine on every aspect. Her family is extremely rich, and she’s been privileged her whole life, yet she got the same affirmative action than a black girl educated by an unemployed single mom in the Bronx. Not only I don’t believe it, but I’ve experienced it first hand because as I mentioned somewhere else, I’ve interned at a head hunting firm. Their firm, like most nowadays, believe in affirmative action (or are forced too). Therefore, I would denounce the way affirmative action is used in the US and how they’re forced to use it that way because of some leftist pressure, not the fact that they are anti white.

I’ve also been discriminated against because of the health issues I’ve had in the past, I have obvious points for that. People want to hire/pay someone who has a perfect health condition, and I understand that. It’s also well known that you shouldn’t mention health issues you’ve had in general, so that was my mistake. Therefore, I’d denounce the lie about the non discrimination principle that they make you sign everywhere in the US, instead of denouncing the fact that they discriminate people who’ve had heart disease.

Yea, I'm exposing personal experience and the risk of people saying "first world problem". At least I bring something to the discussion, even though it wasn't me complaining in the first place.

Comparing it with here: the guys who insulted OP aren’t sexist, they were just being the typical retard on a twitch chat. Stop being self centered and denounce the root of the problem, not just what affects you, it’s much more efficient and serves everyone. If you believe that the root of the problem in twitch chat is sexism or racism, then we can discuss that, but it seems like you don't want to. If people get offended, a moderation policy should be applied to everyone that insults. I might have been harsh when I said OP was dumb for writing this, what I meant was that it isn't constructive.

I feel like discussion with you are often very one sided, i.e. you base your comments on what I say/my own experience instead of what you think/your own experience. I’ll just ask it one last time: care to elaborate about how you or your sister experienced racism in the US?

To answer kaiser post, your answers about immigration in Sweden along with soldier's comments made me real sad too, but I kept those feelings. Behave and do the same, the goal is to keep this thread feeling free.

[deleted_user0]

No I do not care to elaborate on that. Sharing such a personal experience will not do anything to prove a structural problem with racism, nor does one story that hints towards to the opposite prove the contrary. Studies which provide data, and articles that elaborate on these studies however do much more to prove it. However, according to you, this is not valid evidence, one must come with a sob story (all in the while keeping this thread emotion free) before benj will consider the argument.

I'm not a fan of affirmitive action, but considering many other studies and experiences shared by people on both sides show that you are more likely to get a job on the sole qualification of being white, you are only being slightly disadvantaged at best. If that's the best thing you can come up with for being disadvantaged because of your skin color or gender, perhaps you should pause to think how it compares to what others have to put up with.

It sucks that you were discriminated against because of health (considering that it wouldnt interfere with whatever you needed to do) but as you say, health is something which atleast, for now, is something you can hide from others who have no right to know this or use it to come to a judgment. Skin color or gender isn't. This ofcourse doesn't make it any better to discriminate based on health but it does limit the occasions in which such discrimination will occur. It's not something, you are most likely confronted with in your daily life. unless you are disabled or something.

Therefore, I’d denounce the lie about the non discrimination principle that they make you sign everywhere in the US, instead of denouncing the fact that they discriminate people who’ve had heart disease.

^this is confusingly written and im not sure what you mean.

I feel like discussion with you are often very one sided, i.e. you base your comments on what I say/my own experience instead of what you think/your own experience.

^same for that

also i dont recall linking you any article, but whatever. the link you sent me doesnt really say anything useful or new. i dont generally read news, i'd rather read scientific studies or harry potter.

[spanky4ever]

Now that was an honest and good post @benj89

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. But the real reason why affirmative actions are needed, is because there are so much Racism

If Racism didn't occur, there wouldn't be any need for affirmative actions. The ONE actions are made to counter the OTHER action

Therefore, I would denounce the way affirmative action is used in the US and how they’re forced to use it that way because of some leftist pressure, not the fact that they are anti white.

[XeeleeFlower]

@benj89

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This is going to be a long read. Grab a beer, glass of wine, whisky, or whatever your drink of choice is.

Not sure why you are playing the victim here.

I’m not playing the victim. Not sure why you think I am. Please clarify.

You actually used the words “idiocy” and “dumb” to describe me at first.

Did I? Am I to assume that you are over the age of 25 then? If so, then I still did not call you those things. I heavily implied that the actions (writings) were dumb. I try not to call people names. I call their actions how I see them. If you feel offended by that, then I apologize for any slight that you may have felt. Nonetheless, I do think that it was ridiculous and I don’t take back what I said.

I didn’t mean to put you in a box, just that your comment was anti-free speech and it reminded me of all these SJWs.

No, my comments were not anti-free speech. Show me how. I am very much in favor of free speech and any consequences that may arise from said speech.

Yea, I should have added “are inclined to” before each statement, it would have been more accurate indeed. I could have also mentioned that my life experience doesn’t follow the central limit theorem therefore I can’t interpret it as the population. Not sure what you meant with the bell curve.

I mean, you don’t have to say it before every sentence, but maybe starting your writing with that, or scattering it around in the writing so that it’s clear that you’re talking about averages and such. With regards to the bell curve, I was talking about the normal distribution and how there are always extremes on the each end, but the majority (or average, if you will), are clustered in the middle.

I do believe that OP wrote something dumb and I just replied common sense to her, but I tried to show empathy and derailed on what I felt was a more interesting subject.

But she didn’t write anything dumb! She was venting and sharing a negative experience. Perhaps your derailment would have been much better suited in a new thread. But then, of course, we may not have had this conversation. (Which I’m hoping that we both can learn from )

Also because that's nice to see women speaking up, I myself only met one in years playing aoe ("do you wanna play with a girl?").

Lol! I’ve seen that person before. Is she really a she? Seems a bit bizarre, but to each their own.

However anyone who’s been online more than a few months know that gender is an excuse for flaming. Boys do tend to flame and fight, it translates into another form of fighting when they grow up, that’s the way they are. Therefore a complaint about retard in the chat being less retard would have been more accurate than making it a gender issue. At least that's how I see it.

Hmm, but the individual wasn’t being rude just because. He was being an ass because she’s a woman. I wasn’t there, but this is what’s being told and confirmed. I mean, saying that someone is only playing with another person because they’re a female is a pretty big indication. Not all boys flame and fight. I believe that insecurity plays quite a large role here.

Everyone does objectify so we disagree here, but I’m not interested in arguing about that.

No? If you change your mind, please tell me how you define objectification.

I’d just think you’re screwed since surgery won’t make you cuter, c.f. how it went for megan fox.

I don’t understand the reference...don’t really follow celebrities. I’m assuming she was attractive, got plastic surgery and became unattractive to you…?

I agree with all the rest of your message

Well, I’m certainly glad we found some common ground here.

Generally speaking, I do believe men care more about women’s physique than the opposite when considering a meaningful relationship.

Really? I mean, I’m not a man so obviously I can’t go with firsthand knowledge here, but I would think that if someone was looking for a meaningful relationship, attractiveness wouldn’t be their top priority. Looks fade with time, who someone is is far more important. Many men, even here on this forum, appear to agree with this.

I don’t think he said that the only difference between women is their appearance. From what I remember he said that he considered physique to be very important in a woman, that they gossip more and are less interested in sciences than men. Could you quote where he said that appearance is the only difference between women and that it’s how they should be valued and judged?

Sure thing, but they’re a bit lengthy so I’m using links instead:
viewtopic.php?f=181&t=9183&start=100#p198482
viewtopic.php?f=181&t=9183&start=150#p198634
viewtopic.php?f=181&t=9183&start=175#p198761
I mean, yeah, he didn’t use those exact words, hence why I didn’t use quotation marks. Those were my words paraphrasing what I read from those posts. I also completely disagree with his characterizations of women and don’t identify with them at all.

Most male teenagers are sexually frustrated. It has nothing to do with luck, more with the fact that when a guy is 15 he feels like having sex with everything that moves and looks like a female, mostly due to testosterone levels I believe, which differ among every male.

I have certainly heard this, but alas, I have never been a male teen so I have no experience to draw from in this regard. I do know that science back this up as well. However, it does somewhat have to do with luck considering the entire social clusterfuck that is being a teenager. (If you're a teenager reading this, just know that life gets much better.)

I actually had to google what red pill/pua means, however I’ve noticed this “game” irl as I previously mentioned.

Did you really? That’s crazy to me, it’s been around for quite some time. This “game” only works on women who want to be seduced and/or want to have sex. Additionally, it’s incredibly fucked up to attempt to seduce someone simply for the gain of sex. I mean, it’s a pretty serious con - fucking with someone’s emotions for a quick lay.

About the trophy or piece of shit, I believe you’re talking about a small minority of guys. I could probably find at least as much women forums trash talking about men and the patriarchy. Not sure though, the only time I opened reddit was to get the alphabay market link.

Well sure, I believe I specifically said some. However, I don't think it's a small minority, just a minority. And yes, there are feminist extremists out there, but I don't think that they are in any way equal in number. I used to be one until ironically I took a feminist theory class many years ago and recognized a deep flaw in myself. I've called them out several times. I prefer the term “egalitarian” for myself simply because “feminist” can be defined and interpreted in many different ways.

About these guys, I believe they literally apply what I talked about, putting reason before passion. I'd guess they don't only consider physique but something similar than what I talked about, but again never read the theory behind it. I only opened a wikipedia page with the words they use and found it amusing.

Oh dear, I sincerely hope that I haven’t created a monster. No, they aren’t using reason before passion. They’re using their drive for sex to lie and attempt to coerce women into fucking them.

Yea, you’ve reacted based on feelings and personal experience. However, if you try to get an objective understanding of the situation, you might realize that women don’t have more problem than guys online. They probably do feel more often threatened, because more sensitive. At least that's how I see it, I might be completely wrong and any male online is an avid reader of the red pill/pua stuff you mentioned. Reality probably lies between what you and I believe to be true.

Hmm, I think I understand where you are coming from with this. You believe that men are equally affected by online issues as women? This may be true, I’m not a man so I can’t 100% understand the issues that men face online. But do men frequently get questioned and criticized about being a man online, particularly in gaming communities? This is the difference, women get hit with all the stuff that men get hit with, plus we get hit with our “femaleness”. I’m actually super fucking sensitive, but don’t often feel threatened online, which makes me think that there are some very serious issues that we women face, but it stems from a minority, but most vocal individuals. I’m not diminishing the negative experiences that other women have, I’m simply expressing my opinion on my experience. Does this make sense?

I never implied that every male online is an avid reader of those sites. That would be a ridiculous thing for me to say since I don't think that all.

If you are from the US, I will ask you a similar question that I asked to Umeu about his sister suffering from racism in the US: could you develop on how being a women negatively impacted your life so far?

I most certainly could develop on this, but honestly, it’s all way too personal to share here. I can think about it longer and see if there’s anything I could share that wouldn’t be too personal. If I think of anything, I’ll share.

I wasn’t being sarcastic. When I am, I try to make it obvious/funny. I don’t like passive aggressive comments. More listening less talking sounds like a good concept though.

I have found it to be an excellent way of living life. If everyone is talking, no one is listening.

[deleted_user0]

Wtf is the red pill? Its an actual pill?

Ah. Weird stuff. But why is that bad while something like the secret is ok?