Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
- Mr_Bramboy
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Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
https://youtu.be/sAiAyX9I6Bg
Discuss! Racism or not?! I am trying to reach 4000 posts! How many posts can we get redacted?!
Zwarte piet is NOT racism because it is tradition (Rutte said this, always trust rutte)
Discuss! Racism or not?! I am trying to reach 4000 posts! How many posts can we get redacted?!
Zwarte piet is NOT racism because it is tradition (Rutte said this, always trust rutte)
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Not racist. Could be seen as slightly hurtful to those that want to be hurt or sth.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Not racist.
Btw, might be useful to read the history about it before posting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
Btw, might be useful to read the history about it before posting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
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- Mr_Bramboy
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
If we replace the black pete with the white pete, then this would still be racism because sinterklaas is using white people as slaves.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Jim do you vote for the pvv?
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
I think santa will bring Dr. D1ck a selfie stick for the Christmas. Should I be concerned?
[spoiler=spoiler]ye its not racist [/spoiler]
[spoiler=spoiler]ye its not racist [/spoiler]
- Mr_Bramboy
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
I want blackface this sinterklaas
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Honestly, I totally understand people from other countries think that Zwarte Piet is racist, but I grew up thinking that Zwarte Piet is a nice guy and I never thought about it in a bad racist way as a young kid. Basically, this applies for 90% of the Dutch population.
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
I don't get how its racist. Explain to me how you concluded that? It seems to have almost zero correlation with the definition of racism.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Jerom wrote:I don't get how its racist. Explain to me how you concluded that? It seems to have almost zero correlation with the definition of racism.
Of course, we know better and we know it's a good tradition. Of course, it's weird for outsiders to see a white man with a bunch of black people working for him. Once outsiders go read the tradition in depth (so read the history, the view as Dutch kid and the fact that we see 'black' as soot on the face) they will know better and probably reconsider their position.
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- Jaeger
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
I just find it funny that Sinterklaas is from Spain for some reason.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
why no poll?
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Jerom wrote:I don't get how its racist. Explain to me how you concluded that? It seems to have almost zero correlation with the definition of racism.
MCJim wrote:Honestly, I totally understand people from other countries think that Zwarte Piet is racist, but I grew up thinking that Zwarte Piet is a nice guy and I never thought about it in a bad racist way as a young kid. Basically, this applies for 90% of the Dutch population.
I'm sorry I can't read the report as it's dutch but: "In Amsterdam, the nation's capital, most opposition towards the character is found among the Ghanaian, Antillean and Dutch-Surinamese communities, with 50% of the Surinamese considering the figure to be discriminatory to others, whereas 27% consider the figure to be discriminatory towards themselves."
Also the fact that 90% of the population thinks it's not racist doesn't really prove much because it's more difficult to see it if it's not directed towards yourself.
The next thing is that if you're RAISED with this, you don't have much of a say because you're seeing it as a positive tradition (I'm sure it is for most people). The problem comes when people from the outside and people who haven't been raised with it sees it and it looks horrible to them. Then it will not matter if all the participants don't consider it racist. I couldn't argue to remove the tradition but out of respect I wouldn't participate either.
Also: That is one weird tradition! wtf
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Jim is not answering my question at all though. I am wondering how it could at all be racist. I dont think people understand what racism means when they call this racist.
Its a play. White man has black employees. It refers to the slave era yes. It makes sinterklaas seem like a good person who freed these black people and turned them into normal human beings. Its a vague reference about something that happened in the past. With only large amounts of creativity could this be turned into something racist towards black people. I can make up reasons why its racist towards white people too by the way, which in my eyes require much less imigination.
There is nothing in this tradition that would be racist by the definition of racism. None of the intentions of underlying thoughts are racist, and there is no real racist symbolism. The most racist thing is that black pete could be seen as a stereotype appereance for a black person, but I dont see how its that hurtful and that still isnt racist according to the definition of racism.
The fuss about it is black people trying to fight actual racism through symbols. Its kinda having a negative effect.
Its a play. White man has black employees. It refers to the slave era yes. It makes sinterklaas seem like a good person who freed these black people and turned them into normal human beings. Its a vague reference about something that happened in the past. With only large amounts of creativity could this be turned into something racist towards black people. I can make up reasons why its racist towards white people too by the way, which in my eyes require much less imigination.
There is nothing in this tradition that would be racist by the definition of racism. None of the intentions of underlying thoughts are racist, and there is no real racist symbolism. The most racist thing is that black pete could be seen as a stereotype appereance for a black person, but I dont see how its that hurtful and that still isnt racist according to the definition of racism.
The fuss about it is black people trying to fight actual racism through symbols. Its kinda having a negative effect.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Jerom wrote:Jim is not answering my question at all though. I am wondering how it could at all be racist. I dont think people understand what racism means when they call this racist.
Its a play. White man has black employees. It refers to the slave era yes. It makes sinterklaas seem like a good person who freed these black people and turned them into normal human beings. Its a vague reference about something that happened in the past. With only large amounts of creativity could this be turned into something racist towards black people. I can make up reasons why its racist towards white people too by the way, which in my eyes require much less imigination.
There is nothing in this tradition that would be racist by the definition of racism. None of the intentions of underlying thoughts are racist, and there is no real racist symbolism. The most racist thing is that black pete could be seen as a stereotype appereance for a black person, but I dont see how its that hurtful and that still isnt racist according to the definition of racism.
The fuss about it is black people trying to fight actual racism through symbols. Its kinda having a negative effect.
I did answer your question and lets take a new example.
Theres nothing about the nword that is racist by definition but people get offended because it refers to the slave era, so im not gonna use it because i dont need to. I could argue that its not racist but why bother? Just be polite and accept the feelings of others. A deeply rooted tradition is different yes, but you cant claim that people shouldnt be offended, that is not up to you really. You dont get to decide what people should feel.
Its still not about what it represents. Its what it looks like to people who dont know what it represents really. You have to exclude the history and meaning of it and look at the fact that people in the country think youre mocking them.
Yeah You can make up reasons all you want why its racist to white people but we both know thats not how it works. If one person is hurt by something you say, are you going to explain to him how it could be hurtful for yourself, not him, even if youre not hurt at all? Theres no point in that.
Im not saying the meaning of this is racist or that it should stop. im just saying if people are getting hurt, maybe you should be careful and since i dont need this tradition i wouldnt take part in it.
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- Ninja
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
The otward appearance is definitely a racist stereotype, but that doesn't mean it's with racist or malicious motives. It doesn't also necessarily make anyone who enjoys the tradition and even current depiction a person with racist convictions, although many responses do show xenophobic tendencies, and even blatant racism. Thing is, people hear racism and they always think its malicious intent, while most likely its not. As with most human problems, the root isnt evil, but ignorance or fear.
If you like this tradition how it currently is, doesn't prove you're a racist. However, this discussion does expose many prejudices and bigotry which lay dormant or hidden before. Truly this discussion isn't about whether or not this is a harmless kids party or wether it's a racist conspiracy, it's about how much are you willing to sacrifice for your fellow citizen's public comfort. And this is where the racism truly comes to play a part, as many defenders of ZP do not consider anyone with a color who complains about the SK tradition a fellow citizen. They somehow believe they have more right to this democracy, even though that's exactly NOT how democracy works.
What you do in your own home is your own problem, not considering acts which influence (read: harm) other individuals. So if you want to continue that tradition there, youre welcome to it. What happens in the public realm (read: the streets) is not just your concern, it's the concern of every citizen of this country. And some citizens are claiming that this tradition makes it hard for them to enjoy the public space during the time in which this tradition is being celebrated, which in these days is about from august till december XD, and therefor we should consider changing the tradition in a way which doesn't make it awkward or insulting to them. Aparantly this is too much for many people, who claim to be defending the interest of children, even though most children wouldn't give a rats ass about the color. However, to say there isn't a correlation between ZP and black people is disproven by these same children as well, as they sometimes have to be taught not to call black people ZP in public, though they either don't always obey their parents or they aren't always taught this, as it sometimes does happen. And they do tease darker children with saying they are ZP as well. Obviously, these are incidental examples, so no direct conclusion can be drawn from them, and im not saying it makes these children racist. Fact is too that 150-200 years ago they referred to him as a negro when describing him, as the wikipedia says.
But you can take part and sustain a racist narrative or structure without believing it yourself, pretty much the same way people aided the nazis, even jews, without knowing that they did, or even when they knew, without thinking they did anything wrong. Claims about this tradition not being racist ofcourse become problematic when it becomes clear that SK can't be any other color than white, and ZP can ofcourse, as his name implies, only be black. If it was strictly a business relation, aka SK being the employer of ZP, then SK could obviously be anyone (but if you insist he's truly the reincarnation of the saint of myra, then he should probably have more of a tan, too considering he lives in spain), and he could hire anyone, including white, purple or rainbow coloured employees. So it's not so strange then that some people view the necessity of this black and white relation with some suspicion and think of it as yet another (historic) manifestation of white superiority over people of color.
If you like this tradition how it currently is, doesn't prove you're a racist. However, this discussion does expose many prejudices and bigotry which lay dormant or hidden before. Truly this discussion isn't about whether or not this is a harmless kids party or wether it's a racist conspiracy, it's about how much are you willing to sacrifice for your fellow citizen's public comfort. And this is where the racism truly comes to play a part, as many defenders of ZP do not consider anyone with a color who complains about the SK tradition a fellow citizen. They somehow believe they have more right to this democracy, even though that's exactly NOT how democracy works.
What you do in your own home is your own problem, not considering acts which influence (read: harm) other individuals. So if you want to continue that tradition there, youre welcome to it. What happens in the public realm (read: the streets) is not just your concern, it's the concern of every citizen of this country. And some citizens are claiming that this tradition makes it hard for them to enjoy the public space during the time in which this tradition is being celebrated, which in these days is about from august till december XD, and therefor we should consider changing the tradition in a way which doesn't make it awkward or insulting to them. Aparantly this is too much for many people, who claim to be defending the interest of children, even though most children wouldn't give a rats ass about the color. However, to say there isn't a correlation between ZP and black people is disproven by these same children as well, as they sometimes have to be taught not to call black people ZP in public, though they either don't always obey their parents or they aren't always taught this, as it sometimes does happen. And they do tease darker children with saying they are ZP as well. Obviously, these are incidental examples, so no direct conclusion can be drawn from them, and im not saying it makes these children racist. Fact is too that 150-200 years ago they referred to him as a negro when describing him, as the wikipedia says.
But you can take part and sustain a racist narrative or structure without believing it yourself, pretty much the same way people aided the nazis, even jews, without knowing that they did, or even when they knew, without thinking they did anything wrong. Claims about this tradition not being racist ofcourse become problematic when it becomes clear that SK can't be any other color than white, and ZP can ofcourse, as his name implies, only be black. If it was strictly a business relation, aka SK being the employer of ZP, then SK could obviously be anyone (but if you insist he's truly the reincarnation of the saint of myra, then he should probably have more of a tan, too considering he lives in spain), and he could hire anyone, including white, purple or rainbow coloured employees. So it's not so strange then that some people view the necessity of this black and white relation with some suspicion and think of it as yet another (historic) manifestation of white superiority over people of color.
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- Ninja
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Jerom wrote: I can make up reasons why its racist towards white people too by the way, which in my eyes require much less imigination.
Tell us what reasons?
The fuss about it is black people trying to fight actual racism through symbols. Its kinda having a negative effect.
Maybe, but the chord they struck shows alot of racist melody coming out of the mouths of people who then claim they aren't racist. I mean, even Wilders dares to say that he's not a racist... People often just have no idea what theyre talking about...
- milku3459
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Most of the people who said this guy was not racist are dutch
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
umeu wrote:Jerom wrote: I can make up reasons why its racist towards white people too by the way, which in my eyes require much less imigination.
Tell us what reasons?The fuss about it is black people trying to fight actual racism through symbols. Its kinda having a negative effect.
Maybe, but the chord they struck shows alot of racist melody coming out of the mouths of people who then claim they aren't racist. I mean, even Wilders dares to say that he's not a racist... People often just have no idea what theyre talking about...
Id be more offended by a reference towards white people as slave holders (which is absolutely disgusting and clearly implies an inferiority of the white race by social standards today) than by a reference of black people as slaves.
I agree that the people that passionately defend it are often just racist braindead people. I dont really care, apperantly its hurtful towards some people so whatever. I just think it doesnt fit the definition of racism very well.
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- Ninja
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Lol... nice try, but that really takes way more imagination. And it also shows a complete lack of understanding of racism and the debate about it.
How would you define racism then?
How would you define racism then?
- Mr_Bramboy
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
umeu wrote:How would you define racism then?
Witte Pieten. Sinterklaas using witte pieten is discriminating against all hard working white people.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
umeu wrote:How would you define racism then?
Oh, how many years I have waited for someone to ask this question. It finally happened.
Pay more attention to detail.
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- Ninja
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Oh ive asked it many times, you could read the un declaration for a general answer. Anyway, want to answer my question?
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- Ninja
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Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
Mr_Bramboy wrote:umeu wrote:How would you define racism then?
Witte Pieten. Sinterklaas using witte pieten is discriminating against all hard working white people.
So WP would be racist but ZP wouldnt be? Im glad to see youre making a serious attempt here.., oh wait.
Re: Zwarte Piet Discussion Thread
I haven't read this thread at all so I would have to invest a lot if I want to join the discussion. We'll see if I do that.
Pay more attention to detail.
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