FightinFrenchman Apology

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FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

I’m sorry,
As most of you all have know, I was banned from the forums for some time after referring to @Jerom as the founder of ISIS, and I’m sorry for that, before all of you scroll down and begin your ranting, all I ask is for you to hear me out, as I want to share my thoughts and emotions that have resulted because of this.

I never meant to cast any suspicions of terrorism onto any forum members, as my post was meant simply as a joke. I was referring to a speech then-candidate Donald Trump had made regarding President Barack Obama, in which he called the President the "founder of ISIS." He later said that he was being sarcastic, but not that sarcastic. I thought this ridiculous statement was funny so I was repeating it with a member of the ESOC staff who I had had disagreements with in the past. I of course never meant it seriously, but that doesn't excuse me for saying it.

Once again I’m deeply sorry for what I’ve done and I hope at least some of you can forgive me for this. Of course there will still be people out there that will look at this message and just ignore it, but I urge you, if your not going to say anything positively, please, leave it for another time or pm me. Until next time,
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by momuuu »

ok.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by pecelot »

:ear:
#draintheear
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by sdsanft »

The Ear wrote:hear me out

:hehe:
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by Mimsy for President »

You are a kind-hearted person @fightinfrenchman . I hope with all my heart that you'll reach your ultimate goal in life as a moderator.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by site »

#forgiveness
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by fightinfrenchman »

site wrote:#forgiveness


Ye that's the goal.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by momuuu »

An apology is sincere when it's not a public thread. If you pm'd me it'd have been worth something, this is attentionwhoring.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jerom wrote:An apology is sincere when it's not a public thread. If you pm'd me it'd have been worth something, this is attentionwhoring.


I think a public apology is better because everybody can see it, and plenty of people are aware of the feud we have had. I made a gesture to show I was sorry, that's all I can really do.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by momuuu »

And I responded with ok. Whatever describes my emotions too. Useless thread, sad that I spent time on it.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by gustavusadolphus »

Jerom wrote:And I responded with ok. Whatever describes my emotions too. Useless thread, sad that I spent time on it.


I know I'm sad. :sad:
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by milku3459 »

Well French, you tried. If Jerom doesn't accept that then the ball is in his court. Glad to see you making an effort to clear the air
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by deleted_user »

My biggest issue is that your avatar has appeared in several bad dreams of mine. It's very disconcerting. Could you please consider adding a hat to it?
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by Laurence Drake »

#draintheswamp
Top quality poster.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

deleted_user wrote:My biggest issue is that your avatar has appeared in several bad dreams of mine. It's very disconcerting. Could you please consider adding a hat to it?


Shoon, although to be fair your avatar is scary ash well
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by fightinfrenchman »

milku3459 wrote:Well French, you tried. If Jerom doesn't accept that then the ball is in his court. Glad to see you making an effort to clear the air


Thank you sir.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by sdsanft »

Yeah well said. I hope you continue to bridge the gap between the two of you. I'm not gonna lie watching the flame wars especially between the basement crew and the mods has been the worst part about my experience here on ESO, but it's clear both parties want to improve the community and the first step is to build a good relationship.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by dietschlander »

wait, Jerom is not the founder of ISIS? :hmm:
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by Vinyanyérë »

This is a good effort but I feel that I need to point out some of the reservations that I have with this apology.

I am not Jerom, I don't know Jerom's feelings on the subject, I did not register for the forums until after your first permanent ban, but I am pretty sure that Jerom wasn't looking for an apology for your "founder of ISIS" thread. Likely for him and other members of the ESOC team that was the culmination of many other things that you did. It's the same idea as when your spouse explodes at you for getting mud on the floor: getting mud on the floor is a problem, but it's certainly not the problem. If another member without a moderation history made a "Jerom is the founder of ISIS" thread I'm guessing that it would warrant only a week-long ban or even only a warning. In short, to Jerom, you're apologizing for the wrong thing.

So what would Jerom want you to apologize for? I can't predict this totally, but I think we can safely point to sets of events that happened before your first banning and after your unbanning. The ones that happened after your unbanning less controversial to me so I'll go over them first. He's been the subject of a lot of attacks from you and other members of the basement lately, with a lot of "founder of ISIS", "crooked Jerom", "death wish etc." being directed at him. Sometimes he's been the one that's provoked that: he'll make a slight against you or someone in the basement and you'll respond in turn. But other times it's come without any definitive provocation. To an extent, it doesn't matter whether it was provoked or not.

Regarding pre-banning, Jerom and you unfortunately have a difference in opinion in moderation standards for a forum. I believe Jerom prefers the forum to be run more like TeamLiquid or /r/AskHistorians: a fairly high bar for what is considered an acceptable post or thread. You disagree with that, and I don't personally think that either viewpoint is inherently correct or incorrect. This mismatch of standards, together with ESOC's fairly vague rules about acceptable posts, led to a lot of friction between the two of you. You made posts which were in line with your interpretation of the rules, and Jerom made moderation decisions which were in line with his.

The main issue is that situation did not get resolved early, and instead escalated substantially. You or someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong about this as I wasn't around when this was happening but I believe that the two of your continued to act according to your own interpretations of the rules. To Jerom then, you continued to make low-quality posts despite being told to stop, and thus repeatedly agitated him.

What Jerom wants you to apologize for is not for calling him the founder of ISIS, but rather for continued antagonism towards him both before your banning and after your unbanning. Does that antagonism actually exist? It doesn't particularly matter. The interesting thing with conflicts is that perception partially supplants reality: sometimes you have to apologize for something that was interpreted as inflammatory even if it was not intended that way. As long as we can apply the reasonable person standard to Jerom's feelings (and I think we can), his offense is justified.

My other reservation with your apology is that it is partially incomplete. A good apology takes the form "I'm sorry for X, and in the future I will do Y", with the Y here intended to be something that will keep you from doing X again. As mentioned, I don't think Jerom's too happy with what you selected X to be. You also didn't provide a Y, which means that I'm not convinced that similar situations will not crop back up.

I'm not sure if Jerom believes your apology here was sincere or not. I think it was, though as I've explained here I think it's incomplete. As such, I understand why Jerom would be hesitant to accept this apology and why this will not provide sufficient resolution.

Understand that I don't consider Jerom to be innocent here either. However, I prefer to write only one donezo manifesto per day, so we'll have to wait till tomorrow.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by fightinfrenchman »

If somebody dislikes my posting style so much that they are willing to tell me I should stop breathing, the problem is not with me. I acknowledged when I went too far and apologized for it. People reacting with such vitriol to things that are even aimed at them is not my fault or my problem.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by pecelot »

For the future: please do not quote entire blocks of texts from posts you reply to directly after. If you want to still notify a user, use @nickname .
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by milku3459 »

What I imagine Jerom's and Frenchman's long-overdue reconciliation to be like:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee925OTFBCA[/video]
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by momuuu »

This apology is just because ear wanted me to be the troll. Like I said, a real apology isnt a publicity stunt. Theres not even a conflict. Ear is a troll to me and he knows im right. Theres only an apperant conflict hes trying to create to continue the trolling.

You may think im wrong. I did spend a lot of time trying to understand if he is just retarded or a pure troll. The latter is true. There have only been a handful of genuine posts, usually with regards to clinton and the election. Otherwise its just been attempts to troll, like repeatedly tagging people in the discord to the point where the discord almost died.

Id 'forgive' him - that is that id maybe in the long run be able to gain maybe even a glimmer of respect for him - if he actually started making genuine posts. Right now a larger percentage of his posts is about something I didnt even say to him, and any conversation I engage with him has numerous references to that without any content. Its indicative of his intentions and moderation in the past has shown complete unwillingness to change. This apology is just another part of his trolling, I am much surprised that it seems genuine to anyone. Why would I fucking care if some dipshit on the other side of the planet that spends numerous hours trolling the forum of a dead game calls me the founder of isis lol.
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

Post by Kaiserklein »

If he wants to apologize directly to you, then yeah PM could be more appropriate. But he wants to apologize to the ESOC moderators, which I guess he should (I'm not judging but I think ESOC would appreciate it if he did), an open thread is nice
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Re: FightinFrenchman Apology

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jerom wrote:This apology is just because ear wanted me to be the troll. Like I said, a real apology isnt a publicity stunt. Theres not even a conflict. Ear is a troll to me and he knows im right. Theres only an apperant conflict hes trying to create to continue the trolling.

You may think im wrong. I did spend a lot of time trying to understand if he is just retarded or a pure troll. The latter is true. There have only been a handful of genuine posts, usually with regards to clinton and the election. Otherwise its just been attempts to troll, like repeatedly tagging people in the discord to the point where the discord almost died.

Id 'forgive' him - that is that id maybe in the long run be able to gain maybe even a glimmer of respect for him - if he actually started making genuine posts. Right now a larger percentage of his posts is about something I didnt even say to him, and any conversation I engage with him has numerous references to that without any content. Its indicative of his intentions and moderation in the past has shown complete unwillingness to change. This apology is just another part of his trolling, I am much surprised that it seems genuine to anyone. Why would I fucking care if some dipshit on the other side of the planet that spends numerous hours trolling the forum of a dead game calls me the founder of isis lol.


I'm not a troll, I would obviously not agree with that. You may not like me but I have contributed to this community plenty of times, are you really going to refer to all of that as trolling?

In my opinion a public apology is more meaningful than a private one, I understand if you disagree. But if you choose not to forgive me because you think I'm not being genuine, that is your choice. I will continue doing things for the community that I enjoy, and it seems many others enjoy them as well.
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