the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

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the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by spanky4ever »

As most of you know, I was a fan of Bernie Sanders! and some of you also know that most economics where supporting his politics. Well, the same problem exist! we cannon sustain an economic in western countries where all the wealth is gong to the top 10th of a present! Cos they cannot spent all that wealth - they will stash it in some tax havens - where it does not good to anyone!
here is a review of a new statistic: Btw - when those poor countries ( China, Taiwan, Bangla Desh, etc. etc ) cannot sell to US or Europe - cos we dont have wealt to buy it - they will also suffer!) If you think this is a left wing scare mongering - THINK again!
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by pecelot »

I was always wondering, where would he take all the cash from that he promises to give out freely? :hmm:
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by milku3459 »

Tax havens like my country heheheh
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Laurence Drake »

The US economy will grow at record pace now that God-emperor trump is at the helm.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Goodspeed »

pecelot wrote:I was always wondering, where would he take all the cash from that he promises to give out freely? :hmm:
Tax, meaning on the one hand tax the (very) rich more and on the other fixing some of the loopholes that allow widespread tax evasion by corporations which ironically they keep in place by paying the government, or rather its leaders individually.
Sanders' plans were always relatively detailed iirc so if you really are/were curious you could('ve) just look(ed) it up.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Laurence Drake »

Goodspeed wrote:
pecelot wrote:I was always wondering, where would he take all the cash from that he promises to give out freely? :hmm:
Tax, meaning on the one hand tax the (very) rich more and on the other fixing some of the loopholes that allow widespread tax evasion by corporations which ironically they keep in place by paying the government, or rather its leaders individually.
Sanders' plans were always relatively detailed iirc so if you really are/were curious you could('ve) just look(ed) it up.

france already tried to tax the rich
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

taxing and redstribution will not work, the entire banking industry has to be overhauled and fundamentally reformed.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Goodspeed »

Yes, but you can't do that overnight so it's not where you would get the money to "give out freely" as pecelot so ignorantly put it. Question was about short term measures.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

i really think universal income will be the future. instead of all money coming into existence through bank loans, it should be cycled through to the people. that will create a stable consumer base where money can flow to those that provide goods and services and a healthy cushion so people can go about and create the goods and services they want to survive. It would be a representation of the GDP of the economy created.

It could be cycled gradually by having all income tax collected that normally goes to paying the interest on fraudulent federal reserve loans to funnel directly back into the economy.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by pecelot »

Why would you tax the richest in the first place? And isn't it basically giving out the money freely, like I put it?
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Snuden »

I think socialism is dead...

Good 'ol Bernie wanted to adopt (to an extent) the Danish way of doing things. Being from Denmark, I can tell you that things are not all that great anymore - hence I left many years ago.

The cash that Bernie wanted to "give out" was too tax the people with very high income more than the people with less income. That will most likely result in high earners hiding their money and Tortola and similar places, which will bring no benefit to the local economy.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

I think the way of dispersing money directly to the people is the only fair and moral way to do it. If it looks like socialism so be it but its really not. Any any form of govt is on a sliding scale from socialism to anarchy. What we have right now with capitalism is sort of a controlled anarchy that allows banks to exploit people through debt because all money created into existence is through debt. Since that is the case as people build up wealth there is no currency in the market to satisfy the debt (there never can be even if all money was spent) thus creating a unsustainable system. We are a peoples govt and democracy the govt and its money belong to the people.

money itself is just a representation of goods and services to exchange rather than using the barter system. So why should people have to borrow money and be in debt to pay off for what they then work for again. Its exploitation in the worst. I have been working with a financial system that takes care of all, has NO Taxes what so ever and builds wealth and encourages growth.

the problem with socialism and communism had was that it had to compete in a world of capitalism. where the fraudulent centralized banking system just has too much power to manipulate markets and destroy countries.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by spanky4ever »

Snuden wrote:I think socialism is dead...

Good 'ol Bernie wanted to adopt (to an extent) the Danish way of doing things. Being from Denmark, I can tell you that things are not all that great anymore - hence I left many years ago.

The cash that Bernie wanted to "give out" was too tax the people with very high income more than the people with less income. That will most likely result in high earners hiding their money and Tortola and similar places, which will bring no benefit to the local economy.


Who can say that some ppl have the right to million times more wealth than others! Where is that written in stone? Why should ppl get to inherent billions of dollars without lifting a finger to earn it?, while others starve?
All that wealth is accumulated by the good work of others! and its only fair that all should have a share in the common benefits this earth can provide us with!
Well, thats my opinion, anyway!

Just cos I am a curious person, you being from Denmark you say; what is "not so good" in Denmark, that makes you say you are glad to leave? I always thought Danes where the most happy ppl on earth (at least statistics have found this - for many years in a row) :!: ^_^
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Snuden »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Snuden wrote:I think socialism is dead...

Good 'ol Bernie wanted to adopt (to an extent) the Danish way of doing things. Being from Denmark, I can tell you that things are not all that great anymore - hence I left many years ago.

The cash that Bernie wanted to "give out" was too tax the people with very high income more than the people with less income. That will most likely result in high earners hiding their money and Tortola and similar places, which will bring no benefit to the local economy.


Who can say that some ppl have the right to million times more wealth than others! Where is that written in stone? Why should ppl get to inherent billions of dollars without lifting a finger to earn it?, while others starve?
All that wealth is accumulated by the good work of others! and its only fair that all should have a share in the common benefits this earth can provide us with!
Well, thats my opinion, anyway!

Just cos I am a curious person, you being from Denmark you say; what is "not so good" in Denmark, that makes you say you are glad to leave? I always thought Danes where the most happy ppl on earth (at least statistics have found this - for many years in a row) :!: ^_^


Danes are generally happy and its not a bad place to live - not at all. Its just not as good as it used to be :)

Things like healthcare, the education system, etc... have gone downhill for 15-20 years now, taxes however, continue to go up. This forum is not the right place to discus why it is like that.

Nobody have the right to wealth, but some just works very hard (and smart) to gain financial wealth. Do you think they should share their wealth with people who do not work hard, or maybe don't work at all?

You come off as a socialist and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I just don't share your point of view :smile:

and its only fair that all should have a share in the common benefits this earth can provide us with!

Entitlement (and I mean no offense by this) but I CANNOT stand entitlement! "I have the right to a good life!"

I suspect that I am quite older than you, and thereby have more life experience, but I can guarantee you one thing... there is NO free lunch! If there were, we would all be ganja smoking hippies doing nothing but getting high all day long. How do you think such a world would look like?

Yea... I might be a little conservative :unsure:

Your flag shows "Norway" if you are from there, I guess you are brought up with the same values as I am, so I get what you mean.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by spanky4ever »

@Snuden Yes Im from Norway, and I am very happy living here, and count my blessings not to be born in some poor country!
Nobody have the right to wealth, but some just works very hard (and smart) to gain financial wealth. Do you think they should share their wealth with people who do not work hard, or maybe don't work at all?


Ppl who work hard, should get a living wage. PPl who are "smart" to often get rich on the labor of others" After all, the REAL economy are made by working ppls effort! and not moving money around and speculating!
How about those ppl who got there fortune by heritage, and never work a day in their life and have more money then they could ever spend? And compare it to ppl who work 3 jobs, and struggle to put food on the table, or the many ppl who are starving - not cos they dont want to work, but there are not jobs! Or their jobs got outsourced to a country where the owners could squeeze even more money from the labor of others :shock: I know this has happened in Denmark over the last decades, particularly in north Jylland where almost all good paying factory jobs are gone!
About you being more "mature" and vices cos you lived longer? Not a valid argument, and probably not true in any sense :shock:
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Snuden »

Yes, many labor demanding jobs have moved, first to eastern Europe and in recent years to China and SEA.

I have just a few months ago completed a six year contract in Shanghai, China, where my job was to squeeze a lot of work out of relative low paying labor.

While I enjoyed an air-conditioned office and making a healthy pay, my workers worked 14 hour days on construction sites. Should I feel guilty?
Of course not! Just as I don't feel guilty about being white. Heck, I don't even feel guilty when I throw out half a dish of food.

What about those who inherit money? Should they give it away? Should they feel ashamed of being rich, without ever have had to work?

I have worked in places like Angola, Sudan, Burkina Faso and Senegal and seen people dying of hunger, while it of course affects me I don't see it as my problem as such. With that I mean there is nothing that I can do about it on a personal level.

I never said I was more mature than you, just older :)
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by martinspjuth »

Snuden wrote:Nobody have the right to wealth, but some just works very hard (and smart) to gain financial wealth. Do you think they should share their wealth with people who do not work hard, or maybe don't work at all?

To measure how hard someone is working by how much they earn is quite stupid imo. For example a carpenter can work way harder than some people who just sit behind a desk and move investments around. The carpenter can even be way more skilled at what he does, but today's economy system values some skills higher than others. Imo knowing how to practically build houses, or how to properly repair cars etc, can take just as much skill as being CEO. It is just a different set of skills. I also think those who was lucky enough to be born with talent to earn loads of money (ye they worked hard for it too) can pay a little extra in taxes to help those who work hard but in a field that isn't rewarded as much by todays economy system.

Snuden wrote:Entitlement (and I mean no offense by this) but I CANNOT stand entitlement! "I have the right to a good life!"

I agree on this one. Way to many people feel entitlement to all kinds of things. If you want something you have to work for it, you have to earn it. But every person should get the same chance. This is where taxes come in. Taxes can support free education, which basically is a must if you want to succeed in anything economy related today. Taxes can also suport free healthcare which imo everyone should have acces too (ofc still regulated). These things cost lots of money and needs to be financed by taxes, and why not let the rich lucky people pay a few precent extra in cash? Everyone benefits from a healthier and higher educated population. I also feel like i have to point out that the extra precentage does ofc only effect the amount you earn above what is set as the "rich line". If for example you earn 60 000 a month and it is set that everyone who earns more than 50 000 should pay extra taxes, then you will only pay extra taxes for the 10 000 that exceeds the 50 000 line. Also, yes, most rich people are "lucky". If they had been in a car accident for example, and had to pay the hospital bills with money that was intended to pay for university studies, they might never have gotten rich. They might even be stuck with some "low quality" job. With good welfare (in this case free healthcare and free education), payed by taxes, he could still have gone to the university and still gotten rich. It is imo a much better way of taking care of a nation's (and the world's) work force and all different talents. Everyone have a better chance of getting where they will be of best use to the society while still being able to freely choose.

Snuden wrote:Yes, many labor demanding jobs have moved, first to eastern Europe and in recent years to China and SEA.

I have just a few months ago completed a six year contract in Shanghai, China, where my job was to squeeze a lot of work out of relative low paying labor.

While I enjoyed an air-conditioned office and making a healthy pay, my workers worked 14 hour days on construction sites. Should I feel guilty?
Of course not! Just as I don't feel guilty about being white. Heck, I don't even feel guilty when I throw out half a dish of food.

What about those who inherit money? Should they give it away? Should they feel ashamed of being rich, without ever have had to work?


The use of low wage workers are not optimal, but i'm not really sure what you or your company can really do about it. If you were to pay them as much as would be needed in Europe, some other company would just take your market shares since your products now are more expensive as a result of the need to cover for the higher wages. Imo it's probably better that those people have a bad job, than no job at all.

Those who inherit money should not give it away, they shouldn't feel ashamed that their parents (or some other person) worked hard to leave them a lot of money. They can however pay a little extra in taxes, just as those who earn a lot.

Snuden wrote:I have worked in places like Angola, Sudan, Burkina Faso and Senegal and seen people dying of hunger, while it of course affects me I don't see it as my problem as such. With that I mean there is nothing that I can do about it on a personal level.

You CAN do things on a personal level. You could give away some of your wage to pay for food to those you see starving. Sure there will always be more people that need your money/help to survive, and unless you're a saint there is some point where you will just say "fuck it, let em die, i need this money myself". You could also work harder in politics or in your company to try to get more people to support those in need. Now, i don't say this is what you have to do, neither does i say i am any better sitting here arguing behind a computer screen while people are starving and dying to very curable diseases on other places in the world. But saying that you can't do anything about it, that is ignorant.
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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by Snuden »

@martinspjuth

"Work hard" might not be the best wording, which is why I added "and smart" in brackets. By smart I mean to educate oneself. I started out as a boiler tube welder in my very early 20s. I quickly realized that that could only take me so far, not to mention the health issues with welding high chromium boiler tubes all day long - often in confined space. I decided to go abroad, work 80 hour weeks in order to save up for further education as welding engineer. In other words --> I took a proactive decision. As my income grew, I found myself taxed almost 70%!

SEVENTY PERCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seeing where my tax money went, I left Denmark. (gg no re)

I haven't really kept up to date about the situation in Denmark for a number of years now but I have seen a few headlines and articles about how it sometimes can net LESS to work, rather than be on government help. As a result some people simply do NOT want to work. How is that not fucked up?

Many Danes (I guess the same holds true for Swedes) REFUSE to take jobs, which is considered low on the social ladder, such as sweeping the streets.

No, everyone don't benefit from a higher educated population. There have to be somebody to do the dirty and hard manual work. They are cheap and easy to replace, when they are worn out. Not exactly my philosophy either, but that's how it is and probably always has been.

Of course I gave food, money and clothes to some of my workers in Africa and SEA out of my own pocket, what it did in reality was just to postpone what was bound to happen sooner or later. I sometimes wondered if I really did it for myself. What needs to be done is on government level, and not just a dude buying a few chickens at the market for the few weeks he is around.

I am not ashamed to say that I am probably more of a capitalist than I am a socialist. Although SJW's would like me to feel like a bad person.

Btw... Had I been US citizen I would probably have voted for Sanders :)

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Re: the downturn of US eco - and the rest of western eco 2

Post by martinspjuth »

Snuden wrote:@martinspjuth

"Work hard" might not be the best wording, which is why I added "and smart" in brackets. By smart I mean to educate oneself. I started out as a boiler tube welder in my very early 20s. I quickly realized that that could only take me so far, not to mention the health issues with welding high chromium boiler tubes all day long - often in confined space. I decided to go abroad, work 80 hour weeks in order to save up for further education as welding engineer. In other words --> I took a proactive decision. As my income grew, I found myself taxed almost 70%!

SEVENTY PERCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well 70% is way to much, there is no denying that. When i said that rich could pay more in tax, i ment a few extra precent. Having to pay 70% in taxes is ofc insane, no matter how much you earn or in what business.

Seeing where my tax money went, I left Denmark. (gg no re)

I haven't really kept up to date about the situation in Denmark for a number of years now but I have seen a few headlines and articles about how it sometimes can net LESS to work, rather than be on government help. As a result some people simply do NOT want to work. How is that not fucked up?
Ofc that is fucked up. I can totally agree with you that a lot of tax money are going to support the wrong stuff. And it should ALWAYS pay of to be working. Even if you are doing something as sweeping the streets, it should pay you WAY MORE than living of the government. I just feel like everyone should have the same chance to get educated, stay healthy and do something with their life if they want to. If someone decides to not do something, then ye, they can blame themselves for that.

Many Danes (I guess the same holds true for Swedes) REFUSE to take jobs, which is considered low on the social ladder, such as sweeping the streets.
Yep. A lot of young people have been brought up with that they are "so special" and that "you are perfect just the way you are" so why should they ever go for such a job? They are meant for something way more important. If they can't get into the university they want cos they lack the grades, ofc it is the system that "doesn't value them in a proper way" that is at fault, not that they didn't study. I have no sympathy for those kind of people. But there are also those who want to really do something and they should not be stopped just because they were born with poor parents so they can't attend university.

No, everyone don't benefit from a higher educated population. There have to be somebody to do the dirty and hard manual work. They are cheap and easy to replace, when they are worn out. Not exactly my philosophy either, but that's how it is and probably always has been.
Sorry, let me rephrase myself. What i meant was that the society benefits from when everyone has the same chance to get educated, then there is a better chance the most qualified people will get the jobs. Instead of that some of the highly intellectual and hardworking people simply just can't afford the education. There will still be people to do the manual work, since not everyone will get into university even if they try.

Of course I gave food, money and clothes to some of my workers in Africa and SEA out of my own pocket, what it did in reality was just to postpone what was bound to happen sooner or later. I sometimes wondered if I really did it for myself. What needs to be done is on government level, and not just a dude buying a few chickens at the market for the few weeks he is around.
You could have saved someones life with those gifts, you never know. But ofc what needs to be done is on a government level. I just wanted to point out that you could do something, it might not make much different to the whole world, but for a few people it could be the difference between life and death.

I am not ashamed to say that I am probably more of a capitalist than I am a socialist. Although SJW's would like me to feel like a bad person.
Ofc you shouldn't be ashamed, one should be proud of one's beliefs and talk about them. That is the only way to convince others or come across some argument that may change your point of view. The best discussions are those between two people who disagree to some extent.
SJW are just butt hurt in general and are in many cases the same people who don't want to take a certain job because they are "meant for something better", they are "just misunderstood and discriminated". No need to feel bad about yourself just because some SJW want you to join them in their misery.



Btw... Had I been US citizen I would probably have voted for Sanders :)

And now its time for coffee!

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