The long history of populism in the deep south

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The long history of populism in the deep south

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http://www.economist.com/news/united-st ... ma-support

Running from Washington to New Orleans, briefly known as the “Appian way of the South”, the federal road was soon made redundant by steamboats, railways and the telegraph. But during its brief heyday it sparked a war with the Creek, then helped to vanquish them. After conquest came migration: “Once the Indians were whipped,” says Mr Drummond, an expert on the road, “a flood of settlers came down it.” Some of the earliest took the fertile land of central Alabama—known as the Black Belt for its rich soil—and established cotton plantations, importing slaves to work on them. Others did the same on the floodplain of the Tennessee river. Later, poorer migrants settled the sandy Wiregrass region in the south-east, and in the beautiful but less fecund northern hills, where there were few slaves and fewer roads.

This economic pattern soon became a political one that, in essence, has endured across two centuries—even as the electorate has evolved and the road that helped to delineate it was reclaimed by the wilderness. In that pattern, Alabama’s yeomen farmers, and their descendants, have sporadically risen up against the plantation class and its modern equivalents, typically when hardship rallied them to a charismatic leader’s standard.

...

In the decades after the civil war, the yeoman farmers of Alabamian hill counties like Winston, and in the Wiregrass, believed they were being exploited. And they were. Land values plummeted even as property taxes rose. Needing cash, many began growing cotton, the price of which promptly collapsed. Some were ruined by the interest charged by supply merchants or—after they sold up and were forced into tenant farming—by rapacious landlords. In “Poor But Proud”, Wayne Flynt, a historian, charts the trajectory of David Manasco, a farmer in Winston County. In 1860 he owned land and property worth $1,400, no mean sum. By 1880 he was a sharecropper, the lowest form of tenancy.

As well as the hardship, there was a loss of honour. The soil may have been thin, but at least it had been theirs, and there was the hope of acquiring more of it. They had sunk from the freedom of the frontier to dependency. “We in Alabama have had more of that than most of the rest of the nation,” says Mr Bridges of that downward mobility. It hasn’t abated. These days many of the modest homes scattered amid Winston County’s deep forests and unexpected lakes are for sale. In what is still among the poorest parts of one of America’s poorest states, shops, warehouses and even some of those superabundant churches are shuttered. Junkyards abound. Around Double Springs, says Mr Robinson, the biggest employers are sawmills and mobile-home manufacturers; he hopes more tourists will come. The skyscrapers of Birmingham seem remote, just as the industrial prosperity of the vaunted post-war “New South” did to Kolb’s followers.

...

The ongoing need points up two consistent features of life and politics in the hill country. The first is its isolation, cultural as well as geographical, which endures despite the patina of sameness conferred by fast-food chains and motels. The other is a conflicted attitude to government among its warily hospitable residents. They still think it’s a racket, and, as ever, take pride in self-sufficiency. Here, says Ronald Jackson, whose family has lived in Winston County since before the civil war, “you don’t depend on the government, you take care of your own.” At the same time, unblinkingly and understandably, they want a bigger chunk of its largesse.


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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I can empathize with people in areas like that who feel that the government does nothing for them and that their towns are deteriorating. But I wonder, when Trump is inevitably unable to actually bring jobs back and revitalize areas like that, who will they turn to? Someone even more extreme?
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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They'll blame anyone but Trump.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by milku3459 »

fightinfrenchman wrote: when Trump is inevitably unable to actually bring jobs

Why inevitable?
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by fightinfrenchman »

milku3459 wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote: when Trump is inevitably unable to actually bring jobs

Why inevitable?


Because manufacturing jobs are not really lost because they move to China, they are lost due to automation, so whatever manufacturing plants do come back here will bring very little jobs. And if he actually does implement tariffs the cost of most goods will go up substantially.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by Laurence Drake »

milku3459 wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote: when Trump is inevitably unable to actually bring jobs

Why inevitable?

The economist has an article on this as well, coincidentally:

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/ ... ctory-jobs

tl;dr physical labour no longer adds much value to supply chains thanks to technology.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Robots tukur jurbs
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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We need to build a wall to keep the robots out!
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by Dolan »

It's not that it's an impossible scenario to "bring back manufacturing jobs", but that if they do come back they're not gonna be high-paying jobs. And will Americans work for 1276 bucks per month? Because that's the minimum wage ($7.25/hr, assuming an 8 hours/day 22-day working month). Even so, manufacturing would not be competitive with many other countries which can get workers for much less. So USA manufacturers would be forced to use more machines just because they can't be competitive with other countries if they use American workforce.

It's either that products have to become expensive and marketshare to shrink, or workers have to accept lower wages.

This dilemma is representative of the economic model of the West, where the services sector and knowledge economy have a much bigger share than the manufacturing sector and have been producing most of the GDP (USA employment by sector: 79.7% in the service sector, 19.2% in the manufacturing sector and 1.1% in the agriculture sector). But that means a lot of people in the USA do not produce anything tangible that sells worldwide. They just "design", "intermediate", "manage", "invest" etc etc. Most of the real work is done in other countries.

Electronics manufactured in East-Asian states (South Korea, China, Taiwan, etc).
Cars manufactured in Mexico, China, Japan, Brazil, Argentina, Canada, Indonesia, etc.
Pharmaceuticals made in Europe, Switzerland, Japan, China, Israel etc.
Computers, furniture, tractors, trailers, buses, trucks, phones, motors, etc, made in China, Europe, Japan etc.

I live in Europe and I've never bought a product with a "Made in USA" label on it. Nobody seems to sell that here.

What is the USA famous for in the manufacturing sector? Is there any category in which they're the best? Fighter jets, maybe. Anything that regular consumers can buy?

Never saw any such great American products in Europe.

PS. Oh wait, Hollywood movies. The bullshit industry, basically.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by evilcheadar »

Dolan wrote:It's not that it's an impossible scenario to "bring back manufacturing jobs", but that if they do come back they're not gonna be high-paying jobs. And will Americans work for 1276 bucks per month? Because that's the minimum wage ($7.25/hr, assuming an 8 hours/day 22-day working month). Even so, manufacturing would not be competitive with many other countries which can get workers for much less. So USA manufacturers would be forced to use more machines just because they can't be competitive with other countries if they use American workforce.

It's either that products have to become expensive and marketshare to shrink, or workers have to accept lower wages.

This dilemma is representative of the economic model of the West, where the services sector and knowledge economy have a much bigger share than the manufacturing sector and have been producing most of the GDP (USA employment by sector: 79.7% in the service sector, 19.2% in the manufacturing sector and 1.1% in the agriculture sector). But that means a lot of people in the USA do not produce anything tangible that sells worldwide. They just "design", "intermediate", "manage", "invest" etc etc. Most of the real work is done in other countries.

Electronics manufactured in East-Asian states (South Korea, China, Taiwan, etc).
Cars manufactured in Mexico, China, Japan, Brazil, Argentina, Canada, Indonesia, etc.
Pharmaceuticals made in Europe, Switzerland, Japan, China, Israel etc.
Computers, furniture, tractors, trailers, buses, trucks, phones, motors, etc, made in China, Europe, Japan etc.

I live in Europe and I've never bought a product with a "Made in USA" label on it. Nobody seems to sell that here.

What is the USA famous for in the manufacturing sector? Is there any category in which they're the best? Fighter jets, maybe. Anything that regular consumers can buy?

Never saw any such great American products in Europe.

PS. Oh wait, Hollywood movies. The bullshit industry, basically.

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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by Dolan »

Ye but your biggest exporting market is not Europe.

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Because we have plenty of gun manufacturers here in Europe. So we don't really see any USA products here. Especially since we don't need guns to go to school or just walk in the streets.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by evilcheadar »

Dolan wrote:Ye but your biggest exporting market is not Europe.

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Because we have plenty of gun manufacturers here in Europe. So we don't really see any USA products here. Especially since we don't need guns to go to school or just walk in the streets.

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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by momuuu »

Some areas in the USA are very underdeveloped compared to the rest. I can understand a certain sense of dissatisfaction there. I dont think trump is going to help them out though.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Jerom wrote:Some areas in the USA are very underdeveloped compared to the rest. I can understand a certain sense of dissatisfaction there. I dont think trump is going to help them out though.


America is so big and diverse though, that's part of its greatness. For example, your whole country is the size of one state.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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The poor and underdeveloped part of the diversity of america is what makes it great? Interesting. Btw NL is smaller than most states.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Jerom wrote:The poor and underdeveloped part of the diversity of america is what makes it great? Interesting. Btw NL is smaller than most states.


I guess what I mean is that I'd rather live in the worst state than any part of the Netherlands.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Look as Pennsylvaina crushes Netherlands
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Post by evilcheadar »

Netherlands just sounds very underdeveloped, so many people ride bikes probably because they can't even afford a car.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Right, serious attempts at discussing ruined because you guys decided to troll again. Im surely enjoying this.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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I expect this kind of populism to spread throughout Europe due to lack of development despite the fact that America will quickly move beyond it
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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fightinfrenchman wrote:I expect this kind of populism to spread throughout Europe due to lack of development despite the fact that America will quickly move beyond it


What's the argument here? Lack of development? USA is behind Europe in the GINI coefficients, which show wealth distribution. Which means, that even if the USA might have more GDP/capita than most European states (but not all, Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway, Switzerland have more than the USA), most of that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few at the top.

USA infrastructure? Wanna compare? Do you even have internet? How do you get here?
I pay 10 bucks per month for TV and this
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For 3 extra bucks I could have 1Gbps internet here.

Roads? Bridges? https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015 ... ys-funding
Rail infrastructure? The US barely has any trains at all. I get it, it's part of the US culture to travel more by air or by car, but economically transportation of goods by plane is much more expensive than by trucks or trains.

USA ranks 14th in the infrastructure index (https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Global ... df#page=32), after Hong Kong, Singapore, Germany, France, Switzerland, UK, Netherlands etc.

Also, it's a myth that the US has more rural population, it doesn't. Europe has more rural population than the US. So ascribing Trump's success to having a large politically frustrated rural population would be a too simple explanation. Even if we consider that Trump didn't actually win the popular vote.

Finally, populism won't spread to Europe, because on average Europeans are smarter in terms of political culture. We don't have the typical US issues with guns and bibles and curing homosexuals with electricity. Europeans have more political and historical experience. We're not so split along "democrat/liberal" "republican" lines. Our politics is more fragmented and based on proportional representation. No 2-party system, no such simple dichotomies like in the US. We rarely, if ever, have one party gain a majority of seats in the parliament, enough to have its own one-party government. I don't even remember last time we had that. It's mostly about coalition governments here, so this means more variable points of view are represented in the act of government.

We don't see much of this childish behaviour in our politics: a new president/government comes to power and erases everything the previous administration did, just because we hate them and "we won". Your politics is more like Hollywood and the Superbowl, where there are only two teams: the good team and the bad/evil team. That's not how politics should work.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

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Dolan wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:I expect this kind of populism to spread throughout Europe due to lack of development despite the fact that America will quickly move beyond it


What's the argument here? Lack of development? USA is behind Europe in the GINI coefficients, which show wealth distribution. Which means, that even if the USA might have more GDP/capita than most European states (but not all, Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway, Switzerland have more than the USA), most of that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few at the top.

USA infrastructure? Wanna compare? Do you even have internet? How do you get here?
I pay 10 bucks per month for TV and this
Image

For 3 extra bucks I could have 1Gbps internet here.

Roads? Bridges? https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015 ... ys-funding
Rail infrastructure? The US barely has any trains at all. I get it, it's part of the US culture to travel more by air or by car, but economically transportation of goods by plane is much more expensive than by trucks or trains.

USA ranks 14th in the infrastructure index (https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Global ... df#page=32), after Hong Kong, Singapore, Germany, France, Switzerland, UK, Netherlands etc.

Also, it's a myth that the US has more rural population, it doesn't. Europe has more rural population than the US. So ascribing Trump's success to having a large politically frustrated rural population would be a too simple explanation. Even if we consider that Trump didn't actually win the popular vote.

Finally, populism won't spread to Europe, because on average Europeans are smarter in terms of political culture. We don't have the typical US issues with guns and bibles and curing homosexuals with electricity. Europeans have more political and historical experience. We're not so split along "democrat/liberal" "republican" lines. Our politics is more fragmented and based on proportional representation. No 2-party system, no such simple dichotomies like in the US. We rarely, if ever, have one party gain a majority of seats in the parliament, enough to have its own one-party government. I don't even remember last time we had that. It's mostly about coalition governments here, so this means more different point of view are represented in the act of government.

We don't see much of this childish behaviour in our politics: a new president/government comes to power and erases everything the previous administration did, just because we hate them and "we won". Your politics is more like Hollywood and the Superbowl, where there are only two teams: the good team and the bad/evil team. That's not how politics should work.


Lol at Europeans being smarter. America has never plunged the entire world into chaos. Also Britain voted to Brexit which was incredibly stupid and there is a terrifying change that Le Pen will win in France
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by Dolan »

Nope, Le Pen won't win. And even if she wins, she's like Sturgeon in Scotland who tries to use the anti-Brexit majority to get a new independence referendum, but it's not that simple. There are lots of Scots who voted against Brexit but pro-Union.

Same shit will happen in France if Le Pen gets elected. She holds a referendum on pulling France out of the EU and the population votes against it. Big fucking KEK. Then she has to backpedal like Trump with NATO and other stuff.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Dolan wrote:Nope, Le Pen won't win. And even if she wins, she's like Sturgeon in Scotland who tries to use the anti-Brexit majority to get a new independence referendum, but it's not that simple. There are lots of Scots who voted against Brexit but pro-Union.

Same shit will happen in France if Le Pen gets elected. She holds a referendum on pulling France out of the EU and the population votes against it. Big fucking KEK. Then she has to backpedal like Trump with NATO and other stuff.


Yeah I was super sure that Clinton was going to win and it ended up not happening, so your insistence that Le Pen won't win is not reassuring to me.
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Re: The long history of populism in the deep south

Post by Dolan »

Le Pen's % is in the thirties. She'll get in the second round, then everyone else will unite to defeat her. But again, I'm not afraid of a Le Pen win. I know the French will not vote for her anti-EU shit. The only reason she's on a roll now is because of immigration issues and Hollande's major failure to secure France against terrorism. That doesn't mean people would support everything she says, like closer relations with Russia, dismantling NATO, pulling out of the EU/Euro etc. People know she can't do any of that without holding a referendum, and then the people will vote against her "nationalism". The French are too smart for that. They're just at the end of their tether when it comes to Muslim and African immigration and no politician seems able or willing to solve that. That's why Le Pen is even relevant right now.

She has been lashing out at the EU for years now and didn't get so popular thanks to that. Her rise to popularity began on the backdrop of a failing political establishment and rising immigration levels.

Brexit happened for different reasons. What pushed the Brits over the edge was immigration again, but this was bound to happen in a country that has had a long history of Euroscepticism. You have to understand British foreign policy hasn't changed at all during the last few hundreds of years. They're still trying to pit one European country against another to avoid Europe banding together in a strong political and economic entity. They've been doing that in the 18th century, during the Concert of Europe, during the 19th century when they tried to join the Triple Alliance in order to destroy it etc. The Brits never liked a strong Europe, moreso now when they don't have the empire anymore which makes them feel even less relevant and fidgety.

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