Time to Pay Up

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Time to Pay Up

Post by evilcheadar »

Looks like Mattis is gonna make the freeloading part of NATO pay their fair share. He's gonna put pressure on places like the Netherlands to hit that 2% budget agreement.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/w ... oogle.com/
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by fightinfrenchman »

I don't like the idea of us antagonizing our important allies, and so I can't say I support this. However I will take some pleasure in knowing that some Dutchmen will have to either pay more taxes or have some services taken away from them.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by evilcheadar »

It's time they start putting effort into a plan to hit that 2% which is what Mattis saysh he wants according to the article. He's not demanding it happens tomorrow or anything. It's very reasonable!
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Re: Time to Pay Up

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

evilcheadar wrote:It's time they start putting effort into a plan to hit that 2% which is what Mattis saysh he wants according to the article. He's not demanding it happens tomorrow or anything. It's very reasonable!


Ideally this will lead to the Netherlands building up their military so much that they institute a draft, forcing Jerom and Bramboy into the service and taking them away from the forumsh
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by evilcheadar »

It would be a good experience for them, should instill some discipline and self control.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by spanky4ever »

I think its only fair that Nato allies pay their fair share. US tax payers should not carry Europa the way they have been in the past. This was also something Obama was advocation, but not that clearly, maybe?
When that is said, the amount of money Nato are using, not to speak of USA - is bonkers imo.
USA spend more than the next 10 countries, COMBINED, on military per year! And now the Dump say that military spending has been lagging, and you need to spend MORE?
Next cold war and crazy arms raise (to the big bang?) getting more and more a reality. These are dark times (quoting queen Elisabeth) and really scary ones, for those of you who cares to inform yourself on international politics :cry:
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Re: Time to Pay Up

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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by dietschlander »

Lol, a Dutch politician want to buy bombing drones while the Dutch joined the bombing drones criticisms.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by Dolan »

I agree. Everyone in NATO must pay their share. And European states have been slacking on defense expenditure.

Though, this is mostly symbolic, because if you ask Bulgaria to pay 2% (now they're only spending about 1.20% of their GDP on defense), that's just some extra $1.144 bn, since their GDP is so small it's just a drop in a pool.

But if we turn to Germany, the difference amounts to $28 bn.

USA spent $521 bn for defense in 2016, for comparison. Most of the money spent on defense in the US comes from the so-called discretionary budget which is not expenditure required by law. Just money approved by the Congress to be spent on top of what the law requires. It's very likely this very high level of discretionary spending contributes to your huge deficit, and thus to your growing debt.

So your mega-hyper-ultra-funded army depends on the Chinese, Japanese and other countries to keep buying your debt for you to be able to do this gun-toting global LARPing. If they stop buying your debt, you will afford less of it. Unless of course, your Fed doesn't just start printing like crazy, making the dollar worth less than the paper it's printed on.

Secondly, we didn't ask you to spend so much on defense. Who asked you to install an anti-ballistic system in Romania and Poland? Did you see us begging you "plspls come install an anti-ballistic system here"? Noper.

You asked us, because it was in your strategic interest to counter """"""Iran's potential threats""""""" (basically bullshit, we all know what these systems are meant for). Do you know what those anti-ballistic systems achieve for you? They are deterrents against a possible strike by Russia. And what do you think Russia would do first, strike the USA or strike these countries first to make sure they can't hit'em?

Yep, that's what your strategy is. Under the guise of "protecting Europe" you created a target for Russians to strike first, which would give you enough time to react before they attack you. So, these systems are worth shit for our defense, it's an illusory shield against Russia, it just turns us into first targets. So, I'd actually like you to take them back. This is my message to you:

Image

And if we, Europeans have to spend more on defense, then why the fuck wouldn't we simply create our own big army and stop waiting on you. But nooo, you don't like that, do you? You wouldn't like Germany getting in an arms' race again, wouldn't ya? Well, be careful what you're asking for, because you might get it. :smile:
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Lol the USA being a the only real superpower in the world makes people more safe. If we drastically lower spending on our military than China would absolutely seize that opportunity.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by evilcheadar »

Dolan wrote:I agree. Everyone in NATO must pay their share. And European states have been slacking on defense expenditure.

Though, this is mostly symbolic, because if you ask Bulgaria to pay 2% (now they're only spending about 1.20% of their GDP on defense), that's just some extra $1.144 bn, since their GDP is so small it's just a drop in a pool.

But if we turn to Germany, the difference amounts to $28 bn.

USA spent $521 bn for defense in 2016, for comparison. Most of the money spent on defense in the US comes from the so-called discretionary budget which is not expenditure required by law. Just money approved by the Congress to be spent on top of what the law requires. It's very likely this very high level of discretionary spending contributes to your huge deficit, and thus to your growing debt.

So your mega-hyper-ultra-funded army depends on the Chinese, Japanese and other countries to keep buying your debt for you to be able to do this gun-toting global LARPing. If they stop buying your debt, you will afford less of it. Unless of course, your Fed doesn't just start printing like crazy, making the dollar worth less than the paper it's printed on.

Secondly, we didn't ask you to spend so much on defense. Who asked you to install an anti-ballistic system in Romania and Poland? Did you see us begging you "plspls come install an anti-ballistic system here"? Noper.

You asked us, because it was in your strategic interest to counter """"""Iran's potential threats""""""" (basically bullshit, we all know what these systems are meant for). Do you know what those anti-ballistic systems achieve for you? They are deterrents against a possible strike by Russia. And what do you think Russia would do first, strike the USA or strike these countries first to make sure they can't hit'em?

Yep, that's what your strategy is. Under the guise of "protecting Europe" you created a target for Russians to strike first, which would give you enough time to react before they attack you. So, these systems are worth shit for our defense, it's an illusory shield against Russia, it just turns us into first targets. So, I'd actually like you to take them back. This is my message to you:

Image

And if we, Europeans have to spend more on defense, then why the fuck wouldn't we simply create our own big army and stop waiting on you. But nooo, you don't like that, do you? You wouldn't like Germany getting in an arms' race again, wouldn't ya? Well, be careful what you're asking for, because you might get it. :smile:

You really think even Germany has a chance of winning an arms race with the US--and going to war? Not even close. The idea that Poland would spurn US defense measures is also quite amusing but not based in reality. You should also do some research into these missile defense systems as it seems you lack basic knowledge about them.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

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Post by Dolan »

I'm not gonna spend much time on this.

You said it's time for Europe to pay more for defense, right?

How about ...we don't.

Whatcha gonna do? Throw your asses on the ground and wail?

You could start by packing up and taking your military bases and missile systems back. You need to go back.

We don't have to pay more, you need to go back.

Then we can pay for our own defense.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by evilcheadar »

Dolan wrote:I'm not gonna spend much time on this.

You said it's time for Europe to pay more for defense, right?

How about ...we don't.

Whatcha gonna do? Throw your asses on the ground and wail?

You could start by packing up and taking your military bases and missile systems back. You need to go back.

We don't have to pay more, you need to go back.

Then we can pay for our own defense.

As per the real world, should we pack up and leave it will be Europe throwing their asses on the ground and wailing. They're already squirming at even the idea that the US might change the terms of its commitment to NATO.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by Dolan »

No, really, do it. Let us wallow in despair.

[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Dolan wrote:I'm not gonna spend much time on this.

You said it's time for Europe to pay more for defense, right?

How about ...we don't.

Whatcha gonna do? Throw your asses on the ground and wail?

You could start by packing up and taking your military bases and missile systems back. You need to go back.

We don't have to pay more, you need to go back.

Then we can pay for our own defense.


We can't trust the various countries in Europe to not blow themselves up, as they have done twice in the past century. So until the EU becomes a single glorious country with one military you need us
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by spanky4ever »

fightinfrenchman wrote:Lol the USA being a the only real superpower in the world makes people more safe. If we drastically lower spending on our military than China would absolutely seize that opportunity.


For your info - USA spend almost 3 times more than China :shock:

And why would China attack USA? their biggest milking cow :?: :lol: :lol:

Guess this is the kind of shit US citizens believe? so that the military industrial complex and Pentagon can spend all your tax dollars - without any questions asked :uglylol:
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Re: Time to Pay Up

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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by Goodspeed »

It's cute that you think European defense spending is an issue while neglecting what I consider to be basic human rights like health care and education in your own country. You don't have your priorities straight. I'll happily continue to live in a place that considers the well-being of its citizens more important than the destructive and never-ending global arms race.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by fightinfrenchman »

iwillspankyou wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:Lol the USA being a the only real superpower in the world makes people more safe. If we drastically lower spending on our military than China would absolutely seize that opportunity.


For your info - USA spend almost 3 times more than China :shock:

And why would China attack USA? their biggest milking cow :?: :lol: :lol:

Guess this is the kind of shit US citizens believe? so that the military industrial complex and Pentagon can spend all your tax dollars - without any questions asked :uglylol:


Yes of course, I am simply brainwashed.

We spend more than China because it allows us to maintain some control over the world and prevent another superpower from taking control.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by evilcheadar »

Goodspeed wrote:It's cute that you think European defense spending is an issue while neglecting what I consider to be basic human rights like health care and education in your own country. You don't have your priorities straight. I'll happily continue to live in a place that considers the well-being of its citizens more important than the destructive and never-ending global arms race.

Security of person is actually a human right and actually is crucial to a citizen's wellbeing.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by spanky4ever »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:Lol the USA being a the only real superpower in the world makes people more safe. If we drastically lower spending on our military than China would absolutely seize that opportunity.


For your info - USA spend almost 3 times more than China :shock:

And why would China attack USA? their biggest milking cow :?: :lol: :lol:

Guess this is the kind of shit US citizens believe? so that the military industrial complex and Pentagon can spend all your tax dollars - without any questions asked :uglylol:


Yes of course, I am simply brainwashed.

We spend more than China because it allows us to maintain some control over the world and prevent another superpower from taking control.


You might not like my response to your post; but Imo the military industrial complex and Pentagon are driving you bankrupt by raging wars, and inventing enemies! Do you know that USA are in combat with 8 different counties right now?
So yes, I think you are kind of brainwashed :shock: If you where not, how would you allow so much of government money being spent on military and arms raise? Think of what USA could have been instead! just try to imagine half of the money you spend on military - going to benefit the US citizens :flowers:
As I see it. the out posting of US troops in Europa now, are only destabilizing the balance between Russia and Nato - and very bad things can happen in a new cold wars (specially with a lunatic in the white house)
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by fightinfrenchman »

iwillspankyou wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:
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Yes of course, I am simply brainwashed.

We spend more than China because it allows us to maintain some control over the world and prevent another superpower from taking control.


You might not like my response to your post; but Imo the military industrial complex and Pentagon are driving you bankrupt by raging wars, and inventing enemies! Do you know that USA are in combat with 8 different counties right now?
So yes, I think you are kind of brainwashed :shock: If you where not, how would you allow so much of government money being spent on military and arms raise? Think of what USA could have been instead! just try to imagine half of the money you spend on military - going to benefit the US citizens :flowers:
As I see it. the out posting of US troops in Europa now, are only destabilizing the balance between Russia and Nato - and very bad things can happen in a new cold wars (specially with a lunatic in the white house)


1.) The United States is in no way going "bankrupt"

2.) I agree that military spending could be reduced. But if we cut it significantly it will allow another state to grow in power and influence around the world. Our military and our position in the world does benefit the US.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by momuuu »

kami_ryu wrote:We spend too much on military imo, but most people are fine with that. To be fair, it does represent a lot of jobs and technology which is good for US people.

If you look at Crimea or the South China sea, the defense budget is also kind of justified. Not completely, but somewhat. China, Russia and other nations don't really have moral standards like Occidental countries when it comes to invading neighbors and annexing territory. Though to be fair, it's not like we didn't invade Iraq either. That war was a dumb, terrible thing. A black mark on American history (not that it's very white).

It's kind of a mess and there's no easy, obvious solution either. I don't really think Europeans need to spend more on military though. What they have is sufficient. In the USA we could probably do more with less but... not without some significant compromises:

https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/commen ... y/d3e61tq/

As for the well-being of US citizens, well, it's certainly question. With idiots like Devos in power. We didn't ask for this.

To be fair the NL army could use some extra money. It can hardly be called an army. But on the other hand I feel like the current standing armies are irrelevant when it comes to actual war on home territory. By the time political tensions rise to the point that a war (but one without nuclear weapons) is likely we'll have plenty of time to get the war machine up and going.
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Re: Time to Pay Up

Post by spanky4ever »

@fightinfrenchman said:
1.) The United States is in no way going "bankrupt"

No of course you are not, my bad. Only I bet it feels like that for almost half of the US pop who are "poor", and all those who have to live on 7 dollar per hour, and do not have the right to good health-service or clean drinking water :unsure:
Strange, when we know that USA are the richest country compared to every other countries at ALL TIMES :shock:
Now, your disaster of a president want taxes on corporations to be set to 15% (from 25% today) while spending even more on your military and starting a new crazy arms-race!! AND he simultaneous want to "fix" your crumbling infrastructure?

Bet he will get tons of loans to finance this, and add to your already heavy debt :?:
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