Is Moesbarring cheating?

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United States of America TheFrozenStrelet
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by TheFrozenStrelet »

Either it's a level playing field or its a ruined game.I can't see a valid argument in between this. Now if both players are doing the "moesbar" crap then they are both in the wrong.

AOE3 has become in a depressed state because you can do whatever you want online without any consequences other than the pest list.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Clearly it's a level playing field. I already made this clear!
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by Amsel_ »

I :love: :love: :love: wanted to reply to this, :hehe: :hehe: :hehe: but ESOC :love: doesn't support :mad: the tears of joy emoji. :ohmy: :ohmy: :ohmy: :ohmy: I'm at a loss for words. :cry:
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

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Post by Googol »

using moesbar is cheating, but it is easily countered by OOS, which is an legit strategy, and most of all this legit strategy has the biggest sucess rate of all legit strategies, making it the ultimate wepaon to beat your enemies with.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by vardar »

OOoooOOoOOoSSSSsssSsssSSSssSS
c0ns!
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by j_t_kirk »

Googol wrote:using moesbar is cheating, but it is easily countered by OOS, which is an legit strategy, and most of all this legit strategy has the biggest sucess rate of all legit strategies, making it the ultimate wepaon to beat your enemies with.

@Papist
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by evilcheadar »

Alt+D is a good mechanic. There is a downside to using it so it’s not overpowered.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

evilcheadar wrote:Alt+D is a good mechanic. There is a downside to using it so it’s not overpowered.


Stop going off topic. This thread is about Moesbarring. Don't try to make it about Alt-Dick.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by Googol »

@iamturk whats your opinion about it ? I want to hear the opinion of the legendary shurk
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

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Post by iamturk »

Googol wrote:@iamturk whats your opinion about it ? I want to hear the opinion of the legendary shurk


All this things can not compete with the real shurk power. Thats what can i say. :smile:
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by evilcheadar »

umeu wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:Alt+D is a good mechanic. There is a downside to using it so it’s not overpowered.


Stop going off topic. This thread is about Moesbarring. Don't try to make it about Alt-Dick.

What’s alt-Dick?
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by Snuden »

An alternative dick, look in your pants.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by deleted_user »

In contention for best post on ESOC. I keep returning to read it again.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

momuuu wrote:
umeu wrote:But they aren't cheats. Just mechanics and you guys are brainless nerdtators for blocking them. I hope anonymous will hack your silly little patch. Free the Moesbar!

Is this meant to be a joke, or actually meant to make a point?

It's a joke poking fun at people who think the crackshot quick shot bug is a legitimate mechanic for the four reasons umeu mentioned. Great post!
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by Sargsyan »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
momuuu wrote:
umeu wrote:But they aren't cheats. Just mechanics and you guys are brainless nerdtators for blocking them. I hope anonymous will hack your silly little patch. Free the Moesbar!

Is this meant to be a joke, or actually meant to make a point?

It's a joke poking fun at people who think the crackshot quick shot bug is a legitimate mechanic for the four reasons umeu mentioned. Great post!

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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by _H2O »

momuuu wrote:Well, if its a joke then its quite funny, but Ive seen so many braindead things come up that I cant tell anymore. On the other hand, if this is a bit serious (as in satirical criticism) then you'd be really dumb. Ive always thought you werent that stupid.


It is satirical criticism of the defense of alt-d and to a lesser extent fast firing. This reads exactly how the arguement in those other threads work. Since the impact is lower it’s harder to see why the arguements in the other thread are not solid. Here it is glaringly obvious.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

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Post by Hazza54321 »

If both players cN moesbar then its finr tight? It’s positive for thr game becayse diarougs veru intelliget
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by momuuu »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:Well, if its a joke then its quite funny, but Ive seen so many braindead things come up that I cant tell anymore. On the other hand, if this is a bit serious (as in satirical criticism) then you'd be really dumb. Ive always thought you werent that stupid.


It is satirical criticism of the defense of alt-d and to a lesser extent fast firing. This reads exactly how the arguement in those other threads work. Since the impact is lower it’s harder to see why the arguements in the other thread are not solid. Here it is glaringly obvious.

My god..
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:Well, if its a joke then its quite funny, but Ive seen so many braindead things come up that I cant tell anymore. On the other hand, if this is a bit serious (as in satirical criticism) then you'd be really dumb. Ive always thought you werent that stupid.


It is satirical criticism of the defense of alt-d and to a lesser extent fast firing. This reads exactly how the arguement in those other threads work. Since the impact is lower it’s harder to see why the arguements in the other thread are not solid. Here it is glaringly obvious.

Yes it's the same arguments but this thread doesn't make them wrong because it's just different situations.

Because x^2+1=0 doesn't have a solution in real numbers it doesn't mean it doesn't have a solution at all :chinese:
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

No. The situation is the same. Why is it different? Just because you say so?
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:No. The situation is the same. Why is it different? Just because you say so?

Because you take an extreme situation, while fast shooting isn't.
I though it was just a troll post but if you actually want to make a point you have to keep in mind that even if a non game-breaking, small glitch, which is cool, is fine, it doesn't mean the most extreme cheat is fine too.

Ex:
A1) Reasonable but controversial opinion: Muslims and immigration are an issue in Europe
B1) Reasonable but controversial opinion: fast shooting is a cool mechanic

A2) Wrong opinion because too extreme: We should thus kill all the muslims
B2) Wrong opinion because too extreme: Since fast shooting is fine, moesbar is fine too
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by momuuu »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:Well, if its a joke then its quite funny, but Ive seen so many braindead things come up that I cant tell anymore. On the other hand, if this is a bit serious (as in satirical criticism) then you'd be really dumb. Ive always thought you werent that stupid.


It is satirical criticism of the defense of alt-d and to a lesser extent fast firing. This reads exactly how the arguement in those other threads work. Since the impact is lower it’s harder to see why the arguements in the other thread are not solid. Here it is glaringly obvious.

So normally, I'd simply point out that this is a straw man fallacy and redirect you to the wikipedia article on it so that you can enlighten yourself on how to actually use argumentation properly. But my god, this is so bad, so devoid of logic, it's so weird that someone can post what you just posted and think that he had a point that I just have to pick it apart.

My point, as has come up in multiple threads and multiple essays (the latest one was quite big and covered almost everything with actual arguments, which you've somehow chosen to ignore - really if it was that stupid you should be able to pick apart the entire reasoning right? But hey, you're apperantly not really into normal thinking and try to approach discussions with fallacies, o well) and the point has been pretty nuanced. I've presented a nuanced view on bugs, with a basis in actual facts. The reasoning could shortly be summarized as follows:

1) Bugs are not necessarily cheating. This is a fact backed up by numerous sources that state the same thing and numerous examples of bugs being accepted in other gaming communities, aswell as by the fact that treasure creeping and to a lesser extend pull trick are allowed in the aoe3 community. The opposing party (unfortunately for that party it mostly consisted out of garja) has provided not a single source showing that bugs are by definition cheating (unless you consider garja's opinion a valid source of course).
2) I then argued that alt-d has effects that can be perceived as positive. In other words, there are aspects of alt-d that one can consider an improvement to the gameplay of aoe3. Here happens something really weird: you believe that alt-d has mostly negative effects on the game because you perceive those things as such, but your brain somehow does not allow you to see the other side of the argument. You, and with it many others that have participated in the discussion, seem to be unable to acknowledge that it's certainly possible to have a different view. I for one would agree that I think the game is better without alt-d, yet I can actually understand the arguments in favor of it (and then realize the sum of all aspects of alt-d leads me to my conclusion). You simply conclude that what you think is fact - at least that's how you've been acting in this discussion

It's not a complicated argument. It's actually very simple. It's confusing to me that you think it's impossible to have some opinion on something. The way you approach my logic is as if it is simply ridiculous to prefer some things about alt-d, but this is a very weird thing to do. In many cases there are arguments for and against something. In some of these cases the arguments against it are overwhelming and so generally almost everyone is against it (yet, it's possible to still think otherwise because you weigh some arguments much more than others). My point is exactly that alt-d is a case where there are at least reasonable ways to look at it that make you conclude in favor of it. Then, you say my logic is as if saying moesbar can be viewed positively. First and foremost, logically speaking its absolutely possible to think moesbar is good for the game. If one for example hates aoe3 and strategy, but likes games where apm and speed is everything, I surely think that person would prefer playing aoe3 with moesbar. Obviously though, since moesbar changes the game to the point where aoe3 as we know it doesn't exist anymore, I'd argue that any person that likes playing aoe3 (which would include the entire community) prefers to play without moesbar. But then lets actually look at your argument. I'm representing a nuanced view on a case that clearly has up and downsides, and you counter it by saying thats the same as saying there are up and downsides to something that doesn't actually clearly has up and downsides.

This is extremely silly. Let me come up with some equivalent examples:
1) I state that I prefer progressive taxes because I think it's a more fair way to distribute money. You say that's the same logic as saying we should take all money and equally distribute it amongst people regardless of what work they do or how much they work. You then say that that obviously failed (communism failed) so then you say that my idea of progressive taxes has the same flawed logic and thus is wrong. Obviously, this line of reasoning is retarded. I hope you can see that.
2) I state that I think someone swearing to someone else shouldn't be punished by the justice system, because I believe the freedom in what one does and what one says is really important. You then say that that's basically the same logic as saying that murder shouldn't be punished because people should be free to do what they want. Obviously the first one is a nuanced case while the latter one is not nuanced at all.

In both these examples, the first argument is a nuanced case where one decides to favor one side of it on the basis of arguments. The second argument counters that first argument by saying that if the case wasn't nuanced but extreme, that the reasoning would be bad then. Yet the case is nuanced, that is the part of the entire argument and inherent to any good argument made with regards to the case. If my entire argument is that the discussion about alt-d is a nuanced discussion with pros and cons, and you state that my reasoning is wrong because of an example of moesbar, which is not actually a nuanced discussion, then you're using a straw man fallacy.

I don't get how a reasonably smart person like you can use a retarded line of logic like this and actually think it's making a point. It's almost as if you formed an opinion on alt-d, but then forgot the difference between an opinion and a fact and are now looking for a hole in the reasoning that contests what you've always thought to be a fact. After all, I'd also look for a problem in the reasoning if someone contested something that I considered a fact. Yet the acceptation of bug abuse like alt-d or crackshot bug are not a matter of fact. They are clearly subjective as is shown by the evidence I have provided. I think you'd use fewer stupid arguments if you'd accept that you're not defending a fact but an opinion.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:No. The situation is the same. Why is it different? Just because you say so?

statement one:
Freedom is important, so someone should be able to say what he wants

statement two:
Freedom is important, so someone should be allowed to murder others

Your implied argument:
It's ridiculous to think someone should be allowed to murder others, so it's ridiculous to think that someone should be allowed to say what he wants to say.

The outset is the same: no bug is by definition a cheat. The nuances, which are completely ignored in your implied reasoning, are all that matters in the discussion. I'd argue against Moesbar because I dislike the effect it has on the game. If you like aoe3 as a game, it's hard to find arguments in favor of Moesbar. I'd argue in favor of the crackshot trick because I like the effect it has on the game. It's not hard to find both arguments in favor and against the crackshot trick. I like the pull trick because I like the effect it has on the game. It's hard to find arguments in favor of the pull trick. The nuances are all that matters, and yet you say that my argument which only considers nuanced is bad if you were to ignore the nuances. Yes, an argument about nuances is indeed bad if there were no nuances. Yet clearly there are nuances.
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Diarouga is very intelligent lAdies and oh who M i kidding its just vry gentle mem here
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Re: Is Moesbarring cheating?

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Post by Garja »

Who's ever gonna read that
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