Strongest civ in the late colonial

Strongest Civ in late colonial

India
30
37%
Japan
26
32%
Iroquois
4
5%
Russia
5
6%
French (After early skirms)
3
4%
British
10
12%
Ottomons
4
5%
 
Total votes: 82

Australia Hazza54321
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by Hazza54321 »

depends how late in colonial xD
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Switzerland _venox_
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by _venox_ »

Jap will be maxed out at: 75 villagers (-6 starting and -8 from cards) = 61, and 61* 25sec/vill = 1525 seconds. To gather the first 100f let's say 10 sec = 1535 sec. : (60sec/min) = 25 minutes and 35 seconds.
India will be maxed out at (99 villagers - 6 starting -1 for each shipment, normally you have 13-14 shipments) = 80, *25sec/vill = 2000seconds. To gather the first 100w let's say 10 sec = 2010 sec. :(60sec/min) = 33 minutes and 30 seconds.
Last edited by _venox_ on 20 Jun 2015, 09:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: IamSoldier suddenly cares about mi grammer
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Netherlands momuuu
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by momuuu »

I'd say late colonial happens before that already.

Maybe late colonial starts after like the 5th or 6th shipment? It's all about how you define it. Also, it's hard to compare India and Japan without starting to talk about the match up. But I don't think the match up is really relevant given the question, so stuff like "india should destroy Japan shrines" is kinda hard to value.

Honestly, I really don't have a clue how these could be compared within the topic. You'd kinda have to isolate the civs late-colonial from whatever normally happens in the game, and try to decide which one is better, which is hard.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by Hazza54321 »

india gather from hunts, and dont bombard me with those stats they dont mean anything to me lol
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by SoldieR »

venox wrote:Jap will be maxed out at: 75 villagers (-6 starting and -8 from cards) = 61, * 61.25sec/vill = 1525 seconds. To gather the first 100f let''s say 10 sec = 1535 sec. : (60sec/min) = 25 minutes and 35 seconds.
India will be maxed out at (99 villagers - 6 starting -1 for each shipment, normally you have 13-14 shipments) = 80, *25sec/vill = 2000seconds. To gather the first 100w let''s say 10 sec = 2010 sec. :(60sec/min) = 33 minutes and 30 seconds.
What is this 61.25 sec per vil for jap and 25sec per vil India...
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No Flag Jaeger
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by Jaeger »

iamsoldier wrote:
venox wrote:Jap will be maxed out at: 75 villagers (-6 starting and -8 from cards) = 61, * 61.25sec/vill = 1525 seconds. To gather the first 100f lets say 10 sec = 1535 sec. : (60sec/min) = 25 minutes and 35 seconds.
India will be maxed out at (99 villagers - 6 starting -1 for each shipment, normally you have 13-14 shipments) = 80, *25sec/vill = 2000seconds. To gather the first 100w lets say 10 sec = 2010 sec. :(60sec/min) = 33 minutes and 30 seconds.
What is this 61.25 sec per vil for jap and 25sec per vil India...
Its probably just a mistype, he actually used the correct number for japan (25s) in the calculation, 61 * 25 = 1525 like he got
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Switzerland _venox_
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by _venox_ »

Corrected now. My point was that japan maxes out on economy earlier and with the shrines that you spam earlier on Japan has the better economy (20 shrines + 75 villagers at about 25 minutes as opposed to 33 minutes. Only when maxed out India is leading in economy and until then Japan is ahead + the infinite resource factor, but -gathers berries.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by momuuu »

hazza54321 wrote:india gather from hunts, and dont bombard me with those stats they dont mean anything to me lol
It''s advantage, but its not that huge since Japan gets upgrades for berries. Without upgrades, I think hunting is about twice as fast as berries, but with berry upgrades it isn''t that big of a deal (don''t know the exact numbers though). Since hunting also requires you to move from hunt to hunt and waste a few vill seconds on that, maybe the gathering rates are surprisingly even.
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Switzerland _venox_
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Post by _venox_ »

it is 0.67 food per second from berries vs 0.84 food per second from hunts for regular villagers.
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Post by momuuu »

venox wrote:it is 0.67 food per second from berries vs 0.84 food per second from hunts for regular villagers.
It''s probably more relevnt to calculate it after applying the upgrades, because the difference will get bigger then. I just don''t know the percentages of the upgrades.
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Post by _venox_ »

no it won't get bigger because both are asian civs with the same market upgrades
the difference in % will stay the same, which is about 25% bigger. If A = 1.25*B, then x*A = 1.25*x*B too, x stands for the market upgrades in %.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by momuuu »

venox wrote:no it won''t get bigger because both are asian civs with the same market upgrades
the difference in % will stay the same, which is about 25% bigger. If A = 1.25*B, then x*A = 1.25*x*B too, x stands for the market upgrades in %.
but the absolute difference is what matters imo, because you have to take walking time into account.
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Switzerland _venox_
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Post by _venox_ »

Yes walking time has a bigger impact the higher the gather rates but you can't calculate that and walking time doesn't have that big of an impact between A and x*A. And no it's not the absolute difference that matters, it's the units you will get when the resources are spent which too are affected by the same percentage x.
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New Zealand zoom
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

hazza54321 wrote:well shrines are vulnerable(efficient ones), india get a vill with each shipment, 4 vill from cons, 7 vill worth of wood tricles, french consulate, karni mata(optional), they tend to get their market ups earlier.
And depends how late but japs can only get 75vills whist india gets 103
They are but late Colonial that isn''t a problem with Japanese.
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New Zealand zoom
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

garja wrote:
zoom wrote:I never said Russians Colonial Age full economy is bad' I said and am still saying I dont see how it is by any means superior to the British, and your above points have little to nothing to do with Colonial Age full economy, although they certainly help a lot before that point.
By thetime brits is spamming from 2 raxes and 1 stable, Russia is spamming from 2bh and 2 stables, thats superior eco. Res line doesnt mean that much if the other units are way more cost effective.

Also India maxed colonial eco is even stronger than japanese one. The eco (or the units) is not what win games for Japan in that MU.

And we are not discussing about colonial age full economy anymore really, as there isnt even a point that defines it (technically it should be at 99 vills with all market ups and cards, which means all euro civs have roughly same eco).
We are rather talking of how civ realistically scale in late colonial.
There is no chance Russians can maintain double BH and Stables production when British are first able to maintain double Barracks and single Stables (at about 12-13 minutes). Theres just no way. Resources gathered means everything as far as economy is concerned. Units being cost effective is a military advantage' I am discussing resources gathered strictly and full Colonial Age economy British and Russians economies should be very close, and not in clearly in favor of Russians.

Indians full Colonial Age economy might be about even with the Japanese but before that point they arent really close presuming Shrines with gatherers.

Thats fine, so long as its defined. In those terms Russians are close and Japanese are ahead IMO.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:There is no chance Russians can maintain double BH and Stables production when British are first able to maintain double Barracks and single Stables (at about 12-13 minutes). There''s just no way. Resources gathered means everything as far as economy is concerned. Units being cost effective is a military advantage' I am discussing resources gathered strictly and full Colonial Age economy British and Russians economies should be very close, and not in clearly in favor of Russians.

Indians'' full Colonial Age economy might be about even with the Japanese but before that point they aren''t really close presuming Shrines with gatherers.

That''s fine, so long as it''s defined. In those terms Russians are close and Japanese are ahead IMO.

Trust me that Russia has the eco to do that, I guess you miss the right build.
And India eco is always pretty even with the jap one. Again I think you miss the right India build. In real games btw India rushes japan so they get ahead even.
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New Zealand zoom
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

You're absolutely convinced Russians are able to maintain dual infantry and cavalry production by the time the British are first able to maintain dual infantry and single cavalry production. Am I reading that correctly? Considering how quickly units train in batches that would require not only a good enough economy to produce more cycles concurrently, but to additionally spend more resources per time on units...
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Post by _venox_ »

zoom wrote:
garja wrote:By thetime brits is spamming from 2 raxes and 1 stable, Russia is spamming from 2bh and 2 stables, thats superior eco. Res line doesnt mean that much if the other units are way more cost effective.

Also India maxed colonial eco is even stronger than japanese one. The eco (or the units) is not what win games for Japan in that MU.

And we are not discussing about colonial age full economy anymore really, as there isnt even a point that defines it (technically it should be at 99 vills with all market ups and cards, which means all euro civs have roughly same eco).
We are rather talking of how civ realistically scale in late colonial.
There is no chance Russians can maintain double BH and Stables production when British are first able to maintain double Barracks and single Stables (at about 12-13 minutes). Theres just no way. Resources gathered means everything as far as economy is concerned. Units being cost effective is a military advantage' I am discussing resources gathered strictly and full Colonial Age economy British and Russians economies should be very close, and not in clearly in favor of Russians.

Indians full Colonial Age economy might be about even with the Japanese but before that point they arent really close presuming Shrines with gatherers.

Thats fine, so long as its defined. In those terms Russians are close and Japanese are ahead IMO.
yes youre right when you say its about the res gathered and not the income per minute, but it actually is about res and how efficient you can spend them. If one player can trade his strelets for the enemy xbows cost efficiently, this means that the russian player got more out of his 2000 res in strelets and traded it against 3000 res in xbows. Imagine a civ that gets musketeers for 2/3 the usual cost' the enemy needs to outgather said imaginative nation by (2/3)^-1 = by 50% if all they train are musketeers. To be clear:

Nation A: (2000 res per minute) divided by 1 musketeer per (2/3)*100res = 30 musketeers per minute.
Nation B: 30 musketeers per minute times 100res per musketeer = 3000 res per minute
3000 divided by 2000 = 50% more resources needed just to have the same army strength.

This example is quite far off reality but it shows you the impact of having cost efficient units. So its the resources (income, crates, trickles etc) * cost effectiveness (units, upgrades)+ free army that matters
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:You''re absolutely convinced Russians are able to maintain dual infantry and cavalry production by the time the British are first able to maintain dual infantry and single cavalry production. Am I reading that correctly? Considering how quickly units train in batches that would require not only a good enough economy to produce more cycles concurrently, but to additionally spend more resources per time on units...
The thing is that you use 700 w 700g 600w/600g to fuel your production while you''re also upping the tp line and you have steel traps. So ye you have enough res income at one point.
Perhaps not constant 2-2 production but something like mixed 2-0,2-1, 2-2 is certainly possible. Brits struggle to make full batches out of 3 buildings anyway vs Russia.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by mnogud »

zoom wrote:
mnogud wrote:and dont even think you countered others... u are just blinded by the idea that your always right...
More unsupported personal attacks. Stay classy kid. The only thing Im "blinded" by is the idea that I, entirely unlike you, provide logical arguments when making a point.

Pro tip: Try to counter my arguments with logic instead of making personal attacks because Im disagreeing with Garja.
First of all i gave you all the reasons why india eco>'= jap eco with shrines with proper aoe3 gameplay logic before moving on to what you call personal attack.
Secondly it is not a pro tip when it comes from someone like you (You can take this as a personal attack, for all I care :) )
And lastly I agree you provide logical arguments but they are not correct many a times. None of the PROS like Garja agree with your shit and yet you argue like you are more experienced than them even though you are a fly in front of them. Your arguments, which you proudly call logical are solely based on how you play the game with probably people of your level or based on how you would play that civ. GG :)

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