Strongest civ in the late colonial

Strongest Civ in late colonial

India
30
37%
Japan
26
32%
Iroquois
4
5%
Russia
5
6%
French (After early skirms)
3
4%
British
10
12%
Ottomons
4
5%
 
Total votes: 82

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New Zealand zoom
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Oh they are, absolutely! Its just that a scenario where Aztec does no damage to the British economy (as presumed for the purpose of this entire discussion) is not the right circumstances. The right circumstances involve doing irrecoverable damage (relatively speaking) within about twelve minutes into the game.
Nope, its actually brits that have to push out or they just autolose in the long run.
Weve already established that, but again its irrelevant in any other case than NR NF 25+ because British push and auto-win after about twelve minutes unless the Aztec punishes them before that. After the Aztecs early Colonial Age window expires the British are so far ahead in economy the game is over if they push before minute 20, their units on level footing.

You know full well to aggressively contain or attack a British player in early Colonial, so please stop pretending otherwise. No decent Aztec player will just do nothing against a British player in early Colonial.

If you were to claim that Aztec do well against British in a serious game where the Aztec did palpable damage within the first twelve minutes I would agree entirely. In any other scenario in between that and Colonial Age full-eco with all shipments sent Id have to disagree entirely.
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New Zealand zoom
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

method wrote:
zoom wrote:Youre actually right! Taking into account Fertility Dance which one certainly should do with regards to later Colonial, they should be able to more or less rival the British. In any realistic setting however they will have long lost the game if they remain in Colonial to such a point for the reasons mentioned. I should definitely not have said that under the given conditions of my post (my interpretation of this poll since its idiotic to ask in such a way as has been done without definitions). Then again if we were to discuss the theoretical setting in which all civilizations have reached their Colonial Age economical peak, they would do far worse against certain civilizations.

I suppose in NR40 No Fortress Age they would be one of the better civilizations...
ofc he is right, he is garja, Bur you my friend, you are just a nob
He is right about this particular thing, yes. Also, he is Garja' Im glad youve noticed, kid! I dont know that Im a nob although I would call myself a bad player.
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New Zealand zoom
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

garja wrote:
zoom wrote:CIR is a very important mention indeed. I still dont see how the Russian economy is superior though. Are you talking about units being more cost efficient?
Yep unit efficiency is one reason (same thing for aztecs btw but even more). The second one is that Russia eco isnt bad at all. Steel traps and possibly tp line. Also they catch up in vill count later on. They also get amalgamation more easily (and they get more use out of it). Third and probably most important reason is that they last longer on natural resources because of the first point and because they also have map control.
I never said Russians Colonial Age full economy is bad' I said and am still saying I dont see how it is by any means superior to the British, and your above points have little to nothing to do with Colonial Age full economy, although they certainly help a lot before that point.
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Post by zoom »

mnogud wrote:
zoom wrote:I fail to see how Indians stand so much as the slightest fraction of a chance against Japanese or Iroquois in half or full-eco Colonial with all Discovery and Colonial shipments sent. Could you please explain to me how you dont fail to do the same?

Also, indeed ?? that is why this poll is so flawed to begin with. Apart from the spelling of Ottomans. I do rather appreciate the correct (in terms of consistency with the actual game) term for the Turkish civilization...
india eco matches japan+ cav upgrades+ fortress unit compostion.... The mobility makes them very strong
Indians economy does not even come close to matching the Japaneses, and while Camel Attack and their Colonial Age unit-composition are both fantastic it isnt enough compared to late Colonial Age Yumi with the Japanese economy, and outside of Camels being faster than other cavalry they have a mobility disadvantage rather than an advantage.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by miloslav »

@zoom: dude wtf? stop walking in circles...
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

miloslav wrote:@zoom: dude wtf? stop walking in circles...
You have no idea how I''d love to but arguments I have already countered keep reappearing without countering mine.
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Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
garja wrote:Nope, its actually brits that have to push out or they just autolose in the long run.
Weve already established that, but again its irrelevant in any other case than NR NF 25+ because British push and auto-win after about twelve minutes unless the Aztec punishes them before that. After the Aztecs early Colonial Age window expires the British are so far ahead in economy the game is over if they push before minute 20, their units on level footing.

You know full well to aggressively contain or attack a British player in early Colonial, so please stop pretending otherwise. No decent Aztec player will just do nothing against a British player in early Colonial.

If you were to claim that Aztec do well against British in a serious game where the Aztec did palpable damage within the first twelve minutes I would agree entirely. In any other scenario in between that and Colonial Age full-eco with all shipments sent Id have to disagree entirely.
I dont think you understand the point of the topic.. The question is what civ would have the strongest late colonial, assuming they got there relatively unhurt. The position in which they get there in what match up is not really part of the question imo. Then the question wouldve been "whats the best civ if you arent allowed to go age 3"
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

I don't think you've read all my posts in this topic. I have long since agreed with Garja that Aztec are in that case competitive and possibly even favored against British' I have been disagreeing with Garja who has been claiming that Aztec are favored in an actual game where the Aztec player does not damage the British player in early-mid Colonial.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by mnogud »

zoom wrote:
mnogud wrote:india eco matches japan+ cav upgrades+ fortress unit compostion.... The mobility makes them very strong
Indians economy does not even come close to matching the Japaneses, and while Camel Attack and their Colonial Age unit-composition are both fantastic it isnt enough compared to late Colonial Age Yumi with the Japanese economy, and outside of Camels being faster than other cavalry they have a mobility disadvantage rather than an advantage.
huh really XD ? first of all japan gathers from berries not hunts so its slower which is about 0.2 or 0.3 per villager. Secondly india has a 7 villager wood trickle. Thirdly in villager count japan gets 8 vils through shipment and india get 4 from consulate, plus the fact that every card grants a vil means their villager count rises faster.... and both japan and india do all eco upgrades fairly easily @garja @umeu correct me if i am wrong
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Post by mnogud »

zoom wrote:
miloslav wrote:@zoom: dude wtf? stop walking in circles...
You have no idea how Id love to but arguments I have already countered keep reappearing without countering mine.
and dont even think you countered others... u are just blinded by the idea that your always right...
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Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:I don''t think you''ve read all my posts in this topic. I have long since agreed with Garja that Aztec are in that case competitive and possibly even favored against British' I have been disagreeing with Garja who has been claiming that Aztec are favored in an actual game where the Aztec player does not damage the British player in early-mid Colonial.
My bad, I scanned the post a little and got confused by some of Umeu''s posts claiming the opposite and then everything on that page looked like you didn''t understand the topic.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
garja wrote:Yep unit efficiency is one reason (same thing for aztecs btw but even more). The second one is that Russia eco isnt bad at all. Steel traps and possibly tp line. Also they catch up in vill count later on. They also get amalgamation more easily (and they get more use out of it). Third and probably most important reason is that they last longer on natural resources because of the first point and because they also have map control.
I never said Russians Colonial Age full economy is bad' I said and am still saying I dont see how it is by any means superior to the British, and your above points have little to nothing to do with Colonial Age full economy, although they certainly help a lot before that point.
By thetime brits is spamming from 2 raxes and 1 stable, Russia is spamming from 2bh and 2 stables, thats superior eco. Res line doesnt mean that much if the other units are way more cost effective.

Also India maxed colonial eco is even stronger than japanese one. The eco (or the units) is not what win games for Japan in that MU.

And we are not discussing about colonial age full economy anymore really, as there isnt even a point that defines it (technically it should be at 99 vills with all market ups and cards, which means all euro civs have roughly same eco).
We are rather talking of how civ realistically scale in late colonial.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by mnogud »

garja wrote:
zoom wrote:I never said Russians Colonial Age full economy is bad' I said and am still saying I dont see how it is by any means superior to the British, and your above points have little to nothing to do with Colonial Age full economy, although they certainly help a lot before that point.
By thetime brits is spamming from 2 raxes and 1 stable, Russia is spamming from 2bh and 2 stables, thats superior eco. Res line doesnt mean that much if the other units are way more cost effective.

Also India maxed colonial eco is even stronger than japanese one. The eco (or the units) is not what win games for Japan in that MU.

And we are not discussing about colonial age full economy anymore really, as there isnt even a point that defines it (technically it should be at 99 vills with all market ups and cards, which means all euro civs have roughly same eco).
We are rather talking of how civ realistically scale in late colonial.
i think late colonial can be considered from the 15th minute
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Post by _venox_ »

mnogud wrote:
zoom wrote:You have no idea how Id love to but arguments I have already countered keep reappearing without countering mine.
and dont even think you countered others... u are just blinded by the idea that your always right...
+1
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Post by macacoalbino »

mnogud wrote:
zoom wrote:Indians economy does not even come close to matching the Japaneses, and while Camel Attack and their Colonial Age unit-composition are both fantastic it isnt enough compared to late Colonial Age Yumi with the Japanese economy, and outside of Camels being faster than other cavalry they have a mobility disadvantage rather than an advantage.
huh really XD ? first of all japan gathers from berries not hunts so its slower which is about 0.2 or 0.3 per villager. Secondly india has a 7 villager wood trickle. Thirdly in villager count japan gets 8 vils through shipment and india get 4 from consulate, plus the fact that every card grants a vil means their villager count rises faster.... and both japan and india do all eco upgrades fairly easily @garja @umeu correct me if i am wrong?

?


Good points there, but should we consider that japs dont rely on natural res for so long that this may switch things in favor of them? Or you assume mill transition already?
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Post by Hazza54321 »

yeah india has better eco than japan especially if they destroy shrines,
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Post by zoom »

hazza54321 wrote:yeah india has better eco than japan especially if they destroy shrines,
Only if they destroy Shrines. Assuming Shrines with gatherers Japanese economy is better by far.
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Post by zoom »

mnogud wrote:
zoom wrote:Indians economy does not even come close to matching the Japaneses, and while Camel Attack and their Colonial Age unit-composition are both fantastic it isnt enough compared to late Colonial Age Yumi with the Japanese economy, and outside of Camels being faster than other cavalry they have a mobility disadvantage rather than an advantage.
huh really XD ? first of all japan gathers from berries not hunts so its slower which is about 0.2 or 0.3 per villager. Secondly india has a 7 villager wood trickle. Thirdly in villager count japan gets 8 vils through shipment and india get 4 from consulate, plus the fact that every card grants a vil means their villager count rises faster.... and both japan and india do all eco upgrades fairly easily @garja @umeu correct me if i am wrong

Everything you said above is perfectly correct (apart from the trickles actually being 6.25 vills in total)' It just isnt enough to make their economy better than a Japanese player whose Shrines have gatherers.
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Strongest civ in the late colonial

Post by zoom »

mnogud wrote:
zoom wrote:You have no idea how Id love to but arguments I have already countered keep reappearing without countering mine.
and dont even think you countered others... u are just blinded by the idea that your always right...
More unsupported personal attacks. Stay classy kid. The only thing Im "blinded" by is the idea that I, entirely unlike you, provide logical arguments when making a point.

Pro tip: Try to counter my arguments with logic instead of making personal attacks because Im disagreeing with Garja.
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Post by _venox_ »

if you say India has a 7 villager wood trickle you need to take into consideration that Indian villagers gather 20% faster than Japanese villagers too' also the trickle doesn't get upgraded when japan's villagers do get upgraded, making it worth less than 7 villagers trickle. To be fair both trickles together are 7.2 villagers and each shipment gets 2 villagers anyways, so those 2 cards are 9.2. But saying India gets +1 villager each shipment AND saying that the big trickle is worth 7 villagers means you counted one villager for both advantages. Also Japan gathers from berries only 0.17 villager seconds slower and has shrines worth 20 villagers + and infinite resources. I would say both are about equal but with ashigaru raids and the well defended Japanese villagers it's in japans favor.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

well shrines are vulnerable(efficient ones), india get a vill with each shipment, 4 vill from cons, 7 vill worth of wood tricles, french consulate, karni mata(optional), they tend to get their market ups earlier.
And depends how late but japs can only get 75vills whist india gets 103
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Post by _venox_ »

have you seen jap shrines with the industrial upgrade??
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Post by momuuu »

It probably depends on how you define late colonial tbh. I do think Japan has the ability to stay on berries longer than india stays on hunts though, but I'm not sure of this. Also, wouldn't a Japan army generally be stronger with a Daimyo and the ashi + yumi upgrades and the Japan consulate?

In terms of eco I honestly have no idea who would be ahead. I'd personally define late colonial starting from like, the 15-20th minute, so the 75 vill limit probably isn't really an issue yet. Not really sure if India generally has a better eco than Japan or if it is the other way around.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

venox wrote:have you seen jap shrines with the industrial upgrade??
late colonial?
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Post by _venox_ »

hazza54321 wrote:well shrines are vulnerable(efficient ones), india get a vill with each shipment, 4 vill from cons, 7 vill worth of wood tricles, french consulate, karni mata(optional), they tend to get their market ups earlier.
And depends how late but japs can only get 75vills whist india gets 103
Late colonial reaching 103 villagers? What about trickles not being upgraded or you discounting japan''s shrines? About the french allies I''m sure every India player will stick to the British.
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