Misusing cards: unit cards and not saving up cards

[a passing slimey]

in general, one thing I noticed often happening even between the pr30+ guys is that people often times send "wrong cards" (as in not as effective as another card choice) based on two biased views:

Unit cards mandatorily being the choice when attacking (and often also just sending it just for the sake of it) and leaving cards on the stock being the worst sin you can commit. First lets begin with the unit cards. I would like to summarize the occasions sending an unit card is wrong and talk about saving up cards before aging up.

There are pretty much only three possible scenarios that sending unit cards when people usually would is the wrong choiche:

1.when sending a crate card would have been a better choice because delaying your attack for just a bit wont matter anyway. Sending cards also use up pop, which sometimes can mess up your timing because of lack of pop space, making the card lose a lot of value.

2. when investing in the long term is the safer choice because the tides are too stable and equal for both sides. Those would be the times you just send units because your mind is too focused on playing aggressive even though you are on a stalemate, mostly raiding and still fighting in the middle, or perhaps even just each players sitting with their units doing nothing. Yes, it is possible to send units in those cases and actually get to make good use of them. even so, the likelihood of you getting to win a battle with a good enough trade surpassing the advantage you would get by just investing is not so much. This scenario happens more often in team games rather than 1v1s. In team games, reinforcements happen fast and battles are larger in scale, making little reinforcements for battles in the middle of the map not so relevant. It takes longer for everyone to be all ready for war at the same time due to the cordination required when playing in team, giving more time for the long term to pay off, and battles are much more spread around, making it harder for there to be a battle possible of being won decisively. Even if you win one battle, the game is still in stalemate and the ones to go long term win.That is not so much the case in 1v1s because it happens more often than enough that the game gets in just one decisive battle. Because of that, there will be times sending extra units is actually the safer choice, and one that gives you the opportunity to simply win the game in one sweep. There will still be times going eco is better and safer too tho; recognizing which of the two is the case is ability.

3.when you already have already killed most/all your opponent's army and just want to idle villagers, without having any real possibility of sieging down the town center before the opponent would be able to get back on his feet. The extra siege you would get from the unit card would give you perhaps an extra house sieged down, which isnt worth at all compared to a long term investment. Extra units dont matter either if you already have an ocerwhelming number advantage.

4.the opponent wont engage head-on because you have cannons, which in that case investing in eco cards or upgrade cards would be better since your units would be sitting doing nothing for quite a while. by the time you engaged, at worst you would be short by a few units in strength in a battle of 50+ units that micro matters more so that little advantages in numbers, and at best, you would have even more units either because of the eco, or because the units upgrade paid off. In case you lose the battle, escaping is not that much of an issue since you would be on the offensive in that case, away from your gathering vills.

On the other hand, there is an occasion sending unit cards is almost always the correct choice. Of course, it is when you are defending.

Like the saying goes, eco when you need units in 5~7+ mins, crate when you need units in 1~1.5 minutes, and unit shipments when you need the units now. The times you are defending are almost always ones your opponent has the advantage in army, and thus decided to attack you. Instantly getting reinforcements is greatly useful in that situation. Those are the situations unit cards see their most use. With that said, if the opponent is not only ahead in army, but also greatly ahead in economy, perhaps risking going for the long term might be the choice that gives you the most chances of winning.


Now i will be just throwing a little rant on saving up cards.

Actually, the reason i wrote all this was becuase of the saving cards stuff. The unit card was more of an extra since both come from biases of the era people still fought jap mirrors with mass ashis. I wanted to write this because i recently saw a video in which the player was doing a british turtle water lame, and some time before he went to the third age, he freaking sent 6 longbows... No, he wasnt in any danger. He was safely behind walls and have a good mass of longbows. It was then that i remembered that people actually do that. People send cards that arent going to be useful for them just because of the fear of having a card on the stock. Ive seen people sending a card and clicking the fast age up just a little afterward. ive even seen once one guy sending a mill upgrade even though there was still plenty hunts. Heck, just save up the card and wait to see whether you will age up or get a mill first.

Thats all i have to say ^^

[sebnan12]

10/10 for everyone who reads the whole thing

[deleted_user0]

saving a card can be useful when you expect to age up soon or are waiting for coin/food to be able to pay for the shipment. otherwise its not really.

one trick to do is when you are about to age or you are aging and you arent sure wether or not you need some units to help you defend, you send the unit shipment and then cancel it when its about half to 3/4th sent, and then you repeat it. if someone comes to attack, you just send the shipment, if not, you cancel it. its a trick that has helped me defend in situations quite a few times, where it wouldve come to late to be of use if i shipped it only when i saw the attack. however, it can also backfire, which happened to me at times, because you forget to cancel the shipment XD

[Victor_swe]

saving a card can be useful when you expect to age up soon or are waiting for coin/food to be able to pay for the shipment. otherwise its not really.

one trick to do is when you are about to age or you are aging and you arent sure wether or not you need some units to help you defend, you send the unit shipment and then cancel it when its about half to 3/4th sent, and then you repeat it. if someone comes to attack, you just send the shipment, if not, you cancel it. its a trick that has helped me defend in situations quite a few times, where it wouldve come to late to be of use if i shipped it only when i saw the attack. however, it can also backfire, which happened to me at times, because you forget to cancel the shipment XD

I always did this with the explorercards in age I on some maps. Just for The 1% chanse ur in an Explorer fight u will barely win as The shipment arrives. lol.

[momuuu]

And the 50% chance you forget to cancel the shipment.

I have come to conclude almost all eco cards are just really poor in practise so fuck those you know. Unit shipments all the way.

[deleted_user0]

in 1v1 probably, its vils crates unit shipments and unit upgrades. in team eco upgrades are definitely worth it.

[momuuu]

in 1v1 probably, its vils crates unit shipments and unit upgrades. in team eco upgrades are definitely worth it.

I honestly think refrigeration and royal mint are way overrated in 1v1. By the time those shipmenta could theoretically be viable, hunts and mines are running out which results in a very scrappy state of the game. I think resource crates, even colonial unit shipments (refer to me vs gua game 2 where I think I correctly shipped 13 strelets instead of an eco card), maybe even landgrab (which is potentially very underrated) are much better.

[deleted_user0]

sure they wont be useful in most 1v1's, but there will be a few that go long where it will make a difference, and you will wish you had those cards. that said, with most civs i wont have such a card in my deck, mostly because an age3 slot is too valuable. landgrab is definitely not overrated, its just not so good.

[momuuu]

Theres very few match ups where the game goes long enough for eco cards tbh. Some civs have very few unit upgrades and spare slots or tend to go lategame (ports has all three of those) so the cards become better. I feel like theyre way overrated right now. As brits for example Id feel like 8 longbow could be better than royal mint.

These scenarios are rough. Its talking about a few percent of games.

[a passing slimey]

Its not really a few percent of the games though... Only the second one, which i noted that was mostly for team games. The crate rather than unit scenario, the one of sending units when you are just idling him up but cant really do damage and the one you will just camp with cannons for 3 mins without using your units before getting to fight happens a lot really.

Besides, It doesnt need to be an eco card or upgrade card either. Sending 1000 wood or 1000 coin instead when you are just idling or camping is way better than sending units.

[deleted_user0]

Theres very few match ups where the game goes long enough for eco cards tbh. Some civs have very few unit upgrades and spare slots or tend to go lategame (ports has all three of those) so the cards become better. I feel like theyre way overrated right now. As brits for example Id feel like 8 longbow could be better than royal mint.

These scenarios are rough. Its talking about a few percent of games.

Not sure why you say overrated though, cause i don't see them being used that much. Most 1v1 plAyers don't even have it in their decks

[Garja]

Theres very few match ups where the game goes long enough for eco cards tbh. Some civs have very few unit upgrades and spare slots or tend to go lategame (ports has all three of those) so the cards become better. I feel like theyre way overrated right now. As brits for example Id feel like 8 longbow could be better than royal mint.

These scenarios are rough. Its talking about a few percent of games.

Hell no. And not even because 8 lbows is a poor value card (it is not in fact) but because there isnt really a situation in which such card contributes to win a game. You simply dont want to be in a situation where 8 units can swing the tides of a game. If that's the case you simply made a mistake. Royal mint (perhaps more for other civs than brits) is simply a must-have for games that reach mine depletion.

[deleted_user0]

longbow is also a unit you should always be able to produce, so i'd rather add 4 huss. but garja is right, at that point cards also become rather scarce, so you want to send something with a lasting effect preferably

[abbadan]

Idk. As China, I find it's always good to have a card or 2 ready to fly when i hit age 3. There are many useful age 2 cards, but the age 3 cards are what makes China strong. Unless i have an immediate need of it, why not hold it til I age?

[forgrin]

Idk. As China, I find it's always good to have a card or 2 ready to fly when i hit age 3. There are many useful age 2 cards, but the age 3 cards are what makes China strong. Unless i have an immediate need of it, why not hold it til I age?

Well, China is a weird example because you kinda need 700c to age early enough in most MUs, and you arguably need 700w so you can get infastructure out on time so it doesn't just die to a timing. And yes, typically you'd hold a card for age 3 besides these unless you're getting rushed and you need the shipment.

[pecelot]

I feel like the OP refers to actions that are commonly rather frowned upon in the community. I don't really like such an attitude, especially in politics-related discussions — picking simplistic and usually illogical arguments of the other side as representative for their cause in order to gloriously depreciate them. 

1.when sending a crate card would have been a better choice because delaying your attack for just a bit wont matter anyway. Sending cards also use up pop, which sometimes can mess up your timing because of lack of pop space, making the card lose a lot of value.

Usually delaying your attack is not a good idea, as you opt for a timing push when your army seems to be the strongest while your opponent's one — the weakest, or at least weaker enough than yours. If you wait for too long, the discrepancy may blur and your assault may not be as effective. Additionally, PR30+ players, as you called them up, usually have no such problems with housing and don't mess up their builds entirely by queuing a unit shipment.

2. when investing in the long term is the safer choice because the tides are too stable and equal for both sides. Those would be the times you just send units because your mind is too focused on playing aggressive even though you are on a stalemate, mostly raiding and still fighting in the middle, or perhaps even just each players sitting with their units doing nothing. Yes, it is possible to send units in those cases and actually get to make good use of them. even so, the likelihood of you getting to win a battle with a good enough trade surpassing the advantage you would get by just investing is not so much. This scenario happens more often in team games rather than 1v1s. In team games, reinforcements happen fast and battles are larger in scale, making little reinforcements for battles in the middle of the map not so relevant. It takes longer for everyone to be all ready for war at the same time due to the cordination required when playing in team, giving more time for the long term to pay off, and battles are much more spread around, making it harder for there to be a battle possible of being won decisively. Even if you win one battle, the game is still in stalemate and the ones to go long term win.That is not so much the case in 1v1s because it happens more often than enough that the game gets in just one decisive battle. Because of that, there will be times sending extra units is actually the safer choice, and one that gives you the opportunity to simply win the game in one sweep. There will still be times going eco is better and safer too tho; recognizing which of the two is the case is ability.

Sure, you have the point, though in team games it's a rather known habit not to send military from your home city unless it's desperately needed or it's something game-changing, like 2 falconets, I'd assume. This game mode is more eco-focused due to maps being larger, a bigger number of players, naturally, and some other rather obvious factors.

3.when you already have already killed most/all your opponent's army and just want to idle villagers, without having any real possibility of sieging down the town center before the opponent would be able to get back on his feet. The extra siege you would get from the unit card would give you perhaps an extra house sieged down, which isnt worth at all compared to a long term investment. Extra units dont matter either if you already have an ocerwhelming number advantage.

I guess such cases are pretty situational as it's hard to make a general rule of thumb to each of such moments. Still, however, I'd claim it's arguable — sometimes you really need a couple more units to finish off your enemy, but I heard others' voices about a low-risk approach and increasing the lead by booming behind it. An adequate analogy can be something like an Iroquois big-button rush, which ideally idles your opponent's vills for a very long time and makes him lose some, too. After initial aggression your advantage is so uncontested that you can either age up behind it, as your enemy will have no means to follow you up any time soon, or just kill him „more", though then presumably you risk being caught with some crazy defence play like a CM pop.

4.the opponent wont engage head-on because you have cannons, which in that case investing in eco cards or upgrade cards would be better since your units would be sitting doing nothing for quite a while. by the time you engaged, at worst you would be short by a few units in strength in a battle of 50+ units that micro matters more so that little advantages in numbers, and at best, you would have even more units either because of the eco, or because the units upgrade paid off. In case you lose the battle, escaping is not that much of an issue since you would be on the offensive in that case, away from your gathering vills.

I don't think I have ever been in a situation when I shipped cannons just to not do anything with them. You either push almost immediately, trying to put your opponent on the clock, or defend against his artillery. Team games I referred to above, in 1v1s, however, just a few additional units may actually swing battles. Think about the almighty Black-Watch-FF strategy for the British. On paper it doesn't seem that bad, 8 Highlanders with 2 falconets are certainly a good combo, though in reality you just can't body-block and protect your cannons from cavalry with only 8 units. Even something „trash", like getting 10 pikes immediately, would vastly improve this build.

Like the saying goes, eco when you need units in 5~7+ mins, crate when you need units in 1~1.5 minutes, and unit shipments when you need the units now.

General rule of thumb for card shipments is send villagers if you need resources in 5+ mins, crates if you need them in 1+ min, units if you need in 0 mins.

Overall, I think you do have a point, but worded it rather poorly. It is what I believe @Kaiserklein was on about recently, when he claimed that players sent unit shipments too frequently and then not used them. I've been caught on doing so, too, though I still think that in early Fortress cards like 8 & 7 skirms are necessary to remain competitive in the fight for map control and presence.

in 1v1 probably, its vils crates unit shipments and unit upgrades. in team eco upgrades are definitely worth it.

I honestly think refrigeration and royal mint are way overrated in 1v1. By the time those shipmenta could theoretically be viable, hunts and mines are running out which results in a very scrappy state of the game. I think resource crates, even colonial unit shipments (refer to me vs gua game 2 where I think I correctly shipped 13 strelets instead of an eco card), maybe even landgrab (which is potentially very underrated) are much better.

We had that discussion some time ago on Discord I believe, and I do agree. I rarely encounter occasions in which I'd be in a proper position to send either Refrigeration or Royal Mint, unless the game goes to the Industrial Age, which happens like once in 20 games perhaps. Even then you always get 2 factories to send and usually heavy cannons or something like Genitours. However, instead of 8 longbowmen you opted for in the other post, I'd much rather choose 1000 food — it's a card that I would say is underrated, amongst all those suggested contestants for the „the most underrated card" competition. When hunts run out, it may really fuel your production in case of emergency, in which you may oftentimes find yourself. I need to experiment more with 1000/1000/1000 shipments

Theres very few match ups where the game goes long enough for eco cards tbh. Some civs have very few unit upgrades and spare slots or tend to go lategame (ports has all three of those) so the cards become better. I feel like theyre way overrated right now. As brits for example Id feel like 8 longbow could be better than royal mint.

These scenarios are rough. Its talking about a few percent of games.

Not sure why you say overrated though, cause i don't see them being used that much. Most 1v1 plAyers don't even have it in their decks

Again, I think Kaiser is the main supporter of it and uses it frequently — I also recall it being in many other decks of different players, too Like I highly doubt you'll find 1000 food over Refrigeration in a „standard" French deck.

[deleted_user0]

well 1000f is going to be more useless. this situation where the game goes so scrappy that you fight till all res runs out may happen a bit more frequently then the situation where you survive the former and move to a farm eco, but really, both situations don't happen alot at all. and of the two, 1000f is really going to be the card that makes the least difference. really you should look ahead, and when you feel like hunts/mines are running out, you fall back and age up to get 2 factories as a euro civ. twc civs dont have royal mint or refrig, so its not really relevant. and same is pretty much true for the asian civs, and also they have a cheaper transition for various reasons.

[Garja]

Eco ups matter if you do things properly, like gradually teching wood ups as well for arsenal techs / mill switch / TPs / TCs.
Thing is most players in 1v1 just park on the classic 45:5:40 vill allocation for the whole game then lose a battle and call gg. And maybe they were the ones that decided to attack because they knew they would lose in the long run. You can't play always that way, that's why you need some eco ups.

[pecelot]

Perhaps, though I often found myself in situations when I had like 2 mills and not a good card to be sent — it's rather early for refrigeration, I'm pretty sure it won't pay off in time, and my opponent is still pressuring me 1000 food I would find then an interesting option

[Kaiserklein]

The point of refrigeration and royal mint is that usually when you shipped 8 cards in age 3 it's really late game and shipping 7 skirms, for example, is not really good. Basically the more vils you have, the less units and crates are worth (since you can gather res and mass fast anyway without those) and the better upgrades get (because they affect more units/more vils). So with civs like france, ports, dutch, brits, among others, I really don't see the point of a deck full of units in age 3.
Only with civs that aim at winning in early/mid age 3 only, I would consider cutting those upgrades, like with ger spain otto... Because with those civs you rely mostly on military shipments and not on eco, and your late game is not good, so I guess it's better to keep fueling your mass with units. Also germany got so many good units shipments when you include mercs, if you put royal mint and/or refrigeration I feel like you miss cards in some cases.

[deleted_user0]

Eco ups matter if you do things properly, like gradually teching wood ups as well for arsenal techs / mill switch / TPs / TCs.
Thing is most players in 1v1 just park on the classic 45:5:40 vill allocation for the whole game then lose a battle and call gg. And maybe they were the ones that decided to attack because they knew they would lose in the long run. You can't play always that way, that's why you need some eco ups.

classic garja, just misses 10 vils idle somewhere, thats why he loses so many games he shouldve won :O

[Garja]

Spain has decent mid-late game so you don't mind having 3 eco ups (eco theory + 2 in colo or fortress). Germany has more meaningful unit shipments + mercs + good colo unit cards so ye it's harder to find a spot. Also as Germans you pretty much always run out of gold earlier than food and the plantation switch is just akward, especially before a 2nd or 3rd TC. Also you don't have buffer units because all units cost a lot ( unlike spain for example, think about rods vs dopps). I guess the buffer is provided by free ulhans but you're restricted on cav and also shipment rate is low at that point.
Anyway refrigeration pays off rather quickly in the game. Especially when you drop extra TCs it is very comfy.

classic garja, just misses 10 vils idle somewhere, thats why he loses so many games he shouldve won :O

On a serious note I lose most of my games just because I'm too lazy/bored to do things properly.

[pecelot]

The point of refrigeration and royal mint is that usually when you shipped 8 cards in age 3 it's really late game and shipping 7 skirms, for example, is not really good. Basically the more vils you have, the less units and crates are worth (since you can gather res and mass fast anyway without those) and the better upgrades get (because they affect more units/more vils). So with civs like france, ports, dutch, brits, among others, I really don't see the point of a deck full of units in age 3.

I think by that time you would already ship 7 skirms, my point was more about shipments like 1000 coin (think Brits) or 1000 food. I get what you're saying, though I'd still be willing to try resource crates first