How are the matches decided in the tournament?

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No Flag Jaeger
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by Jaeger »

I know the matchs are decided by elo, but how exactly do you do it? Do you put highest elo vs lowest elo, second highest vs second lowest, etc, or do you do it some other way? Im curious to know what PR im gonna fight vs with my elo.
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Tuvalu gibson
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by gibson »

The way a traditional tourney is done is that the participants are divided into four groups. The highest person in the first group, second highest in the second group, third highest in the third group, fourth highest in the fourth group, fifth highest in the first group etc. This insures that the top players won't meet to early. Next, each person is reseeded within their group, so the number 1 2 3 and 4 players all become one seeds in their group. the 5 6 7 and 8 all become the 2 seeds etc. And after that it does go high was low, second high vs second low etc. Within each group it is arranged so that the top players in each group won't meet til the end. So in a 8 player group, the winner of the 1v8 game plays the winner of the 4v5 game. The winner of the 2v7 game plays the winner of the 3v6 game. If the higher seed always wins, this insures that the two top players won't meet til the finals of their group. I assume this is the way the tourney will go, although I really am not sure. It would make the most sense though.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by SoldieR »

google NCAA tournament bracket. That is standard. it goes top vs bot and works its way inward.

#1 vs #256 , #2 vs #255 etc
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by gibson »

iamsoldier wrote:google NCAA tournament bracket. That is standard. it goes top vs bot and works its way inward.

#1 vs #256 , #2 vs #255 etc
Thats not how the ncaa tourney works though. It works as I described with all the players being divided into four groups and then playing top vs bottom within the group.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Maybe it'd be more fair if you made 4 groups by ELO rating, then make the players from group 1 play against group 2 and group 3 (50/50) and the players from group 4 play against group 2 and 3 in a 50/50 ratio aswell. That way we wont have to watch low ranked people get smashed by hardcore players.. I dont really think that's fun for either of them.

But it's probably too late to change anything about the rules.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by _H2O »

NCAA does use the same method they just have multiple 1 seeds. This is because of the regional nature of things.

http://math.stackexchange.com/questions ... er-formula

This is what you are looking for. It is quite complicated, but we will seed using standard bracket methodology.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by momuuu »

h2o wrote:NCAA does use the same method they just have multiple 1 seeds. This is because of the regional nature of things.

http://math.stackexchange.com/questions ... er-formula

This is what you are looking for. It is quite complicated, but we will seed using standard bracket methodology.

That''s basically a calculation for a bracket where the highest elo rankings will get the furthest in the tournment right (assuming that a higher ELO player always wins it''s game).

Don''t you think it kinda sucks for the lower and medium skilled players to have to play OP guys like yourself?
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by _H2O »

Last time we did group stages. It was complicated and difficult to manage. It was only one game per person too. We had enough signups for a 128 tournament and it took an extra week because of group stages.

This time we wanted to do 256 open bracket since it would take the same amount of time and would be more simple. I am not convinced that a low level guy is going to get more gg's by playing best of ones in a group stage where one of the medium guys is inactive.

That being said we are investigating a way to actually solve the problem by making it more exciting to be in the event as a lower level player. This was the first time we allowed open signups and there was more demand than we expected.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by gibson »

jerom wrote:
h2o wrote:NCAA does use the same method they just have multiple 1 seeds. This is because of the regional nature of things.

http://math.stackexchange.com/questions ... er-formula

This is what you are looking for. It is quite complicated, but we will seed using standard bracket methodology.

Thats basically a calculation for a bracket where the highest elo rankings will get the furthest in the tournment right (assuming that a higher ELO player always wins its game).

Dont you think it kinda sucks for the lower and medium skilled players to have to play OP guys like yourself?
It does suck that low level players have to play high level players. But thats just what you get when you try to include everybody, which is important for building the community. However, you shouldnt reward sucky players for being sucky by letting them play other sucky players, as this punishes higher level players because they have to play other high level players instead. Then the sucky players play the high level players and loose anyway.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by Jaeger »

h2o wrote:NCAA does use the same method they just have multiple 1 seeds. This is because of the regional nature of things.

http://math.stackexchange.com/questions ... er-formula

This is what you are looking for. It is quite complicated, but we will seed using standard bracket methodology.

Thanks, and glad to see someone else who knows about the stackexchange websites haha, they are not nearly as popular as they should be for how amazing they are
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:
jerom wrote:Thats basically a calculation for a bracket where the highest elo rankings will get the furthest in the tournment right (assuming that a higher ELO player always wins its game).?

Dont you think it kinda sucks for the lower and medium skilled players to have to play OP guys like yourself?
It does suck that low level players have to play high level players. But thats just what you get when you try to include everybody, which is important for building the community. ?However, you shouldnt reward sucky players for being sucky by letting them play other sucky players, as this punishes higher level players because they have to play other high level players instead. ?Then the sucky players play the high level players and loose anyway. ?


True, but you can do some half solution.. Like letting tier 1 players face tier 3 players and tief 2 players face tier 4 players..

Maybe itd be better to make it so that top 16 players can get to the ro16 without facing eahhother, and just make the rest random. That way a mediocre player still has a chance to advance a round or two.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by deleted_user0 »

U can mix seed with open like in sc2 dreamhack. Some ppl get seeded/invited (lets say 30+) the others play open brackets before and the winners get grouped in with the seeds.

Dunno about how much extra time this would take, perhaps less actually, cuz u diminish the player group in both rounds

So u get like 64 seeds and then 64 1st and 2nd from the open for the ro128. Atleast low ranked will have played some matches in the open before if they lose in the 128. And perhaps they even upset
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by _H2O »

If you want to layout a new seeding method, test it, and set it up. I would be happy to consider it as a solution.

We are looking into ways to improve the lower level experience for the next event. We weren't expecting this large of a turn out of lower rated players. The experience also wont be much different from the group stage solution we used last time as far as experience goes. There are a few promising ideas that we will look into for the next tournament that should help this situation.

The main idea on my mind is what you just said umeu.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by SoldieR »

What I think would be best is a 256-64 tourney. So 192 players, the top 64 get a bye first round

Or if over that amount of people, do play-in games like NCAA. 256+16. The bottom 16 play vs each other for the chance to then face the top 8seeds
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by gibson »

jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:It does suck that low level players have to play high level players. But thats just what you get when you try to include everybody, which is important for building the community. However, you shouldnt reward sucky players for being sucky by letting them play other sucky players, as this punishes higher level players because they have to play other high level players instead. Then the sucky players play the high level players and loose anyway.
True, but you can do some half solution.. Like letting tier 1 players face tier 3 players and tief 2 players face tier 4 players..

Maybe itd be better to make it so that top 16 players can get to the ro16 without facing eahhother, and just make the rest random. That way a mediocre player still has a chance to advance a round or two.
I do think thats a good idea. In a tourney of 256 give the top 32(the only ones who have any realistic chance of winning) the top seeds and then randomize the rest. That way some lower level players will advance while some random captian who had no chance of making it even close to the end is out a round early
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by momuuu »

The problem really is that a difference in rating by about 5 pr is generally, at least in my experience, already almost unsurmountable. When I had to play H2O I might aswell not bother, because it's basically hopeless.

I think umeu's idea is also good. As long as most people have something to actually play about, while the top players aren't going to get screwed over by having to play eachother very early on.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by zoom »

iamsoldier wrote:google NCAA tournament bracket. That is standard. it goes top vs bot and works its way inward.

#1 vs #256 , #2 vs #255 etc
Actually this method is completely idiotic to me. What should be done is having a certain number of seeded players, randomly drawing every non-seed until the draw has been filled.

Also, NCAA is full NA anyway so it is irrelevant.
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How are the matches decided in the tournament?

Post by Mirari »

How about making it random seeds with double elimination? Or just double elimination with your NCAA style seeding. So the weaker players who [strike] lose [/strike]get annihilated in round 1 can play vs other weak players to get at least a bit further in tournament. Although that's double the work again. I just don't like the thought of Stomping the new players when we really should encourage them.

When will the seeding be done btw?

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