Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

New Zealand _RNZ_
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by _RNZ_ »

Papist wrote:@queenofdestiny Cheating or not, it's not in the spirit of fair play. People expect to play against you and your skill set, not that of some coach of an unknown skill level.


Being coached isn't the same as being on the same computer. Being coached is how people get better at the game, same as everyone else.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Gendarme wrote:@Kaiserklein That is like having a coach beside you, which you do not oppose. No reason to have rules that cannot be enforced - it benefits cheaters only.

Well you have a point, but imo there's a difference between stuff happening irl and stuff happening online. Streaming a tourney game is something public, not private like me helping my girlfriend. I'm anyway next to her when she plays, because she's at my place lol... What should I do then ? Ignore that she's playing a tourney, or go out for a 1h walk, or what ? Of course I give her some advice then, it's just natural.

Garja wrote:well being coached is sort of cheating but you cant know that over internet games

Why would that be cheating ? In how many real life sport competitions do you have a coach staying close to the players and advising them ? And usually when you cheat it means you break the rules, so, what rule of esoc tourneys does this break ?

Papist wrote:@queenofdestiny Cheating or not, it's not in the spirit of fair play. People expect to play against you and your skill set, not that of some coach of an unknown skill level.

You're aware that a ton of people playing this tourney have a coach right ? They practiced some match ups, build orders, etc, usually with someone of higher skill. It's normal, it's part of every competition, and it's how you get better at the game. She was playing, so it's not like the opponent was playing against "some coach of an unknown skill level", I just gave her some advice, which is normal. Everyone can do it, and a lot of people do it, why isn't it fair play ?
Btw anyone can screenshare, or stream the tourney games (can even be done on a secret stream), and have people calling with them and giving advice, which is exactly the same.

IAmSoldieR wrote:If you are playing and someone is making decisions for you, yes you are cheating.

Same like I said above, how is that cheating ? It's not against the rules, everyone can do it, and it's part of a lot of irl competitions as well.

ProjectW wrote:I just said "if both players agree and allow the caster" so your point about cheating/maphacking is moot.

So what, you can say "ok" for someone to cast your game, without knowing that he'll actually give information to your opponent... For example he can have him muted in the call and let him listen to the commentary, or screenshare or w/e...

gibson wrote:Well if someone's casting they aren't gonna be on Skype talking with someone lol. And there's nothing about being an "authorized caster" that makes you less likely to help someone cheat anyway. It literally just has to do with whether or not you're decent at casting.

Again it's easy to give info while casting. About the authorized casters stuff, well you're supposed to have some kind of responsibility when you're an ESOC caster, and to be trusted by ESOC. Then of course, there is no way to be 100% sure that an ESOC caster won't cheat, since it's online stuff and there's no admin sitting next to him.

_RNZ_ wrote:Being coached isn't the same as being on the same computer. Being coached is how people get better at the game, same as everyone else.

Calling with someone who can see what's happening on your screen actually has exactly the same effect as what I did with queen. It just allows the coach to give advice in real time. What's the difference here ?
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by WickedCossack »

Preventing coaching is unenforceable so it's mostly an irrelevant discussion.

For arguments sake however consider that in a game of chess having someone coach a player with strategy and moves is obviously unfair as it would essentially be the coach playing.

The physical component of aoe3 is far greater than chess so it's not a fair analogy, yet it's also far less than most standard sports like football and other main stream sports you have suggested.

Basically aoe3 falls somewhere in the middle. I think the strategical component of aoe3 is too great to allow coaches though obviously not extreme as chess. It's a moot point though since as I said at the start its not enforceable.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

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Post by Gendarme »

Looks like we need to host LAN tournaments instead. Let's get the prize pool to $20,000 and make it happen.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Kaiserklein »

WickedCossack wrote:Preventing coaching is unenforceable so it's mostly an irrelevant discussion.

For arguments sake however consider that in a game of chess having someone coach a player with strategy and moves is obviously unfair as it would essentially be the coach playing.

The physical component of aoe3 is far greater than chess so it's not a fair analogy, yet it's also far less than most standard sports like football and other main stream sports you have suggested.

Basically aoe3 falls somewhere in the middle. I think the strategical component of aoe3 is too great to allow coaches though obviously not extreme as chess. It's a moot point though since as I said at the start its not enforceable.


I think the mechanics are very important in aoe3. Or then I don't understand how Queen, a lieut, lost to Eaglemut, captain or so, with pr 35+ advice. And the game she won, she would have anyway won, because it was a simple build order win (india went middle map agra + sepoys against otto jan abus = gg anyway). So I disagree that the strategical component is too great (or then she would have won) to allow a coach.
But yes anyway not much can be done.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by WickedCossack »

Kaiserklein wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Preventing coaching is unenforceable so it's mostly an irrelevant discussion.

For arguments sake however consider that in a game of chess having someone coach a player with strategy and moves is obviously unfair as it would essentially be the coach playing.

The physical component of aoe3 is far greater than chess so it's not a fair analogy, yet it's also far less than most standard sports like football and other main stream sports you have suggested.

Basically aoe3 falls somewhere in the middle. I think the strategical component of aoe3 is too great to allow coaches though obviously not extreme as chess. It's a moot point though since as I said at the start its not enforceable.


I think the mechanics are very important in aoe3. Or then I don't understand how Queen, a lieut, lost to Eaglemut, captain or so, with pr 35+ advice. And the game she won, she would have anyway won, because it was a simple build order win (india went middle map agra + sepoys against otto jan abus = gg anyway). So I disagree that the strategical component is too great (or then she would have won).
But yes anyway not much can be done.


I think mechanics are also very important too which is why I'm not particularly concerned about the actual issue, I was just more interested in the discussion. I do maintain though that the role strategy plays in aoe3 is a "level up" from traditional sports where you see a coach shouting things at players from a sideline.

I suggest you watch the h20 coaches SirCallen video where he beats _uhlan_ overcoming a significant skill difference. Perhaps Callen himself can give us some more insight.

For me it makes enough of a difference that I think if it was enforceable it would be banned.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by momuuu »

Yeah, it would probably be. But how about coaching in between games? That's really common practise.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by gibson »

At least in basketball strategy is just as important as aoe, although general strategy is ofc more basic. Iv been getting pissed and screaming at the TV lately because my favorite team isn't great on strategy and just got eliminated in the playoffs by a team with better strategy. I would argue that having someone in their ear with a TV view would have a huge difference.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by born2believe »

gibson wrote:At least in basketball strategy is just as important as aoe, although general strategy is ofc more basic. Iv been getting pissed and screaming at the TV lately because my favorite team isn't great on strategy and just got eliminated in the playoffs by a team with better strategy. I would argue that having someone in their ear with a TV view would have a huge difference.


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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by _RNZ_ »

Kaiserklein wrote:
_RNZ_ wrote:Being coached isn't the same as being on the same computer. Being coached is how people get better at the game, same as everyone else.

Calling with someone who can see what's happening on your screen actually has exactly the same effect as what I did with queen. It just allows the coach to give advice in real time. What's the difference here ?


I'm agreeing with queen haha
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by n0el »

born2believe wrote:
gibson wrote:At least in basketball strategy is just as important as aoe, although general strategy is ofc more basic. Iv been getting pissed and screaming at the TV lately because my favorite team isn't great on strategy and just got eliminated in the playoffs by a team with better strategy. I would argue that having someone in their ear with a TV view would have a huge difference.


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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by n0el »

_RNZ_ wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
_RNZ_ wrote:Being coached isn't the same as being on the same computer. Being coached is how people get better at the game, same as everyone else.

Calling with someone who can see what's happening on your screen actually has exactly the same effect as what I did with queen. It just allows the coach to give advice in real time. What's the difference here ?


I'm agreeing with queen haha


The difference there's two sets on eyes (one better) and a higher intelligence aoe3 mind working in real time. Coaching outside of the game is totally different and not at all comparable.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Goodspeed »

@WickedCossack 's chess analogy perfectly illustrates why coaching is unfair in this game. Yes there's a mechanical aspect, but real-time decision making is still a huge deal.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Goodspeed wrote:@WickedCossack 's chess analogy perfectly illustrates why coaching is unfair in this game. Yes there's a mechanical aspect, but real-time decision making is still a huge deal.

Except taking decisions for someone else, in chess, means that you basically play in his stead... Unlike in aoe, where mechanics are still really impactful
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Goodspeed »

It's still a strategy game.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by born2believe »

Goodspeed wrote:@WickedCossack 's chess analogy perfectly illustrates why coaching is unfair in this game. Yes there's a mechanical aspect, but real-time decision making is still a huge deal.


But then again... when it comes to chess strategy is everything. In AOE3 the most important resource is probably APM, therefor the strategic advice doesn't help you as much, but it still helps you more then in Basketball or other sports. It certanly offers an advantage, but I don't think it's big enough to justify forbbiding it. The deciding factor is probably that AOE is a real time game, so it's not like you have a few minutes to make a decision like in turn based games.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by deleted_user0 »

I had this debate last time. Now it seems rules got even stricter. Its just silly tbh.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by gibson »

:hmm:
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Garja »

born2believe wrote:But then again... when it comes to chess strategy is everything. In AOE3 the most important resource is probably APM, therefor the strategic advice doesn't help you as much, but it still helps you more then in Basketball or other sports. It certanly offers an advantage, but I don't think it's big enough to justify forbbiding it. The deciding factor is probably that AOE is a real time game, so it's not like you have a few minutes to make a decision like in turn based games.

Well, It is not everything. Time management is big deal (at elite level is pretty much the reason why players make mistakes)
Imagine two players splitting the task of calculating a variation.
That's why coaching is the norm in chess but real time advices are forbidden.

This brings me to the point: one thing is coaching between games, the other is while playing. Yes, chess analogy is perfect.
The mechanical part is obviously relevant but so is the decision making part. And anyway where do you draw the line? Time control is a real time feature in chess as well, especially in blitz or even just rapid time set. In AOE mechanics will be affected too by coaching, e.g. spotting raids or noticing stuff in queue.
I mean you can't argue that real time coaching is an unfair advantage, it is so obvious that it is impossible to refute.
Also, this extends to stuff like streaming or skyping or w/e while playing. If a streamer is able to get real time advices from the chat , he is obviously going to have an advantage. The only difference here is that reading messages is probably more counterproductive than not getting the advice but if for example tips where given by voice that would definitely fall in the cheating category.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

this is truu. and yet noel lost when jeruma gave him advice. i guess the problem there mustve been jeruma XD
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by born2believe »

Garja wrote:
born2believe wrote:But then again... when it comes to chess strategy is everything. In AOE3 the most important resource is probably APM, therefor the strategic advice doesn't help you as much, but it still helps you more then in Basketball or other sports. It certanly offers an advantage, but I don't think it's big enough to justify forbbiding it. The deciding factor is probably that AOE is a real time game, so it's not like you have a few minutes to make a decision like in turn based games.

Well, It is not everything. Time management is big deal (at elite level is pretty much the reason why players make mistakes)
Imagine two players splitting the task of calculating a variation.
That's why coaching is the norm in chess but real time advices are forbidden.

This brings me to the point: one thing is coaching between games, the other is while playing. Yes, chess analogy is perfect.
The mechanical part is obviously relevant but so is the decision making part. And anyway where do you draw the line? Time control is a real time feature in chess as well, especially in blitz or even just rapid time set. In AOE mechanics will be affected too by coaching, e.g. spotting raids or noticing stuff in queue.
I mean you can't argue that real time coaching is an unfair advantage, it is so obvious that it is impossible to refute.
Also, this extends to stuff like streaming or skyping or w/e while playing. If a streamer is able to get real time advices from the chat , he is obviously going to have an advantage. The only difference here is that reading messages is probably more counterproductive than not getting the advice but if for example tips where given by voice that would definitely fall in the cheating category.


It definitelly gives an advantage otherwise it would be pointless. But imo it should be a part of the game. In sports or e-sports coaching is a big part of the game and if you have the better coach you have a higher chance of winning. The reason with the comparison with chess isn't really good is because chess doesn't require any APM (a.e. if the best chess player in the world would be giving you advice, you would only need to move the pieces and anyone could do that), whereas in AOE3 or anything else you still need to be able to execute the things your coach tells you to do.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Garja »

Read the point about time control. Without time pressure elite chess players basically wouldnt make mistakes as they pretty much agree on variations and ideas post-game. (There is also opening preparation actually which is done mostly by coach/second and which is very big deal). Time is big deal in chess too just loke mechanics in AOE. So the comparison is 'almost' perfect (gotta be same game to be perfect by definition I guess).
Anyway other e-sports have coaches but they are not allowed to talk with players during the game so there must be a reason, right?
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by Goodspeed »

born2believe wrote:It definitelly gives an advantage otherwise it would be pointless. But imo it should be a part of the game. In sports or e-sports coaching is a big part of the game
I don't know of any e-sport where ingame coaching is allowed. And for good reason because strategic decision making tends to be a big deal in e-sports, just like in AoE.
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

Yeah w/e I will never do it again bla bla was a mistake bla bla next time I let Kaiser directly play on my acc :uglylol: :maniac:
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Re: Why can tourney games only be casted/streamed by ESOC?

Post by born2believe »

Goodspeed wrote:
born2believe wrote:It definitelly gives an advantage otherwise it would be pointless. But imo it should be a part of the game. In sports or e-sports coaching is a big part of the game
I don't know of any e-sport where ingame coaching is allowed. And for good reason because strategic decision making tends to be a big deal in e-sports, just like in AoE.


Garja wrote:Read the point about time control. Without time pressure elite chess players basically wouldnt make mistakes as they pretty much agree on variations and ideas post-game. (There is also opening preparation actually which is done mostly by coach/second and which is very big deal). Time is big deal in chess too just loke mechanics in AOE. So the comparison is 'almost' perfect (gotta be same game to be perfect by definition I guess).
Anyway other e-sports have coaches but they are not allowed to talk with players during the game so there must be a reason, right?


I am almost certain that Dota 2 and LoL have coaches ingame. And its much like AoE regards to strategy, spotting ganks (raids) and so on.

To expand my point regards to chess vs AoE. If I (a PR20), were to play anyone of you two, even if someone like H2O were to be coaching me, I would definitely still lose. Whereas in chess (which I have no clue about), if the best chess player would coach me ingame, I would always beet a very good chess player.
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