Isn't Japan lame?

[_RDX_]

I like this civ too but seems to be scary to take against japan. To be honest, they kill the beauty of rushers and semi's. Though we are 100 points ahead of him at one stage in the score. He slowly gets to the place and beat the score easily. This why i say japan is lame, they have got things that are unstoppable. Japan is Immortal. I wanted to add up a few points.
1. They are just slow at the age up time, things get faster once they age up
2. They have classic and powerful infantry at age 2.
3. Ashis are running bitches which have 4.50 speed(unlike any other musketeers). Indeed, they are the strongest late game musketeers.
4. Yumis are very good longbows. they have very good range. its hard to kill 50 yumis with 3 mahouts. Also, from age 3, they act like powerful skirms. they get the guard and imperial upgrade without any cards (brits need Yeomen card to do that). it isn't easy to penetrate the walls where yumis are covered on.
5. They have good cavs, good siege weapon.
6. All of their wonders are very powerful than other asian civs.
7. Agra fort, gives LOS and map control for some extent whereas shrines cover all over the map near hunts producing resources and supporting population. Shrines are the things that makes people more angry when they play vs japan.
8. Like other asian civs, they have the consulate. They can get besterios, yamabushis depending upon the situation. They can also boom by getting the dutch bank.
9. They don't have any cease to the production of resources even when villies are garrisoned. This is the reason that most of the rush fail vs Japan.
11. They have the Super Freaking Awesome unit know as the "Daimyo".
12. They are the most powerful civ overall in the Age of Empires 3
13. They are the strongest late gamers
14. Last but not the least, They don't get fucking raided.

Have knowing these many things, Good Speed just says "They are nothing but slow booming brits" in his guide.
@Zhanson10, Japan is lamer than Otto, sioux and even poor india

[tedere12]

japan is pretty hard to beat on low lvl, I had the same issues when I was playing vs japan some months ago (and still do sometimes ^^). Play japan yourself to understand how this civ works and how to beat them.

[gh0st]

waiting for @Zhanson10 's insight on this

[Atomiswave]

Actually Japan's early game is quite weak if you manage to keep shrines at bay. It depends from mu's ofc, but ideally you want to pressure Japan early and not wait till they get large yumi mass which is pretty hard to deal with.

[666_X]

zhanson10 said Japan and india are the lamest civs and tier 1 case closed end of this thread.

[Googol]

Play japan yourself vs better players and see how you get countered. I had the same issues aswell. But yeah on the other hand india so lame and japan lame aswell and Zhanson is right.

[Googol]

Although i must say on some qs maps its a pain to play vs them.

[Darwin_]

Japan is probably the best civ on quicksearch, but they can definitely be beaten (fairly easily if you scout them well). In regular 1v1's, I don't think they are very strong (brit hard counters them, and if the japan player only knows how to shrine boom spain does well against them as well as sioux).

[Hazza54321]

id say its partly true, they certainly have some broken aspects, theyre fine in 1v1 though

[pecelot]

Japan is probably the best civ on quicksearch

I heard they beat Iro on Sonora

2. They have classic and powerful infantry at age 2.

What about Ottomans, Iroquois, India, even Brits?

3. Ashis are running bitches which have 4.50 speed(unlike any other musketeers). Indeed, they are the strongest late game musketeers.

Their speed is indeed a very powerful factor, though they still have to compete with Sepoys, Guerreiros and Redcoats

4. Yumis are very good longbows. they have very good range. its hard to kill 50 yumis with 3 mahouts. Also, from age 3, they act like powerful skirms. they get the guard and imperial upgrade without any cards (brits need Yeomen card to do that). it isn't easy to penetrate the walls where yumis are covered on.

Why shouldn't they act like powerful skirms in age 3? Isn't that the entire point? Also, they are indeed strong — that's why they were nerfed in the newest iteration of the ESOC Patch!

5. They have good cavs, good siege weapon.

The thing is, not really — Yabusame are vastly inferior to other Dragoon-type units; Naginata Riders are tanky, agreed, but they're still Lancer-type cavalry which needs a card to be on par with its counterparts. Nevertheless, cavalry definitely isn't Japan's biggest strength, unless you count Yojimbo
Good siege weaponry isn't really significant in terms of civilisations balance

6. All of their wonders are very powerful than other asian civs.

What about Torii Gates vs Porcelain Tower?

8. Like other asian civs, they have the consulate. They can get besterios, yamabushis depending upon the situation. They can also boom by getting the dutch bank.

What about the Chinese, who have Redcoats and a Factory?

9. They don't have any cease to the production of resources even when villies are garrisoned. This is the reason that most of the rush fail vs Japan.

In fact, they do — shrines are most of the time on wood, plus it's still the minor part of the Japanese economy

11. They have the Super Freaking Awesome unit know as the "Daimyo".

Ever heard of Cuirassiers?

12. They are the most powerful civ overall in the Age of Empires 3

What kind of argument is that?

13. They are the strongest late gamers

They certainly don't match France.

14. Last but not the least, They don't get fucking raided.

So once you run out of your in-base coin-mines, you switch directly to Rice Paddies?

[jj0823]

Civs have weaknesses and you have to take advantage of them to succeed. Their early game eco blows and if you get pikes out on the map to take out their shrines you cripple their possibility of making more units (population and eco too low)
If you let Japan boom you are playing right into their hands and will lose.

[pecelot]

With all that being said, I definitely — at least partially — agree. I highly dislike developers' approach towards Asian civilisations, not to mention Japan in particular. Its main weakness is in early game in 1v1s, thankfully — anywhere else they absolutely excel. Long games, team, NR, FFA, idk even Lost — Japan is mainly either considered OP or straight-up banned there. Their ease to pull of amazing stuff after the initial stages is incredible — in my opinion it's mostly due to their deck structure. They have less resource and units cards in general as they can send the same ones twice, leaving them a lot of space for valuable upgrades, which scale amazingly with all bonuses they have to offer. Other civ are not able to allow themselves for that. Think about France: it's supposed to be stronger than Japan in late game, but the former is very mediocre with no home-city shipments essential for these stages — which you, naturally, won't find in regular 1v1 decks.
Therefore, I have personal bias against them, don't really like their design, and perhaps could agree with the thesis (I can't say for certain due to my inexperience), unless we're talking about 1v1s with no treaty.

[yurashic]

I highly dislike developers' approach towards Asian civilisations.

Yes, Asian civilization design is dumb. Making these civilizations very unique makes them too weak or too strong in different conditions.

[JakeyBoyTH]

I like this civ too but seems to be scary to take against japan. To be honest, they kill the beauty of rushers and semi's. Though we are 100 points ahead of him at one stage in the score. He slowly gets to the place and beat the score easily. This why i say japan is lame, they have got things that are unstoppable. Japan is Immortal. I wanted to add up a few points.
1. They are just slow at the age up time, things get faster once they age up Probably, but this means they are vulnerable
2. They have classic and powerful infantry at age 2.So do British and India etc
3. Ashis are running bitches which have 4.50 speed(unlike any other musketeers). Indeed, they are the strongest late game musketeers. Spain are stronger
4. Yumis are very good longbows. they have very good range. its hard to kill 50 yumis with 3 mahouts. Also, from age 3, they act like powerful skirms. they get the guard and imperial upgrade without any cards (brits need Yeomen card to do that). it isn't easy to penetrate the walls where yumis are covered on. If you let Japan mass 50 yumi and you only have 3 mahouts??????
5. They have good cavs, good siege weapon. Average but tough cav. Hussar are better.
6. All of their wonders are very powerful than other asian civs. China where you get a factory and being able to heal all your units?
7. Agra fort, gives LOS and map control for some extent whereas shrines cover all over the map near hunts producing resources and supporting population. Shrines are the things that makes people more angry when they play vs japan. If you are not sieging shrines then you let them win
8. Like other asian civs, they have the consulate. They can get besterios, yamabushis depending upon the situation. They can also boom by getting the dutch bank.
I don't see much reason to ally with dutch in supremacy tbh, if you let japan get to that stage then you let them win
9. They don't have any cease to the production of resources even when villies are garrisoned. This is the reason that most of the rush fail vs Japan.
I agree this is OP, but really it's just a mechanic, early on shrines dont make much at all. If you let japan get to that stage (because 75w is a lot!) then you let them win
11. They have the Super Freaking Awesome unit know as the "Daimyo".
Overrated.
12. They are the most powerful civ overall in the Age of Empires 3
Debateable. Iro is probably much better
13. They are the strongest late gamers
lol France is way better
14. Last but not the least, They don't get fucking raided.
Mines?

Have knowing these many things, Good Speed just says "They are nothing but slow booming brits" in his guide.
They are
@Zhanson10, Japan is lamer than Otto, sioux and even poor india
Not really no, just different civ.

[yurashic]

Very bad arguments JakeyBoyTH.

[JakeyBoyTH]

Very bad arguments JakeyBoyTH.

To be fair arguing that Japan is unbeatable is pretty BS anyway

[pecelot]

Yeah, Spanish musks are not a comparison

[JakeyBoyTH]

Yeah, Spanish musks are not a comparison

they are the most powerful musk unit tho.

[yurashic]

We are back to daddy talks about best units! Treaty players and Thebritish would be proud.

[macacoalbino]

Japan has a real slow start, try to abuse that and you won't notice their broken lategame

[fei123456]

1. with 300w start japan has a real fast start.
2. naginata has 30% rr, and with 30%HP card they can tank tons of damage, and are far more better than hussar. (that's why mameluke has such a low attack, but are still considered OP).
3. it depends on the map generally. most RE maps are like this: they're big, there're only very few animals in base, while they spread out around the map, which benefits japan a lot.
4. golden pavilion and agra fort are the best two wonders in the game.

[Ashvin]

IMBA?

[Hazza54321]

Generally japan need to ship units in age 3 instead of upgrades if you play it right, or you should have a superior eco to compete with their units

[_RDX_]

Their speed is indeed a very powerful factor, though they still have to compete with Sepoys, Guerreiros and Redcoats

Ashi attack cards+ Golden Pavilion range attack buff+ Japanese consulate+ Daimyo = strongest late game musketeers with 65+ attack (but i think spanish musks are strong with the missionaries with unction card. They had like 80+ attack at a time)

Ever heard of Cuirassiers?

Can cuirassiers give buff to nearby units while acting as a good cav? Can cuirassiers train soldiers and receive shipments?

[pecelot]

Yeah, Spanish musks are not a comparison

they are the most powerful musk unit tho.

So according to this logic they take a lot more population space, as you need to have missionaries around them at the same time.

@_RDX_, attack is not everything. Ashigarus also cost more than regular musketeers, though it makes them very pop-efficient
Iroquois War Chief has an aura, too, but I'd agree, I don't really like the design of such units, like I said. Nevertheless, there are units that are more of pain in the neck in the game, in my humble opinion.