Classic question: Are different civs' booms different?

[Theodore]

Dear community,

this question kept spinning in my mind (I even registered here to ask you girls and guys): Are different civilisations' booms different? Of course they are in a sense that some civs (as British or Russia) require a lot of hunts and therefore map control, while other civs can boom quite some time staying in their base (Dutch). Depending on the map and on your adversary, you might not be able to fully boom or even worse, be starved off of resources.

But leaving these things aside, in the end every civ gets to an equivalent of 99 villagers. Provided all civs have the same source of income (either natural resources or plantations, mills and rice paddies) and available upgrades - does every civ generate the same income? From a balance perspective I assume that in the end every civ should have roughly the same rate of resource income. Of course, same civs can boom faster than others, but when maxed out on villagers the "all resources gathered"-curve should ascend comparably?

You see, I am not talking about the harsh reality of a 1v1 on an RE map, maybe treaty players know? But even in 1v1s, people talk about civs "scaling" well and some 1v1s go on long enough for both players to set up a huge eco.

I was too lazy to do 300 scenarios to test this and I thought maybe someone knows @Goodspeed @dicktator_ ?

[Goodspeed]

It takes a while to boom to max eco (99 vills for most civs) and in a supremacy game you don't have time for that because you need military units to defend your base and take map control in order to continue gathering natural resources.
When people say boom (outside of treaty) they are usually referring to the means a civ may have of quickly improving their economy. A civ like France for example doesn't have many such means, only Trading Posts and the 4v shipment come to mind, while a civ like Brits can max manors for +20 vills and have a strong eco at 6 minutes game time. Dutch can build 4 or 5 banks, which is more expensive but also roughly equals +20v, and have a big eco at 6. The Portuguese boom is slower but continues more steadily, giving them the biggest eco in longer games.

The word "scaling" means how well a civ does in longer games. This isn't only influenced by the strength, speed, or cost of the civ's boom, but also by its other civ bonuses like the strength of their units or shipments. British and Dutch scale quite well mainly because of their boom, but they do lose their magic at a certain point because other civs have stronger units. Particularly the Asian civs tend to have the best late game scaling due to their strong unit compositions and solid, steadily growing economies. Japan is comparable to Brit in that their boom works similarly, but Japan starts much slower and has stronger units which means they scale better yet have a weakness in the early game.

Max economies tend to not be in the picture in supremacy games. You do sometimes see it in teamgames, but even there most games are decided before that point.
Try watching some recordings of civs like Brits, Japan, Dutch, and Ports. This might give you a better idea of how booming works in supremacy games and how those civs' economies stack up against other civs' at various game times.

[JakeyBoyTH]

For treaty there are some civs that get a different amount. It is reflected in their boom score. Currently Iroquois get the highest score, so I would assume they get a higher amount of resources as well.

For instance the Dutch get one of the worst booms available, as a Bank is only approximately 2 or 3 vills. This gives them a total of around 75 Vill population to get their resources from.

Compared to Germans who have 140 Vill pop to play with. So you see not every civ gets 99 Vill pop to play with.

Then you have civs like the British, whose cowing (Using livestock to generate food) is so insane they can almost keep up with the Germans' insane eco.

To really compare the boom amount you compare the end score at around 40 minutes at the end of the treaty. I would like to see scores available for RE but I dont think we have a table available.

These are some rough estimates from me (They also vary by map and I usually play Orinoco, you could probably get 100 more on Andes and 200 more on Deccan) These are also peak scores.
British: 2700
German: 2900
Japan: 2100
Sioux: 1800
Dutch: 2200
Portugal: 2400
Spain: 2300
Ottoman: 2500 (In-between Portugal and British maybe?)
France: 2800
India: I don't play them that often sorry
Iroquois: 3200
China: I also don't play them much, but they have 120v and Cowing same as Iro, but no Fur Trade, maybe 2800?
Aztec: Also don't play them often, they get a strong boom because extremely fast training settlers and insane mill gathering.

So you see, especially on RE there is a lot of variation in booms. A lot of matchups can be one-sided as a result of this. Especially VS France, however there are a lot of other things to consider apart from booms in treaty in order to win a game. Population on the battlefield is the other major factor and unit scaling. For instance Japan is very overpowered in that they have excellent end-game units, so whilst they have a poorer economy their units are more cost-efficient. This goes for Sioux as well. Dutch are similar in that they can field 146 population of units in the battlefield without having to delete villagers.

Hmm this is a very long post, I can talk more about this in discord if you want

[pecelot]

In regular games civs indeed have different means of booming, like GoodSpeed comprehensively wrote. Dutch have banks, British — manors, other civs can send big crates in age 3 for infrastructure and more mass. For instance, for Spanish, Germans (apart from sending their additional 2-SW shipment in age 2), French it's realistically the only way of focusing more on their economy — they can drop additional town centers from 1000 wood. Russians benefit from it, too, as their settler production is enhanced. Ottomans, on the other hand, rely mostly on TPs and perhaps the mosque, but it's still rather slow and costly (not so much on EP). Native civs, however, may build their farms and plantations for eco upgrades and above all put more villagers onto the fire pit for the Fertility Dance to speed up their boom. For Indians, though, it's going to be mostly researching powerful market improvements, sending wood trickles, adding more TCs. Japanese — shrine boom with market and TCs, Chinese can mess with the latter, too.
To give you a clearer example :)

[JakeyBoyTH]

To add a treaty perspective on what Pecelot wrote:
British: Manors (which give an additional settler when built) and the best Livestock Boom.
German: Settler Wagons. They can have 146 villager population in only a tiny bit more time than other civilisations.
French: Coureur Des Bois and Fur Trade as well as excellent Home City Shipments.
Japan: Shrine and 75 Villager population, which makes for an earlier Imperial age-up.
Sioux: Excellent hunting and very fast-training settlers.
Dutch: Strongest early boom with Banks and only 54 villager population.
Portugal: Excellent farming from mills and a free Town-centre with every age, not to mention up to 6 of them! (Thank you Not thank you @pecelot )
Spain: Fast-shipments mean they can setup their economy and age very quickly.
Ottoman: Free settlers mean less food. They are often close, if not the quickest to get their 3 Town-centres up. A fast age as well.
India: Fast-ageing and Fur Trade mean an extremely nice economy. They also have 103 villager population as opposed to 99.
Iroquois: Livestock similar (a little slower) than British, but combined with 120 villager population, Fur Trade and very fast-training settlers - this is the best boom of them all.
China: Livestock again similar so Iroquois and 120 Villager population. Instant upgrades and fast-training settlers make for an excellent boom.
Aztec: Best farms in the game. Even though native villagers gather slower it is offset by their upgrades. Fast-training villagers as well. Warrior Priests also mean you can keep farming XP, unlike other Warchief civilisations. (Thank you @edeholland this had escaped my mind!)
Russia: Fast-training and cheaper settlers right from the start.

Just to add, once you start learning the basic principles, and not just the guide, then you can achieve the best booms.

For instance with Portugal the principal is simple: Get aged up to IV ASAP while keeping constant vill production. Go to age V when you can.

For civs like Otto, things can get a bit more complex: you want to get to age III ASAP, even not researching some market upgrades is necessary for this, but because we understand that Otto's biggest bonus are the free settlers, this is essential for a nice boom.

[edeholland]

For Aztecs, please add the fast training settlers (firepit) and the infinite 1400 gold shipment (combined with a lot of XP from firepit).

[pecelot]

Portugal: Excellent farming from mills and a free Town-centre with every age, not to mention up to 6 of them!

Even up to 10!

[JakeyBoyTH]

For Aztecs, please add the fast training settlers (firepit) and the infinite 1400 gold shipment (combined with a lot of XP from firepit).

Whilst the infinite gold shipment is substantial, the Aztecs do have a deficiency in gathering gold from plantations - as do the other Warchief civilisations, although Iroquois is offset by Fur Trade and Sioux are insanely food-heavy. It is important when booming to note down villager distribution, which should relate to the units you will make.

To use Aztec as an example, your treaty composition usually revolves around Eagle Runner Knights and Arrow Knight. You should mix in the Infinite 20 Macehultin (please excuse my spelling) as well. This means you will need more gold than you will food. This should relate to around 50-60 villagers on coin. Lesser villagers on food is fine for Aztec as you will have such high gather rates you will get the amount of food you will need.

This also depends on the map. As I usually play on Orinoco where wood is scarce you want to have many more villagers on wood on maps such as Andes or Toluca, as Aztec's main cavalry unit, the Coyote Runner, uses wood as well and you need to have a cavalry presence on the map. Eagle Runner Knights act as a Dragoon and Skirmisher-type unit, so you need to have a cavalry presence to get rid of large masses of enemy Skirmishers - which many treaty compositions have.

[pecelot]

I meant that you could get 10 TCs if you revolt

[JakeyBoyTH]

Perhaps I should just make a whole thread about this or shut up
Also @pecelot I think you will find your extra TC's won't be of much help when you revolt

[lemmings121]

I just gained 2 NR40 prs just by reading @JakeyBoyTH 's posts.

[pecelot]

Also @pecelot I think you will find your extra TC's won't be of much help when you revolt

For the record, they are your natural military infrastructure for recruiting the Militiamen

[JakeyBoyTH]

Also @pecelot I think you will find your extra TC's won't be of much help when you revolt

For the record, they are your natural military infrastructure for recruiting the Militiamen

How will you gather the food to produce Militiamen

[Theodore]

Ok, many answers there, thank you!

It is clear that there are huge differences and that "booming" in treaty and supremacy works differently. Although I play exclusively supremacy, it is was helpful to get a treaty player's perspective (@JakeyBoyTH , thanks).

The question came up when I switched from playing Russia to playing India (both civs tagged with "scaling well") and thought: "How the fuck did they balance this?". Vanilla +TWC civs can't build villagers during age up, Asian civs can. The market ups are completely different. Asian civs have rice paddies. Indian settlers cost wood (gathers more slowly), Japan can't use hunts directly (berries are also slower to gather from). European civs have factories.

So I had the assumption that at least in the end, every civ should have approx. the same inflow of resources? Because how they get there is ofc different, and as @Goodspeed said, British boom is very fast with famous VC and max Manors. But yeah, maybe it's a wrong assumption and the civ design also influences their "final" income.

[lemmings121]

I meant that you could get 10 TCs if you revolt

really? how?

[lemmings121]

So I had the assumption that at least in the end, every civ should have approx. the same inflow of resources? Because how they get there is ofc different, and as @Goodspeed said, British boom is very fast with famous VC and max Manors. But yeah, maybe it's a wrong assumption and the civ design also influences their "final" income.

yep, its a wrong assumption, civs like oto can be outgathered by a huge margin and still be strong, its just that each civ has different mechanics.

[Goodspeed]

Indeed economic potential isn't everything. Speed is a big factor (for example Otto tend to age a full minute faster than Asian civs), strength of units and shipments are big factors, and also booming requires investment which means you are trading military production for more economy. Depending on the map and opposing civ that may or may not be a good idea.

[pecelot]

But Asian vills have to waste their Villager Seconds (VS) on building the wonder, otherwise they'll age very late. Japanese gather from berries, which is way slower than getting food from hunts, but you have like zero idle time related to herding and raiding, market upgrades affect the berries' gather rate and you have shrines on top of that. Indians, on the other hand, start with first 2 wood market upgrades already researched and have cheaper houses, for instance, to compensate for the wood cost of vills. It's more or less balanced, overall.

Also @pecelot I think you will find your extra TC's won't be of much help when you revolt

For the record, they are your natural military infrastructure for recruiting the Militiamen

How will you gather the food to produce Militiamen

You can revolt at the end of the treaty and still have factories/TPs/fish/sling

I meant that you could get 10 TCs if you revolt

really? how?

Just check in the game

[_RDX_]

British: 2700
German: 2900
Japan: 2100
Sioux: 1800
Dutch: 2200
Portugal: 2400
Spain: 2300
Ottoman: 2500 (In-between Portugal and British maybe?)
France: 2800
India: I don't play them that often sorry. Its ~2200 imo
Iroquois: 3200
China: I also don't play them much, but they have 120v and Cowing same as Iro, but no Fur Trade, maybe 2800?
Aztec: Also don't play them often, they get a strong boom because extremely fast training settlers and insane mill gathering.

[momuuu]

British: 2700
German: 2900
Japan: 2100
Sioux: 1800
Dutch: 2200
Portugal: 2400
Spain: 2300
Ottoman: 2500 (In-between Portugal and British maybe?)
France: 2800
India: I don't play them that often sorry. Its ~2200 imo
Iroquois: 3200
China: I also don't play them much, but they have 120v and Cowing same as Iro, but no Fur Trade, maybe 2800?
Aztec: Also don't play them often, they get a strong boom because extremely fast training settlers and insane mill gathering.

India can easily do 2500+