Consulate gather rate

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United States of America alistairpeter
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Consulate gather rate

Post by alistairpeter »

Is it ever worth it to change to 5% in 10% for the consulate gather rates?
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by _H2O »

No. It's very very bad
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by rsy »

Yeah its worth it to go 10% if u have 350-375 export lying around. Then once u send the army, u drop it back down to 0%.

This is basically because export is another resource but at 375 export it is still worth basically 0 resources.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by _H2O »

It's not worth it to do that. I love little optimizarions but this just isn't one of them.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by Jaeger »

_H2O wrote:It's not worth it to do that. I love little optimizarions but this just isn't one of them.

How do you know though? I see poeple saying that all the time, but it's never backed up. I think if you play vs Azzy for example and you know that within the next minute all your vills will be idle, I think it may be a good idea to gather that extra 30 export you need for mm/units.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by _H2O »

So you lose X resources to get your consulate batch of muskets a little faster. Then after that you have to wait for another 400 resources from the consulate. Until that time the X resources you have given up are for nothing

t1 = faster time for batch
t2 = normal time for batch
t3 = faster next batch
t4 = normal next batch

On a timeline it looks like this:
-The giant gap between t2 and t3 is just you giving up resources for no gain in that window of time.
-The larger you make the gap between t1 and t2, the more resources it costs.
-Its not worth it
t1..t2.............................................................................................t3..t4
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by deleted_user0 »

i've been considering this though, when youre on fre consulate, instead of taking a 5% on your res, which isnt that significant, you can take 15% on export. or how much it is, i dunno

otherwise ye, wouldnt do it
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by fei123456 »

Sometimes it can determine a game if your batch come out 20 seconds earlier.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by Jaeger »

_H2O wrote:So you lose X resources to get your consulate batch of muskets a little faster. Then after that you have to wait for another 400 resources from the consulate. Until that time the X resources you have given up are for nothing

t1 = faster time for batch
t2 = normal time for batch
t3 = faster next batch
t4 = normal next batch

On a timeline it looks like this:
-The giant gap between t2 and t3 is just you giving up resources for no gain in that window of time.
-The larger you make the gap between t1 and t2, the more resources it costs.
-Its not worth it
t1..t2.............................................................................................t3..t4


Hmm ok that's convincing. But what about doing it mid/late fortress with Japan, since you can spend export more incrementally on clubs?
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by P i k i l i c »

@Jaeger still not worth it. Look at my signature! :hmm:
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:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by Garja »

ovi12 wrote:
_H2O wrote:So you lose X resources to get your consulate batch of muskets a little faster. Then after that you have to wait for another 400 resources from the consulate. Until that time the X resources you have given up are for nothing

t1 = faster time for batch
t2 = normal time for batch
t3 = faster next batch
t4 = normal next batch

On a timeline it looks like this:
-The giant gap between t2 and t3 is just you giving up resources for no gain in that window of time.
-The larger you make the gap between t1 and t2, the more resources it costs.
-Its not worth it
t1..t2.............................................................................................t3..t4


Hmm ok that's convincing. But what about doing it mid/late fortress with Japan, since you can spend export more incrementally on clubs?

I have an FF build with Jap where I basically make pure yumi and 2 clubs per cycle with 10% cons. Since yumi are op, 2 clubs per cycle is basically all you need as anticav plus those from intervention and 300export.
Except for that it's not worth it just because normal resources have better use than consulate units/techs. This is an exception I think, because I don't have to remacro to make ashis nor send them nor upping them. Also export in that case would be rather useless imo since mixing ashi and clubs on the same group doesn't work very well.
If there was a possibility to change it to 50% or more it would be more useful.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by n0el »

Why you need clubs when you have yumi? Silly garja.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by Dsy »

Why clubs when you have ronins? :D
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Dsy wrote:Why clubs when you have ronins? :D

I dont think you can train enough in time you'd be ronin out
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by deleted_user »

I'm not Garja, but I'm embarrassed because of what he thinks
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by _H2O »

deleted_user wrote:I'm not Garja, but I'm embarrassed because of what he thinks


The simplicity of this message made me laugh. Nice one
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by Gendarme »

Why ronins when you have hatamotos?
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by gamevideo113 »

Well afaik the export gather rate per villager goes up from 0.03 to 0.05 when you turn it to 10%, which is a 66% increase in export income for a 10% decrease in resource income.
If you take 1 vill (assuming it gathers at 0.6, although often it's more than this) and you make it work for 100 seconds you have:

-60 res and 3 export with the standard rates
-54 res and 5 export with the modified rates

Since 1 export is worth 1,5 resources (actually a bit more if you keep in mind that consulate units are auto upgraded, but it's better to keep the maths simple), you are giving up 6 resources for 2 export, which is worth 3 resources.

Therefore i guess that mathematically speaking the 10% change is not a long term viable possibility, since your villagers are overall being 4,7% less productive. With higher gathering rates for resources this gets even worse obviously. Only if you need your next consulate upgrade desperately you should consider switching to 10%.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by _H2O »

Ty for the math. That's another point I didn't make because I didn't know the math. I was pretty sure it's also just not a 1-1 exchange.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by Garja »

Even if it was, it is just not enough of a boost to build a strat around it. If you could decide to boost it by 50% or so (still with inefficicency) I'm pretty sure one could find some use for it.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by thomasgreen6 »

Gendarme wrote:Why ronins when you have hatamotos?


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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by alistairpeter »

Wow, this is really impressive guys! Thank you all very much for the input. Ive been trying to practice the game more ans improve my play, when I have the time. But I often come around questions and it's so nice to be able to come here and have people who know what they're talking about spend their own time to help me. On this topic though, are same consulate armies more valuable than others? I know it would depend on what your opponents enemy composition is, but id imagine they are all roughly the same. But what I mean is, age 3 ports have like 7 musk and a culv so 1100 rec vs the other civs age 3 choices. And i never thought of the auto upgrade like a rec, so could it ever be viable in perhaps some fi? Considering that your curates arena going to be affected by it at all (which is often where the rec come from I order to age up ie 700 coin etc) and something like indias trickle or china porcelain tower want go slower or tp, shrine etc. So if it us under those circumstances, are there any of the age 4 consulate armies that really stick out? (It would be good to know,even if changing the consulate wouldn't be worth it). Also, by a lot if the logic you guys are using you say things like you're losing so many resources etc, but why can't it be looked at as investing? You lose rec every time you buy something. Like,when someone rushes really hard they neglect their eco so badly, and can still manage to win. Im not saying there is a way, im just kind of curious how its any different from that, BC yes it would take longer to do, but I just feel like its a very unexplored topic. I mean with three different civ possibilities id imagine there would have to be some sort of scenario where its worth it, but you guys are obviously the experts lol. Anyway thanks for taking the time to respond, I really love this game, its awesome to know we have such a nice community
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by gamevideo113 »

Not an expert too but i think that the armies you get from the consulate are too limited to base a strategy around them, even if you switch to 10% in the consulate. This is also why a FI consulate strategy is not really viable, by the time you get imp you won't even have 1600 export to afford the industrial consulate army. But yes, many of those armies are pretty good and a nice addition to the conventional armies.

Here you can see a reference guide for the consulate:
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/strategy/21

What could be explored instead in my opinion is a Good Faith Agreements build with Chinese or Indian since they can ally with the French and ship a couple of crates with Palace Intrigue. Afaik India usually ships Distributivism as the first card which is basically 2 villagers on wood which don't help a lot in the short term.

Anyway if you want to stick to a more standard play you should send Redcoats as China, Besteiros/Yamabushi as Japan and Redcoats/Hussars/Villagers as India
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by _H2O »

Yep, the passive you get from the consulate is what matters the most for most of the game. You can tech through a few eco upgrades in early game on the way there.
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Re: Consulate gather rate

Post by chrisie »

One way you could increase your export income without needing to suffer the gather rate loss from the consulate is by shipping sumptuary laws, an age1 card that all asian civs have that gives them 5 villagers worth of export every second. (unless you are india in which case its a team card and quite terrible sadly, don't even get the civ bonus villager) as a bonus it even gives you a 0.30 of every normal resource every second as well AND 0.15 exp per second. the shipment is just pure value. that being said the card is quite a bit weaker than the other trickles european civs get and quite weak in "standard" play, it is however a neat little thing to mess around with and together with the 300 export card (and as japan the ageup bonus from toshugo shrine) you can do some funny little consulate timing pushes

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