EP and Native Trading Posts

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EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by deleted_user »

Why are nats not viable? They're a significant investment for one and also, perhaps most importantly, instantaneously scout-able. The game scouts it for you and... why? If a player goes nats you already know the game plan and how to respond 90+ % of the time.

There has already been discussion on the fact that nats just aren't very viable but imo, while extremely niche, they can still serve a certain purpose, IF and ONLY IF native trading posts can only be scouted with a unit and not from the little icon in the top right.

Think brit mirror, hudson bay, cherokee in base. Cherokee counter musks (brit mirror meta) and also can train cdbs. It's a risk that can pay off. A risk that can manifest from an extremely successful age 1 (think killing enemy's scouting units). If scouted it's easily counter-able too but it provides an OPTION. There are surely other such instances.

THOUGHTS>?!?!?!?!
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

It's a great thing for you to post. I think maybe if we not allow the Nat post icon so you have to scout it?
Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk

Ugh Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk
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France Rikikipu
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by Rikikipu »

- Their stats are usually awful for their cost.
- Plus that for 200w you can only make one type of unit like pikes (kinda useless to go full pikes or Ranged infantry which get rekt by cav because you can not defend them).
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by deleted_user »

Not so awful no - they don't cost population. That's a -10w for each unit. It can also open up a certain unit type for a civ that doesn't normally have it.

Yes, niche, but not only ranged inf can be made at nat posts but also goon-type units in age 2 (think ger mirror). Even the sufi elephants are not bad vs russia and they are somewhat cost effective being mostly food.

Also they can have very good general upgrades which might be viable if their units can be made viable which could happen if the game doesn't auto-scout nat posts for you.
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by deleted_user »

I guess if my final point is anything it is that if there is a consensus that nats are still not viable without the game auto-scouting them then there is no reason not to have the game not auto scout them..

aiz will bash captains a little harder but that will be all.
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

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Post by bwinner »

Cheroke don't have cdb. Cree have cdb.
I think some are really viable. We do see some cree and cheyennes sometimes, but it's rare.
I like your idea of not showing the nativ TPs. Also to avoid having only one unit avaliable, make map with 2 complementary nativ units (like Iowa), @Rikikipu because if it's to put only a mapuche or nootka TP on the map, it's totally useless...
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

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Post by deleted_user0 »

The greatest problem with nats is in most cases actually not that the icon is scouted or the stats, but rather these points:

1) low build limit
2) awkward native post positioning.
3) awkward combinations.

The best way to make nats viable is to double the pop limit or raise by 50% atleast. Or to add some tech to the nat post to allow to increase build limits (i know it would cause issues for treaty but they have their own patch)

Make the nat alliance building cheaper, say 25w or so, so you can build it in better positions.

The issue with better nat combos resides with the map makers.

Removing the autoscout is fine with me. I dont think its very necessary?

On maps where the buildlimit for thats and position and combo of nat posts are good, nats are actually viable. Think of great plains, cascade range, painted desert etc. The nats there are decent, and can be a good choice depending on the mu. Spanish and fre natrush on cascade range is very hard to stop even if you know its coming.
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by deleted_user »

Excellent. This was just bait to have a top player post his mind and maybe we can settle on an EP solution that combats the un-viability of nats while not making them meta.
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

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Post by Aizamk »

Nats are usually viable, it's just that nobody ever uses them...

For example, goon type nat in age 2 is a hard counter to mindless cav semi-ffs.
Tiger claws/Rattan with 300/300 upgrade and a few cards are insane.

The thing players tend to get wrong with going nats, imo, is they either over commit to it (i.e. put too many cards/resources into a nat that is situationally useful: see huamincas with high siege early on, nootka with relatively high siege high tanking value, but fairly useless anti-cav) or under commit (e.g. send 1 nat upgrade card then lose their nat post or something, making that card a complete waste for the rest of the game). Unless you're france with a tp, at some point you want to transition over to regular units once nats serve their purpose of pressuring in the early portion of the game, or when you're nearing the build limit.

The build limit is a huge factor especially considering that on some maps you can maybe only get one of a type. This is a tough thing to balance map-wise. For example on saguenay nats aren't mirrored, so you can fully commit to one of them. However, the Huron nat isn't nearly as useful as the Cree one. But on Hudson bay, while it is technically "fair" with mirrored nats, you're now only really limited to ONE cree tp, unless you're fish booming or something (in which case the Huron fishing upgrade is quite nice).

I don't particularly mind the fact that nat tps can be scouted via the score bar; it lends value to little tricks such as timing your nat post completion only once you're about to age. I do like Umeu's build limit idea, but I can see it being too overpowered (for a good nat) if it's 100%. Perhaps 50%. As for reducing the price of the native embassy, I'd say that the build time is more of a problem. As it stands right now, you're going to be very slow if you build your native post far away from both bases, and want to build a nat embassy in base/near your regular fb to make units arrive faster.

Also buffing the native treaties card to nilla stats (i.e. more natives per post) would be ideal, but then again that could make nats too overpowered. Nilla players (at least, old school) should know that a nat rush with that card on Sonora was practically a free win in most situations. TAD players are relatively inexperienced with this, however.
oranges.
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Re: EP and Native Trading Posts

Post by Garja »

Aizamk wrote:Nats are usually viable, it's just that nobody ever uses them...

For example, goon type nat in age 2 is a hard counter to mindless cav semi-ffs.
Tiger claws/Rattan with 300/300 upgrade and a few cards are insane.

The thing players tend to get wrong with going nats, imo, is they either over commit to it (i.e. put too many cards/resources into a nat that is situationally useful: see huamincas with high siege early on, nootka with relatively high siege high tanking value, but fairly useless anti-cav) or under commit (e.g. send 1 nat upgrade card then lose their nat post or something, making that card a complete waste for the rest of the game). Unless you're france with a tp, at some point you want to transition over to regular units once nats serve their purpose of pressuring in the early portion of the game, or when you're nearing the build limit.

The build limit is a huge factor especially considering that on some maps you can maybe only get one of a type. This is a tough thing to balance map-wise. For example on saguenay nats aren't mirrored, so you can fully commit to one of them. However, the Huron nat isn't nearly as useful as the Cree one. But on Hudson bay, while it is technically "fair" with mirrored nats, you're now only really limited to ONE cree tp, unless you're fish booming or something (in which case the Huron fishing upgrade is quite nice).

I don't particularly mind the fact that nat tps can be scouted via the score bar; it lends value to little tricks such as timing your nat post completion only once you're about to age. I do like Umeu's build limit idea, but I can see it being too overpowered (for a good nat) if it's 100%. Perhaps 50%. As for reducing the price of the native embassy, I'd say that the build time is more of a problem. As it stands right now, you're going to be very slow if you build your native post far away from both bases, and want to build a nat embassy in base/near your regular fb to make units arrive faster.

Also buffing the native treaties card to nilla stats (i.e. more natives per post) would be ideal, but then again that could make nats too overpowered. Nilla players (at least, old school) should know that a nat rush with that card on Sonora was practically a free win in most situations. TAD players are relatively inexperienced with this, however.


It is hard tho to get value from nats without committing. At least to me it seems a bit too situational. I only consider nats when there is some synergy among civ/map/techs/unit type.

Build limit might be a good meta buff. 50% seems enough already. Alternatively each embassy might increase the build limit by like 2 or so.

Native treaties card is still quite good with some combination of nats. Nilla card was a bit broken afterall. Maybe it could be reverted for some nats only.
As for map-wise balance there is a trade off between massing more of the same or getting more units with the treaty card (plus the possibility to get more techs). Also, on the maps I make there is always the requirement of geographical accuracy which complicates things.
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