Changing water for EP 4

Choose the option that best reflects your opinion on the mentioned changes

The changes are (near) perfect
19
30%
The changes are the right idea, but I think the numbers should be tweaked (reply with how they should be tweaked)
5
8%
I am okay with these changes but I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is even better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I agree with the fishing boat changes, but disagree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
7
11%
I disagree with the fishing boat changes, but agree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
4
6%
I disagree with the changes and I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I don't think we should change water at all
6
10%
I think we should try to balance water through maps alone
11
17%
I would uninstall the patch if these changes were implemented
7
11%
 
Total votes: 63

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Hungary Dsy
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Dsy »

Ofc i ment special ability. If you have 2 monitors its just ability shoot any artillery. And its not fun to lose expensive artillery for free like that.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

thebritish wrote:Now about the Schooners card. That card isn't even that amazing when you look out of the box. Schooners decreases the Fishing ship cost by 60% putting it at 40 wood Per Fishing ship.
In a game where people play the same civs (Player 1 with Schooners and Player 2 without). Both of them will do a water boom off 2 docks.
Player 1 will send Schooners and do 2 dock boom.
Player 2 can instead send 300 wood, which means for Schooners to be worth it more than 300 wood, Player 1 will need to make 300/40=7.5 (8 Fishing ships to be able to save 20 wood compared to Player 2).
But, Player can 2 can skip 300 wood and send 700 wood 600 wood to make Fishing boats instead of Schooners, 700 wood. (We will remove 700 wood because both players are sending it). Now its all about 600 wood vs Schooners. To make Schooners as good as 600 wood, Player 1 needs to make 600/40=15 Fishing boats.
If they do an Average boom of 16 Fishing boats, Player 1 has gained 40 wood from Schooners, but lets say they go for 24 Fishing boats boom.

24 Fishing boats minus 15 Fishing boats eguals to 9 Fishing boats (24-15=9) that cant be Covered by the 600 wood Shipment that Player 2 is sending.
9 Fishing boats multiplied by 40 wood each is 360 wood. 360 Resources seems Amazing for an age 1 card, but if we Compare it to 2 Settler Wagons for Germany (400 Resources) It looks subpar at best.

The real problem about water is Warships vs Culverins where Warships with OffShore Support cant be killed by Culverins if they(The Warships) are Microed.
Another Thing about Warships (Specifically Frigates) is that they have 0.05 Rate of Fire Compared to the 3.00 Rate of Fire of the Culverins.
What this means is that Frigates can shoot 20 times per second, but the issue here is that their animations makes it impossible to guess when they will shoot, so often Battles are Unpredictable (They can shoot from once to 20 times in one second or not even shoot at all).
This post ended up to be bigger than what i expected it to be, so i am gonna stop writing now and let others add to the discussion as well.

What if you can send schooners and 600w? Think about Ports, Spanish, Russians.

Rikikipu wrote:In order to make it possible you would have to approximately halve dock cost.
Example :

Code: Select all

   1 dock = 100w 
+ 1 boat = 70w
=> Total = 170w

I think it'd be too drastic, you could spam a lot of docks on maps like Indonesia, not to mention you'd be able to rebuild your lost ones pretty damn fast, which makes countering water on water less viable. The idea is somewhat interesting, however, but I'd perhaps choose a number closer to 150 in terms of wood cost.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

Dsy wrote:Ofc i ment special ability. If you have 2 monitors its just ability shoot any artillery. And its not fun to lose expensive artillery for free like that.

Special ability has cool down time. Two monitors is shot ton of resources. If the opponent can afford that you can afford stuff like spamming from 2 foundries.
Also special ability without ups doesn't even full kill artillery.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

Then again, the same can be said about a frigate — it costs 1000 resources, just like monitors, or actually more on EP, and its broadside attack has its cool-down time, and on top of that it leaves a culverin with 80/280 HP (not to mention you can have 2 of those, with the second one absorbing less damage), whereas this piece of artillery needs only 5 shots to take down a frigate, having 4-range advantage. The only problem seems to be the Offshore Support card, a one so powerful I didn't even realise it also grants 20-percent attack buff — although the description of the shipment itself is wrong and misleading:

Image

With that sent the frigates outrange the culverins by 1, which can be concerning. I'm of the opinion it's the only real threat that could, but not necessarily should be dealt with.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:
Dsy wrote:Ofc i ment special ability. If you have 2 monitors its just ability shoot any artillery. And its not fun to lose expensive artillery for free like that.

Special ability has cool down time. Two monitors is shot ton of resources. If the opponent can afford that you can afford stuff like spamming from 2 foundries.
Also special ability without ups doesn't even full kill artillery.


you are looking at it completely the wrong way. even without monitors and upgrades from dock, 2 culverins do not beat a frigate with offshore support. and its really quite difficult still to beat a frigate that don't have offshore support. 1 monitor easily beats 2 culverins, even without cards, and that's while they cost the same. and the culvs are supposed to counter warships. tell me any unit which can beat its counter cost for cost. none exist... not even BR do this. and thats talking only about culverins, which are like the best unit in its role for this. chinese hand mortars suck ass. iro light cannons do fine vs non upgraded, but have no chance vs upgraded warships. sioux rifle riders is a complete joke. arrow knights stand no chance what so ever. and normal mortars are way too slow, they can miss and don't have enough los. japanese morutaru are the best probably.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by momuuu »

WickedCossack wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Let me get this straight .... water isn't viable and the fix is ... nerf warships, nerf schooners (42 > 40) & buff culverins ?

I guess that one single water game from the last tournament was too much for some people.

I voted for the maps option.
You are randomly forgetting about the (very impactful) fishing boat buff. A 200w TC is pretty good.


A "very impactful" buff that's completely wiped out by the overlapping schooners nerf? Or is the idea to make a schooner play irrelevant? I mean it's already irrelevant on any non-indonesia map but even more irrelevant I guess.

Making schooners irrelevant would be a great thing to do.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

imo fishing doesn't really need any cost overhaul.

what we need is either:

a) a maximum of docks that can be made
b) a maximum of how many fishing boats can be made
c) regulate the above by designing the maps with that in mind.

alternate solutions are:
remove schooners, make fishing boats 50w std. remove whales.
or
schooners reduces cost, but also slightly increases training time.
or
just remove whales all together, but drastically increase normal fish.
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Turkey HUMMAN
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by HUMMAN »

What if schooners also gives 1 fishing ships per dock? Instant pay off
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by _H2O »

Please remember that warships have stupid cards. That paired with free healing and swingy outcomes means that if your civ doesn't have better cards or even worse your deck doesn't have the same number of water cards you can't expect to win water. I almost wonder if warship cards being rethought entirely would be helpful.

Think about admarilty. How do you beat someone who can build double your army.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Ashvin »

Yeah if you see that card your enemy's deck and you don't have it then it's gg!
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

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Post by Garja »

umeu wrote:
Garja wrote:
Dsy wrote:Ofc i ment special ability. If you have 2 monitors its just ability shoot any artillery. And its not fun to lose expensive artillery for free like that.

Special ability has cool down time. Two monitors is shot ton of resources. If the opponent can afford that you can afford stuff like spamming from 2 foundries.
Also special ability without ups doesn't even full kill artillery.


you are looking at it completely the wrong way. even without monitors and upgrades from dock, 2 culverins do not beat a frigate with offshore support. and its really quite difficult still to beat a frigate that don't have offshore support. 1 monitor easily beats 2 culverins, even without cards, and that's while they cost the same. and the culvs are supposed to counter warships. tell me any unit which can beat its counter cost for cost. none exist... not even BR do this. and thats talking only about culverins, which are like the best unit in its role for this. chinese hand mortars suck ass. iro light cannons do fine vs non upgraded, but have no chance vs upgraded warships. sioux rifle riders is a complete joke. arrow knights stand no chance what so ever. and normal mortars are way too slow, they can miss and don't have enough los. japanese morutaru are the best probably.

In a realistic game you're not going to stay out of culv range all the time, there are towers, crackshot has colldown and you're not going to use it asap, etc.
Plus land guy should have more eco and can powerplay it at one point.
On EP 2 culvs totally beat a non uppped monitor who crackshots them, because they 2 shot it and monitor has setup time. And that's without even splitting the 2 culvs to avoid the splash damage of crackshot. And we are talking about age3 culvs vs an age4 warship.
Mortars outrange any ship and if the water guy has no vision he can't dodge the projectiles. In a real game he is not in fact going to do that most of times. Also if we want to be nitpicky the mortars guy can just desync the fire of 5 mortars and dodge dance doesnt work anymore.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by noissance »

_H2O wrote:Please remember that warships have stupid cards. That paired with free healing and swingy outcomes means that if your civ doesn't have better cards or even worse your deck doesn't have the same number of water cards you can't expect to win water. I almost wonder if warship cards being rethought entirely would be helpful.

Think about admarilty. How do you beat someone who can build double your army.

Is it possible to make warship healing cost resources? Sort of like building repair
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

lol... typical to argue with you about this, all you say sounds all cool and dandy on paper, but no one does it or can do it in a game. monitors may become available in IV, but theyre not on IV stats that way. like light cannons become available in IV, but are still age3 stats.

you totally oversell the lead you will have as a landplayer. like ports can waterboom with walls and ff at 9 minutes with a 60vil eco. they can keep up eco pop for eco pop with a full blown VC + cree brit boom. I tested it vs aiz and boneng and kynesie did the same. they can easily put out some land units to harass culvs and what not coming to the field. and from there the water player has to do very little to hold the shore with warship support.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

_H2O wrote:Please remember that warships have stupid cards. That paired with free healing and swingy outcomes means that if your civ doesn't have better cards or even worse your deck doesn't have the same number of water cards you can't expect to win water. I almost wonder if warship cards being rethought entirely would be helpful.

Think about admarilty. How do you beat someone who can build double your army.


yea, the problem with water really is warships. its not schooners in 9/10 cases tbh. the only time schooners is going to matter is on a map like hispaniola or indonesia, and on those maps they should matter.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

_H2O wrote:Please remember that warships have stupid cards. That paired with free healing and swingy outcomes means that if your civ doesn't have better cards or even worse your deck doesn't have the same number of water cards you can't expect to win water. I almost wonder if warship cards being rethought entirely would be helpful.

Think about admarilty. How do you beat someone who can build double your army.

Yes the amount of cards and up % is what breaks the balance most of times. That's a problem you don't have on nilla (where towers also bomb fishing boats btw).
Then again warship ups become not viable if they don't grant a certain % (I wouldn't ever send that unless it's my last card in the deck).
Free healing is a big deal, perhaps the biggest factor when it comes to vsing artillery. That's rather easy fix if there are no better solutions.
You do not beat someone who can build double your army. Point is you need that card if you plan to fight on water. Otherwise I assume you plan to win before that card becomes a factor.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

umeu wrote:lol... typical to argue with you about this, all you say sounds all cool and dandy on paper, but no one does it or can do it in a game. monitors may become available in IV, but theyre not on IV stats that way. like light cannons become available in IV, but are still age3 stats.
you totally oversell the lead you will have as a landplayer. like ports can waterboom with walls and ff at 9 minutes with a 60vil eco. they can keep up eco pop for eco pop with a full blown VC + cree brit boom. I tested it vs aiz and boneng and kynesie did the same. they can easily put out some land units to harass culvs and what not coming to the field. and from there the water player has to do very little to hold the shore with warship support.

I takes 500 res to get 25% hp and attack on artillery.
It takes like 2k res to get the same on boats. Warships just have more ups, that's the difference. Altho the artillery and tower x2 multiplier vs ships from arsenal is quite an impactful one. Maybe we could tweak it so that it adds a net +1 vs ships.

I dunno, I talk about my experience. At worst, on a similar map, it should go like this.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:
umeu wrote:lol... typical to argue with you about this, all you say sounds all cool and dandy on paper, but no one does it or can do it in a game. monitors may become available in IV, but theyre not on IV stats that way. like light cannons become available in IV, but are still age3 stats.
you totally oversell the lead you will have as a landplayer. like ports can waterboom with walls and ff at 9 minutes with a 60vil eco. they can keep up eco pop for eco pop with a full blown VC + cree brit boom. I tested it vs aiz and boneng and kynesie did the same. they can easily put out some land units to harass culvs and what not coming to the field. and from there the water player has to do very little to hold the shore with warship support.

I takes 500 res to get 25% hp and attack on artillery.
It takes like 2k res to get the same on boats. Warships just have more ups, that's the difference. Altho the artillery and tower x2 multiplier vs ships from arsenal is quite an impactful one. Maybe we could tweak it so that it adds a net +1 vs ships.

I dunno, I talk about my experience. At worst, on a similar map, it should go like this.


what are you even talking about? 500 res for what. the industrial upgrade? 2k res for what? (its 800 res for 50%, consisdering the high hp base of ships, thats fucking insane) i dont get your point. yes its easier to get the upgrades, and its still hardly enough vs a good water player. artillery is like 1/3rd of the speed of boats. thats the big issue here. if you unpack your artillery while out of range, ships just dodge and go away on most shores. if you come in running and unpack in range, youre gonna get shrekked by special attack. its not like its unwinnable, but its fucking silly how much more res and effort it takes for the land player. water play should mostly revolve around warship fights, imo towers to fight warships, culverins to fight warships, its all a bit silly imo.

the game is ep or re?
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Jaeger »

I just want to know what happened to the "change as little as possible" principle that used to be this core principle. Now the game could be completely changed if france and germany start going on water for example
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

umeu wrote:even without monitors and upgrades from dock, 2 culverins do not beat a frigate with offshore support.

I already expressed my thoughts about this particular home-city shipment, though still, it's only 1-range advantage. I'm inclined to say that the statement above is false.

umeu wrote:what we need is either:

a) a maximum of docks that can be made
b) a maximum of how many fishing boats can be made
c) regulate the above by designing the maps with that in mind.

And how would you set the limits? :roll:

umeu wrote:alternate solutions are:
remove schooners, make fishing boats 50w std. remove whales.
or
schooners reduces cost, but also slightly increases training time.
or
just remove whales all together, but drastically increase normal fish.

Talk about light changes for EP :ugly:
Though the second point may be perhaps worthwhile, somewhat like the Estates card for the British :idea:

Ashvin wrote:Yeah if you see that [Admiralty] card your enemy's deck and you don't have it then it's gg!

I wouldn't say so, rarely does it become a deciding factor, you'd need a water-heavy map for that in addition to late game in which it actually comes into play and players can afford fleets of such a size.

Garja wrote:In a realistic game you're not going to stay out of culv range all the time, there are towers, crackshot has colldown and you're not going to use it asap, etc.
Plus land guy should have more eco and can powerplay it at one point.
On EP 2 culvs totally beat a non uppped monitor who crackshots them, because they 2 shot it and monitor has setup time. And that's without even splitting the 2 culvs to avoid the splash damage of crackshot. And we are talking about age3 culvs vs an age4 warship.
Mortars outrange any ship and if the water guy has no vision he can't dodge the projectiles. In a real game he is not in fact going to do that most of times. Also if we want to be nitpicky the mortars guy can just desync the fire of 5 mortars and dodge dance doesnt work anymore.

I agree :smile:

noissance wrote:Is it possible to make warship healing cost resources? Sort of like building repair

Wouldn't it be a buff actually? To heal warships you have to set them idle for quite some time at home at your docks, whereas with the building-repair-like ability they'd be able to do that anywhere even faster.

Garja wrote:That's a problem you don't have on nilla (where towers also bomb fishing boats btw).

How come no one mentioned that yet? It's a pretty simple solution, really! :D

umeu wrote:artillery is like 1/3rd of the speed of boats. thats the big issue here. if you unpack your artillery while out of range, ships just dodge and go away on most shores. if you come in running and unpack in range, youre gonna get shrekked by special attack. its not like its unwinnable, but its fucking silly how much more res and effort it takes for the land player. water play should mostly revolve around warship fights, imo towers to fight warships, culverins to fight warships, its all a bit silly imo.

A nice idea from the old Improvement Mod — reduce the speed of warships: currently they outpace pretty much every land unit with their ability to turn around smoothly. Not good!
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Imperial Noob »

Whales could have limited coin if it is even a real problem.
Docks not healing is a weird change. It was always cool to see players repairing their stuff.

Adding an "anti-ship attack" with an overstandard range for certain units could do. (think: culvs, falcs, siege ele)
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deadrising78 »

Best solution: make warships do ranged damage to land units and siege damage to ships and buildings. That fixes all problems with artillery vs warships and arrow knights vs warships. All civs could then deal with warships without losing all artillery to lame broadside attacks. Only civ that will struggle is sioux but thats unfixable anyway
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

pecelot wrote:
umeu wrote:even without monitors and upgrades from dock, 2 culverins do not beat a frigate with offshore support.

I already expressed my thoughts about this particular home-city shipment, though still, it's only 1-range advantage. I'm inclined to say that the statement above is false.

umeu wrote:what we need is either:

a) a maximum of docks that can be made
b) a maximum of how many fishing boats can be made
c) regulate the above by designing the maps with that in mind.

And how would you set the limits? :roll:

umeu wrote:alternate solutions are:
remove schooners, make fishing boats 50w std. remove whales.
or
schooners reduces cost, but also slightly increases training time.
or
just remove whales all together, but drastically increase normal fish.

Talk about light changes for EP :ugly:
Though the second point may be perhaps worthwhile, somewhat like the Estates card for the British :idea:

Ashvin wrote:Yeah if you see that [Admiralty] card your enemy's deck and you don't have it then it's gg!

I wouldn't say so, rarely does it become a deciding factor, you'd need a water-heavy map for that in addition to late game in which it actually comes into play and players can afford fleets of such a size.

Garja wrote:In a realistic game you're not going to stay out of culv range all the time, there are towers, crackshot has colldown and you're not going to use it asap, etc.
Plus land guy should have more eco and can powerplay it at one point.
On EP 2 culvs totally beat a non uppped monitor who crackshots them, because they 2 shot it and monitor has setup time. And that's without even splitting the 2 culvs to avoid the splash damage of crackshot. And we are talking about age3 culvs vs an age4 warship.
Mortars outrange any ship and if the water guy has no vision he can't dodge the projectiles. In a real game he is not in fact going to do that most of times. Also if we want to be nitpicky the mortars guy can just desync the fire of 5 mortars and dodge dance doesnt work anymore.

I agree :smile:

noissance wrote:Is it possible to make warship healing cost resources? Sort of like building repair

Wouldn't it be a buff actually? To heal warships you have to set them idle for quite some time at home at your docks, whereas with the building-repair-like ability they'd be able to do that anywhere even faster.

Garja wrote:That's a problem you don't have on nilla (where towers also bomb fishing boats btw).

How come no one mentioned that yet? It's a pretty simple solution, really! :D

umeu wrote:artillery is like 1/3rd of the speed of boats. thats the big issue here. if you unpack your artillery while out of range, ships just dodge and go away on most shores. if you come in running and unpack in range, youre gonna get shrekked by special attack. its not like its unwinnable, but its fucking silly how much more res and effort it takes for the land player. water play should mostly revolve around warship fights, imo towers to fight warships, culverins to fight warships, its all a bit silly imo.

A nice idea from the old Improvement Mod — reduce the speed of warships: currently they outpace pretty much every land unit with their ability to turn around smoothly. Not good!


its not false. special attack can kill way faster,, often can take out 2 culvs in one shot. or take out one and damage the other. and what people forget is that a frigate actually has 5 cannons or so shooting in quite rapid succession. so they can easily take out a culv before it has time to reload the 2nd or 3rd shot.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

With the Offshore Support a frigate deals 240/280 damage to one culverin.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

pecelot wrote:With the Offshore Support a frigate deals 240/280 damage to one culverin.


it also has splash. so that special attack will pretty much low hp both culvs before they are in range. they will then get 1 shot off each, which will do 800 dmg. the frigate then kills both of them before they have reloaded. and even if they somehow manage to reload and get a 2nd hit. the frig will still have 400 hp left. more then enough time to kill the culvs.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

Ye broadside usually snipes off one cannon and damages another one. Just spread cannons and it is less effective. Anyway I dont see the problem, we are talking of big scale games where couple cannons lost is not big deal.
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