Changing water for EP 4

Choose the option that best reflects your opinion on the mentioned changes

The changes are (near) perfect
19
30%
The changes are the right idea, but I think the numbers should be tweaked (reply with how they should be tweaked)
5
8%
I am okay with these changes but I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is even better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I agree with the fishing boat changes, but disagree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
7
11%
I disagree with the fishing boat changes, but agree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
4
6%
I disagree with the changes and I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I don't think we should change water at all
6
10%
I think we should try to balance water through maps alone
11
17%
I would uninstall the patch if these changes were implemented
7
11%
 
Total votes: 63

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European Union Asateo
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Asateo »

Goodspeed wrote:Another thing that would need to happen to water maps is there need to be less fish. Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is.


But if you get less fish and no or very little whales, people who fishboom/send scooners will (if the game lasts) have invested the wood for 'nothing' at one point. You can't reassign fishing boats if there are no resource left...
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

Kynesie wrote:
Goodspeed wrote: Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.

... you can also assume your desires and remove all whales, and remove all water too... And remove all fishing cards ups too..
?
It's frustrating that, after all of my attempts to come up with solid water changes that please as many people as possible, there still seems to be this baseless assumption that I want to destroy water and remove it from the game. It's almost never used as it is. I'm trying to add it to the game, not remove it, but do it in a way that would make it actually enjoyable to play with as well as against. It's okay if you don't want water to change, but then don't expect it to ever become a thing in high level games either, and don't complain when people veto water maps; they are absolutely right to because water is not in a good place right now. You of all people should be for changing it.

Goodspeed wrote:70w fishing boats is an excellent deal, and there are very few civs that wouldn't make use of it.

It can be good with iro, or port. after... 200w+70w for 1 fishing boat, gathering at 0.65 ... It s not as good as the standard land strategies :hmm:
You are quick to assume this. I'm not so sure. Even so, like I said if it's not enough incentive we can tweak it to 60.

Asateo wrote:But if you get less fish and no or very little whales, people who fishboom/send scooners will (if the game lasts) have invested the wood for 'nothing' at one point. You can't reassign fishing boats if there are no resource left...
The investment will have paid off. Currently there are some maps where there is so much food/coin in the water that there is no land eco needed to win the game.
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France Aykin Haraka
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Aykin Haraka »

maybe we need only one whale with only 200 coin it would be very op
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

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Post by WickedCossack »

Goodspeed wrote:It's frustrating that, after all of my attempts to come up with solid water changes that please as many people as possible, there still seems to be this baseless assumption that I want to destroy water and remove it from the game. It's almost never used as it is. I'm trying to add it to the game, not remove it, but do it in a way that would make it actually enjoyable to play with as well as against. It's okay if you don't want water to change, but then don't expect it to ever become a thing in high level games either, and don't complain when people veto water maps; they are absolutely right to because water is not in a good place right now. You of all people should be for changing it.


I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish to increase variety with more active water play. Good intentions are at work and the water crew don't mean to be hostile on purpose. :love:

For a bit of perspective a lot of friction comes from the fact that a large majority of people complaining about water have never really committed to countering it. Instead the "stick your head" in the sand approach has been heavily adopted where you completely ignore the fish boom and hope you win before it takes affect and lose to a giant armada leading to a witty flame to finish the game off with. Followed by "water is broken", "warships too strong."

For the record the best way of countering water has always been pressuring on land & water simultaneously early on and continuing throughout the game choking out the water boomer on both fronts. Contrary to what you say about water games when this occurs it provides more interaction with points of interest happening all over the map. They are really fun to play, to watch and apm intensive. It's rare to find a boring water game between two strong water players who know what they are doing.

Instead of fixing their own play some people would rather would change the game to fix their play. That's frustrating to see someone complain when they have not really tried. They want that magic land unit.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

That's fair enough but the reality is that the vast majority of high level players don't agree with your statement that water games are fun to play, and that they reward skill. Because of this, water games are rare, and that's not going to change on its own. So whether you are right or not doesn't even matter. Something needs to change significantly for water to become part of the meta.
For the record I think there are serious issues with water in this game, but I want to see it become a fun and rewarding style. Of course there are always going to be players who like the style despite it all, but it's the majority that counts in the end.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by WickedCossack »

Goodspeed wrote:The reality is that the vast majority of high level players don't agree with your statement that water games are fun to play, and that they reward skill. Because of this, water games are rare, and that's not going to change on its own. So whether you are right or not doesn't even matter. Something needs to change significantly for water to become part of the meta. For the record I think there are serious issues with water in this game, but I want to see it become a fun and rewarding style. Of course there are always going to be players who like the style despite it all, but it's the majority that counts in the end. Similarly, on RE patch there are plenty of Sioux players.


I didn't blanket statement say water games are fun to play, you ignored the differences between my 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, which was a big point of my post. Of course the water games I described in my second paragraph I can imagine are not fun to play.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

Yes I didn't think it was relevant. You mentioned a scenario that you think is fun to play. It's still equally subjective.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

WickedCossack wrote:Edit: Actually I don't recall exactly when the monitor change happened, and the wall change for that matter which is important.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BU_ ... ma5d9da6b8
EP 1.0:
version 1.0 patch notes


Gameplay changes

General


Wall hitpoints decreased to 1500 (down from 3000).
Bastion improvement effect changed to give 300% wall hitpoints increase (up from 150%).
Wall line of sight decreased to 1.
Elmeti, Mamelukes and Li’l Bombards are now unavailable to train in the Fortress Age.
Hire Egyptian Mamelukes home-city shipment effect changed to give 4 Mamelukes (down from 5).
Monitors cost decreased to 600 wood and 200 coin (down from 800 wood and 200 coin); Long-range Attack ability range decreased to 70 (down from 100) and increased cooldown time to 1 minute 30 seconds (up from 1 minute).


Goodspeed wrote:Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is.

Right, because making fishing boats that will mostly be useless after some time is too OP.

Goodspeed wrote:Another thing that would need to happen to water maps is there need to be less fish. Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is. Otherwise we are forcing players to use it instead of giving them the option. Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.

xD
Then why people still don't play on water on Indonesia?

also:
> the above quote
>
Goodspeed wrote:Either way, the intention is to create more incentive to go water for all civs. Not less.

pick one lol

Goodspeed wrote:Currently there are some maps where there is so much food/coin in the water that there is no land eco needed to win the game.

Like Indonesia, and...?

WickedCossack wrote:For a bit of perspective a lot of friction comes from the fact that a large majority of people complaining about water have never really committed to countering it. Instead the "stick your head" in the sand approach has been heavily adopted where you completely ignore the fish boom and hope you win before it takes affect and lose to a giant armada leading to a witty flame to finish the game off with. Followed by "water is broken", "warships too strong."

For the record the best way of countering water has always been pressuring on land & water simultaneously early on and continuing throughout the game choking out the water boomer on both fronts. Contrary to what you say about water games when this occurs it provides more interaction with points of interest happening all over the map. They are really fun to play, to watch and apm intensive. It's rare to find a boring water game between two strong water players who know what they are doing.

Instead of fixing their own play some people would rather would change the game to fix their play. That's frustrating to see someone complain when they have not really tried. They want that magic land unit.

well said :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

Ye docks are no way near as good as a TC. Limited amount of boats you can make, plus they gather slower.
Water for "land" civs is definetly the less compromising change we can make.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

Take it easy @pecelot you aren't being very constructive.
Goodspeed wrote:Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is.

Right, because making fishing boats that will mostly be useless after some time is too OP.
It depends entirely on the cost of fishing boats. You are about the 10th person who seems to be ignoring that change, and what I've repeatedly said about it: if it's not enough to create incentive, we'll make them cheaper. The intention is to make fishing boats a strong addition to your build.

Goodspeed wrote:Another thing that would need to happen to water maps is there need to be less fish. Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is. Otherwise we are forcing players to use it instead of giving them the option. Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.
xD
Then why people still don't play on water on Indonesia?
xD
Fishing boats currently cost 100w. Anyway, they would if the map wasn't always vetoed and if they actually liked playing water.

also:
> the above quote
>
Goodspeed wrote:Either way, the intention is to create more incentive to go water for all civs. Not less.

pick one lol
I don't follow.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Hidddy_ »

Remove special attack from monitor (or make it equivalent to 2 petard attack), make it such that there can be a max of 16ish boats on whales (4ish whales), half the amount of water food as land food per map, give ships negative multipliers vs land units or give them range attack (not seige attack), the range reduction on ships is good. This makes it such that late-game you can max out on 115 vilis on land + water if you have full water control but does not allow the water player to disregard plantations and land-map control for coin income.

An experimental idea I have for boats is increasing their minimum range. This way, boats that are on the coast can not target the coast. Boats would only be able to target the coast starting at a certain distance away from the coast. This makes things like fighting by the coast less viable imo.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by momuuu »

I think what goodspeed js trying to suggest is making water play out differently rather than suggesting bugs or nerfs. I think there are a lot of people that blatantly dislike water play as of now. I dislike the strength of warships, how hard it is to come back from losing the water or actually eliminating a player with water control and I dislike how all in and unflexible water play is due to how schooners works.

The last point I made doesnt seem well understood. If you ship a card that makes fishing boats as cheap as schooners does, you are all in. Youre waterbooming your balls off and thats it. That doesnt seem strategically inspiring to me. Schooners as a card is boring and makes for one dimensional games imo. The schooners suggestion makes it possible for all civs to water boom. It would add water boom as a strategic option to go for in some scenarios (for example: drawn out game where hunts start running out or a slow game where both sides boom or maybe to have economy in a mu where you expect to be idled a lot) where as right now water booming is something thats really all in and otherwise not even a consideration.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Dsy »

Monitor special shoot just needs 0.x multi vs artillery and you can take back water until that.
But before fix water issues id like to see wall fix. Thats more important.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE »

are people more likely or less likely to go water after these changes? will we get more or less water gameplay?
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Asateo »

Goodspeed wrote:
Asateo wrote:But if you get less fish and no or very little whales, people who fishboom/send scooners will (if the game lasts) have invested the wood for 'nothing' at one point. You can't reassign fishing boats if there are no resource left...
The investment will have paid off. Currently there are some maps where there is so much food/coin in the water that there is no land eco needed to win the game.


I'm happy to see water become more of a possibility. I just think that by eliminating whales, you're pushing people away from water. Instead of encouraging it. That doesn't mean you need to put 20 whales on a map.
If the idea is to make water more viable, killing unlimited coin from whale seems counterproductive.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Dsy »

Since we are animal friendly we could make regular fish infinity also. Reason for it: Its too bad to see people gather them until extinction.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yea i like some of the range changes but the rest make no sense at all, especially when it is only viable on 2 maps
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

Goodspeed wrote:Take it easy @pecelot you aren't being very constructive.

People disagreeing with your view aren't necessarily destructive.

Goodspeed wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is.

Right, because making fishing boats that will mostly be useless after some time is too OP.
It depends entirely on the cost of fishing boats. You are about the 10th person who seems to be ignoring that change, and what I've repeatedly said about it: if it's not enough to create incentive, we'll make them cheaper. The intention is to make fishing boats a strong addition to your build.

I might have misunderstood your intentions; nevertheless, the number of resources on water is already heavily nerfed, you seem to be about the 10th person who has maps like Indonesia or Indochina in mind, while ignoring the current state of Hudson Bay, Manchuria or even Jebel Musa.

Goodspeed wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Another thing that would need to happen to water maps is there need to be less fish. Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is. Otherwise we are forcing players to use it instead of giving them the option. Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.
xD
Then why people still don't play on water on Indonesia?
xD
Fishing boats currently cost 100w. Anyway, they would if the map wasn't always vetoed and if they actually liked playing water.

I doubt the former, each time I play random ESOC maps and Indonesia gets selected my opponents either resign at the start, ignore water or even ask to ignore it from me. In previous tournaments we saw similar shenanigans.

Goodspeed wrote:Take it easy @pecelot you aren't being very constructive.
Goodspeed wrote:Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is.

Right, because making fishing boats that will mostly be useless after some time is too OP.
It depends entirely on the cost of fishing boats. You are about the 10th person who seems to be ignoring that change, and what I've repeatedly said about it: if it's not enough to create incentive, we'll make them cheaper. The intention is to make fishing boats a strong addition to your build.

Goodspeed wrote:Another thing that would need to happen to water maps is there need to be less fish. Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is. Otherwise we are forcing players to use it instead of giving them the option. Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.
xD
Then why people still don't play on water on Indonesia?
xD
Fishing boats currently cost 100w. Anyway, they would if the map wasn't always vetoed and if they actually liked playing water.

also:
> the above quote
>
Goodspeed wrote:Either way, the intention is to create more incentive to go water for all civs. Not less.

pick one lol
I don't follow.

Either an incentive for people to go on water more often or less water resources :chinese:

Jerom wrote:The last point I made doesnt seem well understood. If you ship a card that makes fishing boats as cheap as schooners does, you are all in. Youre waterbooming your balls off and thats it. That doesnt seem strategically inspiring to me. Schooners as a card is boring and makes for one dimensional games imo.

That's looks like a vast oversimplification, does the game automatically end once you've „water-boomed your balls off?"

Hazza54321 wrote:Yea i like some of the range changes but the rest make no sense at all, especially when it is only viable on 2 maps

Now that solves everything :chinese:
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think people didnt really understand that we need to fix water before we have water maps. Obviously once water isn't broken anymore (note that I said broken, not op), we can try to have more water maps.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Darwin_ »

I like the warship changes a lot, but I think another good change would be to put a build limit on docks. I think a build limit that scales (like 1 in age 1, 3 in age 2, and 5 in age 3-5), would be a nice way to limit the speed of the water boom.

My problem with fishing booms is that they can be started and pulled off incredibly fast. You can smack down a few docks in transition to colonial and set yourself up to easily double, most of the time even triple or quadruple your villager production rate within the first few minutes in age 2.

If a dock build limit was put in place, it would limit how quickly one could boom. In addition, if there was a scaling build limit, you could slow down the boom in the early stages, but still allow players to fight over control for sections of water in the later part of the game.

I think another good change for warships would be to give them a consistent rate of fire, as water battles are pretty much decided by sheer mass because its super hard to micro your boats.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

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Post by Kynesie »

Kaiserklein wrote:I think people didnt really understand that we need to fix water before we have water maps. Obviously once water isn't broken anymore (note that I said broken, not op), we can try to have more water maps.

Most of people agree we need a water fix.Even me. I want to play on water map but atm no one want to play water games.
But the proposed changes here are just nerf for something that doesn t need. 100w to 70w fishing boat is more or less unusable , and i can test it with anyone claiming the opposite.

Water eco need to be more attractive than land eco, or nobody will use it. My point of view is 6 fishing boat per age , and heavy water map, and no warships nerfs. Here is the point of discussion.
The low coast for fishing boat/dock - water as standart early strat - lead to a remove of fishing boat up cards/whales gold limit (so useless of fishing boat up cards) and my opinion on this is not good. We need to keep utility of these cards.
And anyway this topic is very poorly done, not asking the point of view of players about water and asking what they think about but impose ridiculous changes on the part of people not using water...

Anyone have other idea about water ? not buffing,not nerfing, just different ?
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

pecelot wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Take it easy @pecelot you aren't being very constructive.

People disagreeing with your view aren't necessarily destructive.
That's not what I meant. You didn't bring any arguments, just threw sarcasm at me.

I might have misunderstood your intentions; nevertheless, the number of resources on water is already heavily nerfed, you seem to be about the 10th person who has maps like Indonesia or Indochina in mind, while ignoring the current state of Hudson Bay, Manchuria or even Jebel Musa.
Even those maps will become all about water if we make fishing boats cheap enough that both civs will want to build them early. The goal is to make this worth it, but not make it so good that the player will disregard land altogether. That's why we need to be careful about having too many resources on the water.

Goodspeed wrote:Fishing boats currently cost 100w. Anyway, they would if the map wasn't always vetoed and if they actually liked playing water.

I doubt the former, each time I play random ESOC maps and Indonesia gets selected my opponents either resign at the start, ignore water or even ask to ignore it from me. In previous tournaments we saw similar shenanigans.
Right, because almost nobody likes to play water. This is not surprising given its current state. For the players who currently like water this may be frustrating, I get that, but the fact remains that water needs to change for the community as a whole to accept it.

Either an incentive for people to go on water more often or less water resources :chinese:
Because the amount of resources on water is somehow the only way to create incentive to go for it? It's not, and it's the wrong way to do it because it encourages the separation of the players' economies and ultimately creates boring games. And yes, I know you may not think they are boring, but I'm going with the majority opinion.
A better way is to make fishing boats (and perhaps docks) cheaper.

Jerom wrote:The last point I made doesnt seem well understood. If you ship a card that makes fishing boats as cheap as schooners does, you are all in. Youre waterbooming your balls off and thats it. That doesnt seem strategically inspiring to me. Schooners as a card is boring and makes for one dimensional games imo.

That's looks like a vast oversimplification, does the game automatically end once you've „water-boomed your balls off?"
It's a simplification but it's accurate and it illustrates one of the biggest issues with water currently.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

I disagree with the majority, you go along with them, I doubt I can add anything more to what I said.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Dsy »

"Even those maps will become all about water if we make fishing boats cheap enough that both civs will want to build them early. The goal is to make this worth it, but not make it so good that the player will disregard land altogether. That's why we need to be careful about having too many resources on the water."

There is a better solution for that i think. You need build limit fishing boats instead of make less fishes on map.

For example:
Changing fishing boat limit to 12 (can be tweaked later if necessary)
Change fishing boats cost to 50w (can be changed later if necessary)

So the idea is basicly make fishing boats cost less until a point its totally viable, however limit its eco potential by using build limits.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

The rework on water resources was already a way to put a natural cap to how many boats you make. Right now the optimal amount on EP maps is 16-20 which I'd say it's a decent number. Considering one or two ups it is about the same of 4 stagrecoach TPs for about 1k wood and a card.
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