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European Union Interjection
ESOC Media Team
Donator 03
Posts: 265
ESO: Interjection
Location: United Kingdom

23 Aug 2017, 11:46

Alright lads (and ladies),

Can’t honestly say I ever thought this day would come.

But alright, we’ve daydreamed about it before. We’ve all committed at least some of our imagination to Age of Empires 4... what that would be, what it would mean to us. All these things. But I think a lot of us stopped hoping a long time ago, I certainly did. I used to say to myself, it doesn’t have to be AOE4, Microsoft. It would just be nice to see AOE3 get some love for a change (even just a balance patch) (please?) (Would that really too much to ask?). Alas, no… years and years... nothing.

But here we all are. Today browsing a fairly niche forum for a title considered a bit of an ugly ducking by many twelve years after it was launched… and yet somehow both are coming. AOE4 and a new AOE3 have been announced.

And that’s what I want to talk about here and with @Zutazuta on our podcast hopefully at the next available opportunity. I want to dispel ugly ducklingism once and for all. I want to make a thing that properly and fully explains exactly why we all here see AOE3 as the best game in the franchise. Not to tell other people why they’re wrong about their favourites. But to properly and fully explain ours. To do it justice for those that will listen.

We’ve done so much here at ESOC. Years of labour, maps, modding, scenarios, unhardcoding, balancing, UI making, casting, posting, shitposting, foruming, streaming, PogChamping. I think it’s important to highlight these things all in the same place too. Not only to celebrate what we came together and made in 12 years, but also to show Microsoft as well.

Basically, I want to say what we love about the game and why, and then in the next vein, talk about all the things we ever made. Why we made them, why they’re important, and most of all, why they should be in AoE3:DE. I want to outline what AoE3:DE should be and what we, the players, want from it. I want ESOC to have a big role in this. That’s my opinion. I think ESOC patch is a good starting point that can only be built up from there. In the words of Zuta, “you just keep iterating”. So please, partly the purpose of this thread was to build a list of things we made. To build a list of ideas of what AOE3:DE should be. I think we need to come together and talk about this and that ESOC should put together a detailed proposal in the form of a document that we can reasonably all back/sign. So please, post away, please read the whole thread, please like other people’s comments to express support. Doing so only help me and others identify what is actually popular or good.

Currently I’m in London for a couple of days celebrating with some old friends, but I had to step aside for a while to write this up (so sorry if these feels rushed). When I get back I’ll comb the thread and summarise in the reserved post below what’s clearly the most important e.g., maps, observer UI, balance patch, etc. I’ll also write up other perhaps interesting ideas but still need debating e.g., 3 new civs/an expansion, new cards/revamping old ones, fixing shit politicians, etc

Finally before I sign off, did I mention HOLY SH*T BALL F**K AOE4 IS COMING? IS THIS EVEN REAL?

-Interjection
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Turkey Mameluke
Dragoon
Posts: 404
ESO: Mameluké
Location: Gym

23 Aug 2017, 12:00

So if I understood correctly you want us to post ideas for the AoE 3 Defintive Edition?

Heres the first and most obvious one I guess: Balance the civs/game!
If you see any mistakes in my grammar/vocabulary or whatever, please correct me. I really appreciate it :!: :flowers:
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United States of America Durokan
ESOC Maps Team
Posts: 895
ESO: Durokan

23 Aug 2017, 12:27

If they stay with the current way of making maps, I'd love additions to the various commands available in RMS, as well as proper documentation (not just stuff taken from AOM's documentaion). It would also be great to have community maps added and a modern interface on the game browser of their choice. It's somewhat assumed that modding and rms will still be available in the DE, but I think it's important to not take them for granted and mention that it would be nice to streamline them, possibly including an integrated mod browser and a hover over text field for when it shows CRC mismatch that would display the the name of the patch causing CRC. (There could be a specific line in the code that is disabled by default and when enabled it shows a changed crc message that would be changed by the patch people.)

Also, it would be nice to have a way to manually set the seed at which a map loads, which should probably make it unrated. It would also be nice to be able to view the seed of the map at the end of the game. This would allow pre-selected map generations for tournaments eliminating the need for restarts, and allow people to replay their favorite spawns of each map, for instance people could play on the exact spawn of a grand finals map from the previous tournament against a friend and play the exact matchup, in effect reliving the finals but with a different outcome.
Check out my Custom Map Workshop here!
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European Union Theodore
Crossbow
Posts: 35

23 Aug 2017, 12:28

No, it's about making sure that the things that are revolutionary about AoE3, like the shipment and home city mechanic, will be preserved and developed. What we don't want is another AoE2. Because AoE 3 is a very different (and arguably better) game
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Japan Aizamk
Lancer
Posts: 737

23 Aug 2017, 12:34

Proper built-in observer mode would be nice. Obviously what I've done can't be integrated into what they have, but depending on how much they're willing to invest in the game, with the source code they can go a lot further than what I've done. I think there's probably still some limitations that they'll have, though, judging from the various workarounds I had to use, but we shall see. Personally I think it'd be a rather big commitment on their part to build an observer mode from the source code, however. We'll have to see from AoE: DE.
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Sweden deadrising78
Skirmisher
Posts: 130
ESO: deadrising78

23 Aug 2017, 12:35

Balance plantations in line with rice paddies
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European Union Asateo
Dragoon
Posts: 426
ESO: Asateo
Location: Belgium

23 Aug 2017, 12:57

Better maps would really be a must. EP maps taken as an example or just over.

Balance water vs land. Nerf warships/monitor.
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
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Turkey Mameluke
Dragoon
Posts: 404
ESO: Mameluké
Location: Gym

23 Aug 2017, 13:08

make new (slightly different) designs for each musketeers/xbow/pikeman/huss and so on, so we can seperate french from brits from dutch from spain and so on by just seeing the unit and it also is not so boring if every unit type looks the same.
If you see any mistakes in my grammar/vocabulary or whatever, please correct me. I really appreciate it :!: :flowers:
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Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 717

23 Aug 2017, 13:30

Better netcode is a must! Also, it would be nice to add some QOL changes to UI.
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Brazil lemmings121
Howdah
Posts: 1757
ESO: lemmings121

23 Aug 2017, 13:53

Since they are probably making a new online server, imo eso should have a few changes, I would eliminate the homecity creation and leveling from multiplayer, and just have everyone start with one of every civ, all unlocked, in practice that woulndt change anything for current players, but new players comming from aoc wouldnt have the entry barrier. As a bonus, we would be able to play 'random' civ.

Built in observer mode is a logical thing to add, And I believe that if they have seen any game made in the last 10 years that will be present in all aoeDE games
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European Union Asateo
Dragoon
Posts: 426
ESO: Asateo
Location: Belgium

23 Aug 2017, 13:54

Better anti-cheat!!!
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
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European Union Interjection
ESOC Media Team
Donator 03
Posts: 265
ESO: Interjection
Location: United Kingdom

23 Aug 2017, 14:32

Here are some fairly obvious ones I thought up, haven't had time to read through the thread yet

Balance patch
Integrate nilla TWC tad game browsers
Make quick search only way to rank up
Fix failed to join game, port forwarding
Fix the shit treasures guarded by way to many guardians, add more
OBS ui
boats/water lag
Fix scenario triggers
Enable Diplomacy
Enable custom home cities in scenario
No Flag ssaraf
Skirmisher
Posts: 175
ESO: robinhood_xing

23 Aug 2017, 14:34

I have always thought of this as a feature that should exist :

In aoe3, when you click on a factory it shows resource per second (5.xx food per second , and when u upgrade it and then click , it shows 7.15 food per second). THIS FEATURE must be extended to all the other static resources (like plantations / mills etc).

Example : When u click on an un-improved mill with 10 gatherers it should show (lets say 5 food per second). Now when we have 6 gatherers , it should say (3 food per second). Now, If I send a card called refrigeration those numbers shud go up by 20% and so on. This feature isn't really that big to implement and it gives a lot of info.

There can be other locations where these numbers can be displayed.

P.S -----> Fix the mill/plantation resource gathering without considering the movement of the villagers on them, they are meant to be static infinite resource locations, and the rate of gathering should only be depending on the number of gatherers (max 10).
European Union Theodore
Crossbow
Posts: 35

23 Aug 2017, 14:36

Just curious: does someone actually have connections to Relic Entertainment or Microsoft?
No Flag ssaraf
Skirmisher
Posts: 175
ESO: robinhood_xing

23 Aug 2017, 14:36

Interjection wrote:Make quick search only way to rank up
wut??
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United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1254
ESO: Anonymous_01
Location: United States

23 Aug 2017, 14:38

I think that for the devs, while EP would be a nice starting point for an official patch to the game, Definitive Edition encompasses a lot more and changes can be a fair bit more substantial. I think that the EP has done a ton of good work in bug removal (iCourt), map balancing, as well as shaping the idea of what competitive aoe3 looks and feels like. However, we are given a great chance to do a lot more and to change things a lot more drastically as Definitive Edition will most likely be marketed as a brand-new game, not so much as a refresh.

Some of the things I personally think should be in DE:
- Elimination of homecity levels in multiplay (credit to lemmings for this idea), or at least remove the hc level requirements on cards and greatly speed-up the rate at which you advance levels (increase post-game XP multipliers or something like that)

- Balancing/removal/replacement of rarely used units/cards/techs. Buffing or replacing Halbs I think is a must as they aren't really ever useful. Grens are situational at best. Rajputs, samurai, keshiks, tashunke prowlers, and a slew of other unique units and mercs are not particularly interesting or useful. There are also tons of homecity cards that I don't think are even situational, they are just bad.

- Making Native TP's stronger/more interesting/less situational. There are a number of nats that are quite nice to get in late-game situations due to powerful techs, and some (like inca or cree) are even pretty good in the early game, will strong techs or abilities. However, with pretty much the only exceptions being Apache (OP goons) and Shaolin (cav that isn't countered by goons), almost all native posts have useless additions to your military. I don't have any super specific ideas right now, but I think that Nats should definitely be subject to change in DE. I don't think that they should be a standard part of every game, but they should at least be a little bit better than situational. Maybe give them XP/res trickles, or allow all nat posts to train a few vills like Cree... idk

- Institute a counter system to naval warfare and make it generally more interesting. One of the things about Aoe3 that makes it so much more interesting that Aoc and other similar games is the inclusion of a clear and decently well-defined counter system among units. Aoc has somewhat of a counter system, but it is a lot more murky for land units. However, Aoe3's counters and tags really only apply to land units, which leads to water being much less interesting. On top of this, naval battles are almost always decided by mass, and not by micro. This is due to the fact that ships are incredibly hard to micro, as well as the fact that their rate of fire is not constant. Again, I don't have super-specific ideas on how to change it, just pointing out that it should be changed.

- Fixing Crate starts. I don't mean giving every civ one crate start or something like that, I just think that the way that crates spawn creates small imbalances in some matchups that make it harder to balance civs overall. Especially for India and Dutch, the two civs where their villagers cost something other than food, crate spawns are a reason why they are (in my opinion), fairly hard to balance. If instead of having a base start with a random food crate as well as a completely random crate, I think it would be better if civs had like 3 or so possible crate starts that were ranked from strongest to weakest. So, when the game loaded, instead of generating the random crates, it would generate whether the civs would get their strongest crate start, their weakest, or the one in between.

- Updating unit and building models. I think that aoe3 has amazing graphics that look spectacular even today, but I think they would be even cooler if civs had unique models for maybe some of their buildings or for their royal guard units. It would be something that would help to make the game look a lot more interesting I think.

- Redefining unit tags. Why are coyote runners light infantry and skirmishers aren't? Why are hussars called light cavalry but then only have the heavy cavalry tag? Currently, the unit tagging system is a little messed up because of the expansions, as well as discrepancies between how units are tagged and how they are described. My idea for changing the tags would be to switch the tags Hand Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry around, as well as classify coyote runners and similar units as their equivalent cavalry tags and adjusting stats accordingly. In addition, ranged counter-infantry would be given the light infantry tag so units like naginata riders wouldnt have to have a 1.5x multiplier vs. infantry as well as a .7 vs. heavy infantry. Instead, they would just have a 1.5 vs. light infantry.

- Remaking the entire map pool and integrating observer (and obs ui), diplomacy, and multiple team functionality into all maps. I think that the optimal number of maps in the pool at release would be around 10-12, and then they could release a new map every few weeks until you get about 20-24.

- ESO and UI changes. I think that eso is nice, but I would love to see more functionality in Quicksearch, as well as more expanded ladders and possibly ELO integration as well. I like the ui for Aoe3 (the shitty ui in Aoe2 is pretty much the main reason why I despise that game), but I think it could be freshened up a little bit, and I would love to see a new aesthetic for it, maybe something clean like the Battlefield 1 ui (that ui is very minimalist and very clean and modern looking, which I think complements the games' setting quite well, and I think the same would hold true into Aoe3)

Of course, I think that balance should be a number 1 priority for the devs.
Hazza54321 wrote:Holy fuck an autobiography
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France kami_ryu
ESOC Community Team
Posts: 1032
ESO: kami_ryu & incognoto
Location: Denver, CO, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Virgo Supercluster

23 Aug 2017, 14:41

ESO revamp is most likely an important feature. Also a difficult one to work on. I don't think p2p will go unfortunately. Better match-making as well.

Balance is important and easy for devs, but devs will have no idea what to balance.

Banning cheaters is important.
[for blue skies, I forgive you].
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 01
Posts: 4760
ESO: Garja

23 Aug 2017, 14:45

In order of relevance:
- prevent cheating
- fix connetivity issues and hopefully have dedicated servers (do w10/xbox games run P2P or server based?)
- improve graphic performance by optimizing hardware usage

- obs mode
- balance patch with major bug fixes

EP is honestly not coherent with such project
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 6879

23 Aug 2017, 14:49

fixing maps should be included with balance patch. and new map releases.
I kissed a girl and I liked it
Popped her cherry with my chapstick
I kissed a girl just to try it
I hope my wife don't mind it
It felt so wrong, it felt so right
Don't mean I'm in love tonight
I kissed a girl and I liked it
I liked it
Germany lordraphael
Howdah
Posts: 1770

23 Aug 2017, 15:13

Garja wrote:In order of relevance:
- prevent cheating
- fix connetivity issues and hopefully have dedicated servers (do w10/xbox games run P2P or server based?)
- improve graphic performance by optimizing hardware usage

- obs mode
- balance patch with major bug fixes

EP is honestly not coherent with such project

actually i do agree. Civ balance really is not that important if you think about it. Revamped maps would already improve balance and are very easy to integrate. That being said Id still hope for a few true balance changes to happen. Still other propblems garja mentioned are a lot more urgent than having great balance ( which again can be improved by introducing good maps without much effort ).
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Wales CelticCrusader
Dragoon
Posts: 248
ESO: CelticCrusader
Location: Sheep Land

23 Aug 2017, 15:19

Just a few of my ideas for AOE3 DE

1. Better anti-cheat measures- This is important, even a lowly sergeant I have come across quite a few of them.

2. Better variety of balanced maps- This is obvious to anyone half decent who plays RE patch. The map should not determine the outcome of the game which in many cases it does on RE. Also one criticism of AOE3 is that the maps are small, I personally like the smaller maps, but others don't. Why not have an extra map set/size? This would please the turtle type players, and probably the more casual players too. AOE2 has better options for map size and style so why not AOE3.

3. Better Civ balance - This is obvious again, it is one of the main criticisms of AOE3 that its not balanced, if AOE3 DE is balanced whilst still having the uniqueness of each civ then I am sure more players would be happy.

4. UI/Observer mode - Thanks to Aizamk we have already had the pleasure of experiencing this, but imagine something similar built into the game, it would be a great feature to have.

5. In game voice chat feature - I am not programmer, so I have no idea how feasible this is, but imagine being able to communicate with team mates freely without typing, it might actually make me more inclined to play team, as currently I am not a huge fan of team games beacause other players dont really communicate well with each other.

6. Revamp the Clans feature - For me clans don,t really do much . Why not have a clan ladder/leaderboard ? This would encourage more competitive action instead of people playing unrated . Also bring back the medals feature and you could also award medals for clans too.

7. Balance building costs - Mainly plantations to be honest, I see no reason why they cost 800 wood and a mill costs 400.

8. Better servers or fix ESO - It would be great if the game wasn't p2p connection, im not sure if they will change it. Even if they don't get new servers then they need to fix eso with all the failed to join issues, lag, account recovery etc. I bet AOE3 DE comes out on windows store and xbox live multi player though. Sounds fine unless you have actually used the windows store and xbox app, both are not great and full of bugs from my experience. Right now my xbox app crashes on launch and after trying about a dozen so called' fixes' still bugged. If the game is on xbox live multi player, they seriously need to fix the xbox app pronto. Otherwise it will really put a lot of players off buying it.

9. Workshop like steam- This would be a great feature. I love that when I play AOE 2, if im bored of the base game I can just add a mod with zero fuss. AOE3 doesnt even have this on steam but if Microsoft could make something similar available it would be amazing.

10. Fix existing bugs, exploits and glitches - Well there are many to list so I won't. But the EP has already fixed many so a team should be able to do this no problem.

11. Active Support - This is a key issue. I have saw many on steam ask, 'does aoe3 have mod support ? ' I answer no, and they immediately dont want to buy the game. As with the issue of cheaters no support lets them thrive. Also gamers like to feel appreciated and not abandoned , after all its gamers that are the lifeblood of the game.

12. E-Sports - As E-sports has blown up since the orginal aoe3 was released, I would love to see officially sponsored esports events. I would bring the hype and I bet many old pros would be back in training for it. With the way gaming is today, a game with no e-sports doesn't attract the hardcore talented gamers, many just go and play other competitive e-sports games. Wouldn't It be awesome to see a tourney with all the old pros and the new pros battling it out ?

13. Built in Twitch streaming - AOM EE has this why not aoe3? Would be a fantastic feature which would encourage more aoe3 streams.

14. More Taunts ! - Because why not ? More taunts equals more fun .

15. A few more civs - I know balancing would be harder, but a little more would be nice. I personally think the Swedes and the Italians should be in . They were supposedly planned for the original aoe3 I heard. Why not ? They were relevant during the time period .

16. More campaigns- The one thing I love about aoe2 over aoe3 is the variety of campaigns. Although I enjoyed the aoe3 campaigns, they need more depth and variety.

17. FFA diplomacy like on the EP - I like this feature, but it doesn't have as much use as it should, primarily because most players don't play the esoc patch. If it was in the main game it would be accessible to all and would definitely see a lot of use imo.

18. The ability to have more than one team - This has already been achieved by Rikkipu , but built in it would be great. Its basically a whole new game mode.

19. Continued support for the game - This is very much needed. We need to have a dialogue with Microsoft and Forgotten Empires to continue balancing the game, identifying bugs, exposing cheaters and exploits.

20. Building rotator works for everyone ! - I know the building rotator was initially meant to be in the game but supposedly it didn't work for mac users, which is why you cant access the feature online without modding. This should be there for everyone to use.

21. Advanced zoom levels - I feel this will be added , as AOE DE is getting this already. Hopefully we do too.

I know I dont ask for much, I may edit this and add more if I can think of any :)
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Sweden Gendarme
ESOC Dev Team
Donator 02
Posts: 2350
ESO: Gendarme

23 Aug 2017, 15:29

Revamping the recording of games would be a great thing too. Why not record all games and give us the choice to save them after the game is over like in SC2? Hopefully old AoE3 recs will be compatible with AoE3: DE, but that is probably too much to ask.
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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European Union bwinner1
Dragoon
Posts: 310

23 Aug 2017, 15:58

In my opinion, we did a great work with the ep. I think that the guys who will make the de should be awar about everything we made and think for each change if it has to be include.
So, as garja said : maps, the aiz ui, bug fix (for balance) and anti-cheat are the most importants. Though I wonder why not just using all balance changes from ep ?



For why I love aoe3 :

About aoe in general :
-because it's a pure str which is a nice mix of mechanic skills and reflexion skills
-I like the age up thing, which add strategicak decision with when to do this

Why aoe3 is the one I prefere :
-A lot faster : I played aoe2 recently and this game is sooo slow, I felt like playing treaty.
In aoe3, the ration attack/life of units is more important, so the game are quicker. You also developpe yourself quicker (like a ff in aoe3 is 7-8 min age up where it's 20 mins at least in aoe2). In the end a game in aoe3 is arround 12 mins long in average, whereas it must be at least 40min in average in aoe2.
-Cards add a lot of strategy. Saddly, a lot of people from aoe2/aom misunderstand them I think. They think the lvl of HC is important in aoe3 and so that's not a real str (like an experimented player would have advantage from his HC) which is not true because everyone have a lvl 50 HC online which is enought.
-The snare mechanisme. This is something I really hate in aoe2 : there is no snare effect. This make it harder to escape, so people have to be more carreful about the fight you take.
-The gestion of villagers. It's kinda easier than in other aoe. And to be honnest I prefere it in most points, like mils for instance are a pain in aoe2, I am not interresting in taking all the time to rebuild mils. Though I understand that people from aoe2 prefere when villagers have to come back with the ress to the tc/a camp to have the ress. I like this mechanic.
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Spain yoqpasa
Dragoon
Posts: 467
ESO: yoqpasa

23 Aug 2017, 16:02

I can add some:
-Fix backherding.
-Ping number on every player.
-Warrior priests coming from firepit need a spawn point which could be set on the firepit itself.
-Improved chat. I hate when I type to anyone and he starts a game, my messages won't pop out after the game unless he opens a ''whisper''.
-Unrated QS same as SC2.
-Walls: remove siege bug and give pillars or segemts a cost proportional to their lenght.
-Random civ available, even knowing it's hard since you don't pick a civ but a HC.
-Agra hotkeys.
-Make Germans less tp-map dependant by removing XP handicap and nerfing another thing.
-Negative bonus against villagers for scouts and native warriors from treasures.
:pop: An average ESOican :pop:
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Brazil lemmings121
Howdah
Posts: 1757
ESO: lemmings121

23 Aug 2017, 16:07

ssaraf wrote:
Interjection wrote:Make quick search only way to rank up
wut??


Its not a bad idea tbh, it eliminates the noob bashers and those guys who only play GP oto, if you want a game more competitive thats probably a good idea (sc2 already does that, only qs games are rated there) but im not sure if thats what we want for aoe3, a lot of the public is more casual, and arguably, forgeting the casuals is what lead sc2 to a decline.

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