AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by lordraphael »

EAGLEMUT wrote:Nice, looks like you've been putting a lot of work into this. :flowers:

Here are some nitpicks and my thoughts:
Weather you purchase the expansion or not

Whether*

Whilst it may be an expensive feature to develop, it is categorically necessary. Without it, users may not fully switch to AOE3:DE (at least where competitive/tournaments are concerned) and YouTube/Stream content will die out leading to the eventual death of the game.

I wouldn't necessary expect the existing Observer UI to stop working on AoE3:DE. Would still be nice if they could implement a more "native" one that performs better and is built-in, yes.

The player will not be able to hear useful game sounds such as the siren for when they are being attacked, the sound for a batch of units being created, a shipment arriving, etc. Strangely though, if the player is streaming, all the sounds will still be audible to the viewers.

Pretty sure this is incorrect, the sounds are bugged on stream just as much. I've witnessed it on kami's stream a couple weeks ago.
Also, it may be of interest that it appears this can currently be fixed by permanently disabling music sound in the game.

The sound reset will only occur if the client is tabbed out once a match has started, tabbing out of the ESO lobby for example will not cause this bug to trigger (needs verification).

It does trigger in the lobby as well. As far as I know, it just triggers always, unless you have the sound already on max.

Fixing the backherding bug would be nice

As others have mentioned, "backherding" is an intended game mechanic, preventing a player from herding any hunt too far from its initial location. Upon reaching a certain distance from the starting point, a hunt will "reset" and attempt to run back in the starting point direction. I guess one could say it's kind of like a treasure guardian not following you across the whole map, but resetting after a certain distance instead.

Better Settings Optimisation

Great point that I don't see brought up often enough. The default settings are like 90% wrong, it's really a shame most of them are the opposite of what they should be.

Attack move bug, usually functions fine but can sometimes do nothing

Yep, it's sometimes buggy. Afaik when a hero dies a-move usually gets very messed up in particular.

Enable the ability to reselect your deck if you have not sent a shipment yet

Don't think I agree with this. When I check my opponent's deck, I don't want to be surprised by him switching to a different one. This could lead to endless deck-switching battles in age1, where both players try to counter each other' decks.

I have Sound disabled and i have The bug at least one time whenever i Play aoe
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by gamevideo113 »

Garja wrote:Also we should consider a minimal balance patch with 1-2 max changes per civs plus a couple of general changes.

I don't think that it needs to be minimal. Fan made patches are limited in this regard because they need to be accepted by the community, otherwise they will fail. For example EP in the very first place has a minimal approach to balancing. An official patch instead has the potential to solve a lot more issues because it is enforced and it does not need to gain acceptance as much as a fan patch does. As long as the changes are thoughtful and backed by solid points, i think that the community should push/aim for the best possible balance patch, without worrying about not changing too much.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

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Post by Mitoe »

gamevideo113 wrote:
Garja wrote:Also we should consider a minimal balance patch with 1-2 max changes per civs plus a couple of general changes.

I don't think that it needs to be minimal. Fan made patches are limited in this regard because they need to be accepted by the community, otherwise they will fail. For example EP in the very first place has a minimal approach to balancing. An official patch instead has the potential to solve a lot more issues because it is enforced and it does not need to gain acceptance as much as a fan patch does. As long as the changes are thoughtful and backed by solid points, i think that the community should push/aim for the best possible balance patch, without worrying about not changing too much.

I think he's more concerned that asking for too much increases the likelihood that they just ignore us (correct me if I'm wrong, Garja).

Also the problem with making a large balance patch is that we create large imbalances that we don't get the opportunity to fix with a subsequent patch, as we don't even know if they will agree to provide anymore patches after this one.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by Garja »

Yes exactly. Some of the EP changes are meta based. Meta evolves, changes become useless.
I think tho we can adopt many of the EP changes in an hypothetical official patch since EP itself is not too far from being minimal.

EDIT:
Just made a tour at FE site and they seem to actually work a lot on current AOE games they made in terms of patching so that's promising.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by gamevideo113 »

Garja wrote:Yes exactly. Some of the EP changes are meta based. Meta evolves, changes become useless.
I think tho we can adopt many of the EP changes in an hypothetical official patch since EP itself is not too far from being minimal.

EDIT:
Just made a tour at FE site and they seem to actually work a lot on current AOE games they made in terms of patching so that's promising.


Don't get your hopes up, they don't patch very often and sometimes (Age of Mythology) they don't patch at all. It's not just FE though, it's also Skybox.
Btw i heard some FE guys say that they don't know if they will handle AoE3 DE, as they have very little experience with it.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by Interjection »

Mitoe wrote:Love the writeup. As someone above me mentioned, a priority list would help a lot in ensuring the most important points are included in the DE.

I only disagree on two things:

1) Backherding is not actually a bug: herds are designed to remain within a certain radius from their starting location, and will return that way when moved too far from that location. This is important because it emphasizes the important of map control, and you can't simply herd every single hunt you have on your side of the map to a safe location, you have to create a safe location around it to gather from. Backherding was a big problem on the official RE maps because the hunt spawns were far too random/bad, but on ESOC maps backherding is almost non-existent as is. Perhaps a very slight increase in the radius hunts can move from their starting position would be a decent QoL change to prevent backherds when there are minor map-screws, but removing the mechanic altogether is unnecessary and potentially even harmful, in my opinion.

2) I disagree about building rotation being included. I know that this is a controversial point within the community, but I actually strongly disagree with the sentiment that "It adds another line of depth to the game with regards to base defence and simcitying": If anything, I think it actually removes a degree of depth from base-building, as you no longer have to think as much about where or how you place your buildings, you simply rotate them into the most advantageous position regardless of the situation.

Building rotation is great for scenario building and singleplayer, but I personally believe it has no place in competitive play.



Thank you Mitoe, you have swayed me on both issues. I think your explanation is enough to remove those points from the document.

Now that you mention it, I haven't experienced backherding on any EP map that I can remember.

I think a priority list is a good idea too
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by jonasnee »

not sure if it has been mentioned but i would like to get a fix for villagers being stuck in mills and plantations.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by lemmings121 »

Enable the ability to reselect your deck if you have not sent a shipment yet

Don't think I agree with this. When I check my opponent's deck, I don't want to be surprised by him switching to a different one. This could lead to endless deck-switching battles in age1, where both players try to counter each other' decks.


Yea I think thats true. no real advantage in adding a change in the game just for the sake of changing. imo just pay atention and select the right deck, no need to enable reselect.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by Mitoe »

lemmings121 wrote:
Enable the ability to reselect your deck if you have not sent a shipment yet

Don't think I agree with this. When I check my opponent's deck, I don't want to be surprised by him switching to a different one. This could lead to endless deck-switching battles in age1, where both players try to counter each other' decks.


Yea I think thats true. no real advantage in adding a change in the game just for the sake of changing. imo just pay atention and select the right deck, no need to enable reselect.

Agreed.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by bobabu »

Do dedicated servers eliminate the problem of p2p lagging, like we see in other games like dota? So that if someone laggs only the person with the laggs is experiencing laggs.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

i want 3 new civs. that will get me to buy.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

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treaty as main playmode.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by bobabu »

I would like to see that you can still host vanilla games, but they are in the same browser and can be accessed by everybody.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by supernapoleon »

I hope that every civ needs to build wonders in order to age up. It would add much depth to the game.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

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Post by WickedCossack »

bobabu wrote:I would like to see that you can still host vanilla games, but they are in the same browser and can be accessed by everybody.


There's a lot of talk of unifying all the player base which sounds great yet I'm not entirely clear on what everyone means.

From what I understand when aoe3 DE is released it will be a single game with all the original content in addition to new balance, maps, bug fixes, ui fixes and so on ...

You wouldn't be launching "aoe3 DE nilla", you'd just launch the single (definitive ) game and everything will be awesome. How would you even begin to host a nilla game? Disable 6 civs, all balance, maps, bug fixes? Would there even be a desire any longer? Most peoples motivations to play nilla come from either not owning TAD or their perceived shortcomings around TAD civs, balance, maps etc which DE handled correctly would nullify.

Now the other point regarding unification is should the DE browser/server/interface, whatever it is, be able to interact with players who do not own the DE? Through only messaging and ability to see friends online? Across different servers? I don't see with all the changes how it would be compatible to play with someone who does not own the DE or is this what people are talking about? That sounds to me like an impossible amount of work.

I'm not convinced people have fully thought through what they precisely want with this request?
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by _NiceKING_ »

WickedCossack wrote:Now the other point regarding unification is should the DE browser/server/interface, whatever it is, be able to interact with players who do not own the DE? Through only messaging and ability to see friends online? Across different servers? I don't see with all the changes how it would be compatible to play with someone who does not own the DE

DE will use ESO Xbox Live
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by WickedCossack »

_NiceKING_ wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Now the other point regarding unification is should the DE browser/server/interface, whatever it is, be able to interact with players who do not own the DE? Through only messaging and ability to see friends online? Across different servers? I don't see with all the changes how it would be compatible to play with someone who does not own the DE

DE will use ESO Xbox Live


In which case unification is a total non issue.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by EAGLEMUT »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:i want 3 new civs. that will get me to buy.

Highly unlikely. I don't expect any new content to be released as part of the initial DEs, since that's also the case for AoE1:DE.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by MCJim »

Great write-up @Interjection. It's good that someone of the community took this initiative. For me the question is if you can manage them to read this; I hope so.

I think you forgot to mention the following:
- Walls should be improved so that people stop deleting pillars to save wood.
- Idle vills on berries without getting the notification should be fixed.
- The most important visual improvements need an improvement like boats that sail into each other, the trading post train that reaches the end of the trade route and disappears one by one and that units can walk through a trading post travois or train.
- Remove the bug on ESO that you can turn off "custom maps" while you're not even the host. (This is a minor problem, but Microsoft should be aware of it.)

Also, is this sentence the truth? It's about the ingame sound bug. "Strangely though, if the player is streaming, all the sounds will still be audible to the viewers." I remember watching streams and realising people having a sound bug. I also don't think this sentence is true: "The sound reset will only occur if the client is tabbed out once a match has started, tabbing out of the ESO lobby for example will not cause this bug to trigger." I think this is always the case.

I'm also in favor of adding the building rotator and removing the backherds. I'm against making Quick Search/matchmaking the only way to rank up.

Furthermore, I'd like to give my opinion how important it is (to me) that the ESO platform keeps existing.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

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Post by Mitoe »

MCJim wrote:- Walls should be improved so that people stop deleting pillars to save wood.

Personally, I disagree with this. I feel like it's a small way for skilled players to differentiate themselves from weaker players.

I'm also pretty sure this sort of change would break the current wall mechanic. Not sure how small walls would work?
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by bobabu »

WickedCossack wrote:
bobabu wrote:I would like to see that you can still host vanilla games, but they are in the same browser and can be accessed by everybody.


There's a lot of talk of unifying all the player base which sounds great yet I'm not entirely clear on what everyone means.

From what I understand when aoe3 DE is released it will be a single game with all the original content in addition to new balance, maps, bug fixes, ui fixes and so on ...

You wouldn't be launching "aoe3 DE nilla", you'd just launch the single (definitive ) game and everything will be awesome. How would you even begin to host a nilla game? Disable 6 civs, all balance, maps, bug fixes? Would there even be a desire any longer? Most peoples motivations to play nilla come from either not owning TAD or their perceived shortcomings around TAD civs, balance, maps etc which DE handled correctly would nullify.

Now the other point regarding unification is should the DE browser/server/interface, whatever it is, be able to interact with players who do not own the DE? Through only messaging and ability to see friends online? Across different servers? I don't see with all the changes how it would be compatible to play with someone who does not own the DE or is this what people are talking about? That sounds to me like an impossible amount of work.

I'm not convinced people have fully thought through what they precisely want with this request?


Well, there are a lot of players who play nilla and own tad. Your point that balance changes would change their perception is irrational. Everybody has a different opinion on balance. Some players prefer the old balances some the new. I am thinking about a browser where you can simply host a nilla game or a tad game. There will be an indicator of what type of game it is, and you can join both from the same browser. This is the only way of actually getting different player bases with different mindsets together. For a casual player, this is also the best option since he can easily find a game. The casual player doesn't care about balances changes. Aoe 3 de should consider the casual players.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by WickedCossack »

bobabu wrote:Well, there are a lot of players who play nilla and own tad. Your point that balance changes would change their perception is irrational. Everybody has a different opinion on balance. Some players prefer the old balances some the new. I am thinking about a browser where you can simply host a nilla game or a tad game. There will be an indicator of what type of game it is, and you can join both from the same browser. This is the only way of actually getting different player bases with different mindsets together. For a casual player, this is also the best option since he can easily find a game. The casual player doesn't care about balances changes. Esoc lost the connection to casual gamers a long time ago which is the reason why it is failing.


I thought one reason why some people play nilla is for it's particular brand of balance. So by definition balance changes would change their perception? I don't understand your irrationality argument here.

More to the point though I don't understand how you would host a nilla game on DE though. I think some people have the idea it's a patch like the EP where you log on and you just have a different icon next to your name?

Balance changes won't be a big feature in the DE I suspect anyways, it will more be UI improvements, QOL, bug fixes, sleek interfaces, maps, new servers, better connections. Any balance would just be an added bonus. They'd have to then uncode all of that and add tick box that means you can't select 6 civs just so you could host a nilla game which doesn't sound like a good investment of time.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

I do expect AoE3:DE to include balance changes, again judging by AoE1:DE.
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by MCJim »

Mitoe wrote:
MCJim wrote:- Walls should be improved so that people stop deleting pillars to save wood.

Personally, I disagree with this. I feel like it's a small way for skilled players to differentiate themselves from weaker players.

I'm also pretty sure this sort of change would break the current wall mechanic. Not sure how small walls would work?

In my opinion, people started playing the wall game in a way that was never intended by the makers. It was a mistake to make walls like this, apart from the costs. It makes the game uglier, people don't play it like it was first intended and it costs too much time for simply a wall. And yea, it reduces skill, but I don't think a player is more appreciated because of his 'smart wall skills!'
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Re: AOE3:DE Proposal To Microsoft

Post by watching »

Mitoe wrote:Love the writeup. As someone above me mentioned, a priority list would help a lot in ensuring the most important points are included in the DE.

I only disagree on two things:

1) Backherding is not actually a bug: herds are designed to remain within a certain radius from their starting location, and will return that way when moved too far from that location. This is important because it emphasizes the important of map control, and you can't simply herd every single hunt you have on your side of the map to a safe location, you have to create a safe location around it to gather from. Backherding was a big problem on the official RE maps because the hunt spawns were far too random/bad, but on ESOC maps backherding is almost non-existent as is. Perhaps a very slight increase in the radius hunts can move from their starting position would be a decent QoL change to prevent backherds when there are minor map-screws, but removing the mechanic altogether is unnecessary and potentially even harmful, in my opinion.

2) I disagree about building rotation being included. I know that this is a controversial point within the community, but I actually strongly disagree with the sentiment that "It adds another line of depth to the game with regards to base defence and simcitying": If anything, I think it actually removes a degree of depth from base-building, as you no longer have to think as much about where or how you place your buildings, you simply rotate them into the most advantageous position regardless of the situation.

Building rotation is great for scenario building and singleplayer, but I personally believe it has no place in competitive play
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