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Netherlands Goodspeed
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05 Oct 2017, 15:32

deadrising78 wrote:Why are people even discussing changing the entire game by removing cards/deck? Wtf
To make the game more appealing to AoE fans who wrote it off before. Decks have always been something people were particularly critical about.
And it wouldn't be as impactful as you might think.
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Sweden deadrising78
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05 Oct 2017, 15:43

Goodspeed wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:Why are people even discussing changing the entire game by removing cards/deck? Wtf
To make the game more appealing to AoE fans who wrote it off before. Decks have always been something people were particularly critical about.
And it wouldn't be as impactful as you might think.


Yes it would. It would fuck up civ balance severely. The game wouldnt be appealing to those who like it as it is without decks. It cant and wont fit everybody
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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05 Oct 2017, 17:47

deadrising78 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:Why are people even discussing changing the entire game by removing cards/deck? Wtf
To make the game more appealing to AoE fans who wrote it off before. Decks have always been something people were particularly critical about.
And it wouldn't be as impactful as you might think.
Yes it would. It would fuck up civ balance severely.
I honestly don't understand how anyone could possibly think that. 99% of sup games end before this becomes relevant. Please explain how it would fuck up civ balance severely.
The game wouldnt be appealing to those who like it as it is without decks. It cant and wont fit everybody
While true, I am not at all worried we would lose players over something like this. I think we would gain some though, and gaining players should be our primary pursuit with this DE imo.
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Canada Mitoe
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05 Oct 2017, 17:51

deadrising78 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:Why are people even discussing changing the entire game by removing cards/deck? Wtf
To make the game more appealing to AoE fans who wrote it off before. Decks have always been something people were particularly critical about.
And it wouldn't be as impactful as you might think.


Yes it would. It would fuck up civ balance severely. The game wouldnt be appealing to those who like it as it is without decks. It cant and wont fit everybody

I'm not sure but it sounds like you may be misunderstanding. The discussion isn't about removing cards from the game, only the deck system. This would mean when you go to send a shipment in game you have access to every single card from the homecity instead of the usual selection of 25 cards you'd have at the moment.

It seems like it has the potential to be a decent change but I'm still skeptical of it.
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05 Oct 2017, 18:19

Mitoe wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:
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Yes it would. It would fuck up civ balance severely. The game wouldnt be appealing to those who like it as it is without decks. It cant and wont fit everybody

I'm not sure but it sounds like you may be misunderstanding. The discussion isn't about removing cards from the game, only the deck system. This would mean when you go to send a shipment in game you have access to every single card from the homecity instead of the usual selection of 25 cards you'd have at the moment.

It seems like it has the potential to be a decent change but I'm still skeptical of it.

I understand that you dont want to remove it from game and just remove decks. But its still stupid and a waaay to big change for a remake. Some civs would be so much better with this change and some would not benefit as much and thats why its stupid. Imagine japan not having to cut eco cards for military cards and france having acces to all eco cards late game, not having to cut them out for military cards. Russia would not benefit as much from age 2 play since everybody has acces to all age 2 uppgrades cards. Also remember japan can send unit shipments twice. Civs without many eco cards would be so much worse (iro, sioux etc)
No that would be a unnecasary, stupid potentially game destroying change. Walls and water lame would only increase with this. I would probably stop playing DE efter some games with this change
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Turkey HUMMAN
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05 Oct 2017, 18:23

Yeah one thing matters is sometimes u have to age up depending on your deck. Think russia vs any fortress civ, it its such a buff against russia since they can have also have decent colonial. It changes meta, as h20 said dont know if its a good or bad change but going blind lets have a try is not wise.
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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05 Oct 2017, 19:36

Mitoe wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Yes it would. It would fuck up civ balance severely. The game wouldnt be appealing to those who like it as it is without decks. It cant and wont fit everybody

I'm not sure but it sounds like you may be misunderstanding. The discussion isn't about removing cards from the game, only the deck system. This would mean when you go to send a shipment in game you have access to every single card from the homecity instead of the usual selection of 25 cards you'd have at the moment.

It seems like it has the potential to be a decent change but I'm still skeptical of it.


Is it possible to try this out potentially with an extended deck like you can make in LAN games, but with EP?
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05 Oct 2017, 20:20

deadrising78 wrote:I understand that you dont want to remove it from game and just remove decks. But its still stupid and a waaay to big change for a remake. Some civs would be so much better with this change and some would not benefit as much and thats why its stupid. Imagine japan not having to cut eco cards for military cards and france having acces to all eco cards late game, not having to cut them out for military cards. Russia would not benefit as much from age 2 play since everybody has acces to all age 2 uppgrades cards. Also remember japan can send unit shipments twice. Civs without many eco cards would be so much worse (iro, sioux etc)
No that would be a unnecasary, stupid potentially game destroying change. Walls and water lame would only increase with this. I would probably stop playing DE efter some games with this change

I agree with you for the most part. There are a couple of things that would be cool about the change though; like having the option to send cards you normally wouldn't fit in your deck (like ATP, or Evening Star for Sioux, etc.) if the situation is right for it. Although sadly I don't think that's enough justification for the change either.

@JakeyBoyTH Yes... in a sense, but you won't be able to have more than 11 cards per age, which wouldn't be able to simulate it accurately enough. There would still be a lot of very situational cards you wouldn't be able to fit into your deck.
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Italy Garja
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05 Oct 2017, 20:45

You can always make multiple decks for different situations. I mean the deck mechanic serve exactly this purpose.
I agree that such change would fuck up the game pretty bad. I don't mind having this option as a different game mode.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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05 Oct 2017, 20:49

Thing is there need to be "radical" changes for people to give this game another try. And this change seems radical to outsiders but isn't. That's why it works.
Simple quality of life improvements won't get people to think " :hmm: I didn't like this game before but now that they changed this and that I might give it another try".
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05 Oct 2017, 21:11

Goodspeed wrote:Thing is there need to be "radical" changes for people to give this game another try. And this change seems radical to outsiders but isn't. That's why it works.
Simple quality of life improvements won't get people to think " :hmm: I didn't like this game before but now that they changed this and that I might give it another try".

Removing level restrictions is "radical" enough, imo.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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05 Oct 2017, 21:13

And here I was thinking I'm the one scared of change :P
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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05 Oct 2017, 21:15

Goodspeed wrote:Thing is there need to be "radical" changes for people to give this game another try. And this change seems radical to outsiders but isn't. That's why it works.
Simple quality of life improvements won't get people to think " :hmm: I didn't like this game before but now that they changed this and that I might give it another try".


Regarding the HC system I think the leveling process was by the far the main barrier to entry that put a lot of people off and still does. Without the XP mod you do have to spend maybe a couple of months (!!!) playing pretty regularly to even get a level 50 HC. Then because you're a noob you didn't realise you were supposed to use an Asian city and well fuck this game.

Despite being such a simple and easy change it has huge, and RADICAL repercussions. :lol:

The vast majority of the hate directed at the HC system from other communities I've looked at is targeted towards the leveling system.

131 decks doesn't add anything for me and personally I enjoy looking at the enemy deck and seeing what military shipments they have left, what capabilities do they have right now? etc and planning a little around that in the game.

I could get behind making a few more cards viable but I like that you need a deck.

Edit: Ah eagle beat me to it, zzzz.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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05 Oct 2017, 21:19

Yeah the HC levels are a nobrainer and would definitely get us some players but I don't think it's enough to convince the bulk of the naysayers. Or maybe it would, but not the ones we most want to convince. Not the ones that would actually stick around. The HC leveling system is only an issue for casual players, after all.
My judgement on that may be off but it feels that way having read a lot of the criticism. Anyway it's not either or.
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05 Oct 2017, 21:19

WickedCossack wrote:Edit: Ah eagle beat me to it, zzzz.

Still nice that you replied in more detail.
Those thoughts mirror mine.
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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05 Oct 2017, 21:33

@Mitoe do you think with the UnHardCode patch team would be able to help in this regard?
I believe there is a certain miniuimap replacement 'tool' which provides a similar functionality - although all cards in all ages for all civs, this could be limited with a little bit of coding and implemented perhaps in a special version of EP as a trial. @noissance may be able to help here as well.

I think this is very interesting to investigate, rather than simply saying it will 'fuck up the game' as you still have limited shipments and I imagine most early portions of the game might not be affected.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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05 Oct 2017, 21:34

Goodspeed wrote:Yeah the HC levels are a nobrainer and would definitely get us some players but I don't think it's enough to convince the bulk of the naysayers. My judgement on that may be off but it feels that way having read a lot of the criticism. Anyway it's not either or.


It addresses the main criticism of the HC system.

The other minor criticisms won't be alleviated in my opinion by changing a 25 deck to a 131 card deck. That's quite overwhelming for a new player no? In the middle of a fast paced game and you have to choose from 131 cards and wonder wtf was that card the enemy sent from one of other 13 civs each with 131 cards? How long is that going to take to learn?

I don't see the change addressing a big problem we have atm for current players or for prospective players.

The one criticism I did see that your change would help is that you shouldn't have to do anything to get ready to play, just install log on and go.

The other criticisms I saw against HC's were people not liking units spawning out of nowhere and that an RTS game should not be a card game. Which we can't fix obviously.
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Italy gamevideo113
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05 Oct 2017, 21:38

Playing with all cards available would definitely be interesting to try. I don't think it would turn out to be better than decks but at the very least we could see some unusual stuff.
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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05 Oct 2017, 21:42

WickedCossack wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Yeah the HC levels are a nobrainer and would definitely get us some players but I don't think it's enough to convince the bulk of the naysayers. My judgement on that may be off but it feels that way having read a lot of the criticism. Anyway it's not either or.


It addresses the main criticism of the HC system.

The other minor criticisms won't be alleviated in my opinion by changing a 25 deck to a 131 card deck. That's quite overwhelming for a new player no? In the middle of a fast paced game and you have to choose from 131 cards and wonder wtf was that card the enemy sent from one of other 13 civs each with 131 cards? How long is that going to take to learn?

I don't see the change addressing a big problem we have atm for current players or for prospective players.

The one criticism I did see that your change would help is that you shouldn't have to do anything to get ready to play, just install log on and go.

The other criticisms I saw against HC's were people not liking units spawning out of nowhere and that an RTS game should not be a card game. Which we can't fix obviously.


It would be contradictive for a definitive edition to pursue a mechanic change like that. It would be a seperate game. I think what Mitoe was saying would be more appropriate. You have all the cards of the civilisation to choose from, rather than pre-selecting decks. It should be a matter of proper scouting to see which card was sent. I think before we immediately turn this down we should investigate the matter. I presume that the build orders will stay relatively the same - and only in longer games we might see major differences.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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05 Oct 2017, 21:45

JakeyBoyTH wrote:I think what Mitoe was saying would be more appropriate. You have all the cards of the civilisation to choose from, rather than pre-selecting decks..


Calling it a deck or not is just semantics. At the end of the day you're still choosing from 131 cards if you have a complete free choice.
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Italy Garja
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05 Oct 2017, 21:52

Goodspeed wrote:Thing is there need to be "radical" changes for people to give this game another try. And this change seems radical to outsiders but isn't. That's why it works.
Simple quality of life improvements won't get people to think " :hmm: I didn't like this game before but now that they changed this and that I might give it another try".

Honestly just the remake itself is going to attract new players. For me just hardware optimization and network improvement would be enough to play it as there would be finally some competition again.
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Turkey HUMMAN
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05 Oct 2017, 22:11

The thing is that some cards are so situational you dont even consider it.
For example cm is a fairly situational card, but most people even dont put it in the deck. Also 4 vill is also a common situational card but you wont see it in a deck most probably.
Besides that some cards are super situational, that you cant decide its value before mu so you dont take it. You wont have spies, vil hp, fort, 2 tower wagon, tc wagon, 1 falc because most of the time its not worth. Still 25 is big enough to satisfy you in %95 of your games i believe.
Also increasing the card limit to 30 or 35 wont help, because its still better to invest in late game (eco and unit upgrades) than having super situational cards.
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No Flag ovi12
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06 Oct 2017, 01:38

I think many people are too proud to put this card in their deck. This card is just OP when your TC is on top of the last food on the map and then suddenly that position becomes unattackable omce you ship that card.
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Canada Mitoe
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06 Oct 2017, 06:12

As much as part of me wants to try out the "no-deck" change, I don't think I can support it; especially if we are only going to get 1 patch.

I do think that we definitely should be looking to buff a lot of the useless cards and politicians though. Not necessarily enough to make them viable or optimal, but enough to make them fun or just not as bad.
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06 Oct 2017, 08:13

ovi12 wrote:I think many people are too proud to put this card in their deck. This card is just OP when your TC is on top of the last food on the map and then suddenly that position becomes unattackable omce you ship that card.

i disagree not that card but the other card is OP. Why people always talk about that card if the should be using this card instead.

Quote it helps.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.

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