What Makes the Best Player?

What makes the best player?

Most versatile with all civs
29
60%
Can beat anyone with one civ
19
40%
 
Total votes: 48

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United States of America n0el
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What Makes the Best Player?

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Post by n0el »

Serious question, since I see this in a lot of conversation on forums, twitch, etc...

In AoE3, what makes a player the best player or better than someone else? ESOC tournaments are based around the concept that the best player has the largest top play civ pool. This is quite contrary to other popular RTS games like Starcraft or Warcraft, where the best players master one race. No one says that Flash or Innovation aren't the greatest because they only play Terran. On the contrary, IrishFaithful probably is limited in his positional finish because of being forced to play 3-4 civs are tournaments progress. Curious about the thoughts of the rest of the community.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by gibson »

This isnt a competitive game and many people in this game don't seem to understand how competitive games work so I wouldnt be surprised to see most versatile with all civs win
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Pacc21 »

Well in ESOC tourneys u cant play just 1 civ so in this case the player who can manage most of them better should win over someone who just does good with one civ.

But if that weren't the case, i would still say the same. Pretty boring playing 1 civilization and not what the game was made for.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Timba »

gibson wrote:This isnt a competitive game and many people in this game don't seem to understand how competitive games work so I wouldnt be surprised to see most versatile with all civs win

I've never followed any other game apart from this one. How do competitive RTS games usually work in a tournament setting?
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by milku3459 »

I think other RTS have much fewer civs. For example, Starcraft has three, Red Alert has three, Tiberium Wars has three, Zero Hour has three, etc. Therefore, it's much more likely that the game is balanced; between such few civs, playtesting and ensuring that all sides are fairly equal is easy. As such, top players can find a civ they are comfortable and stick with it--if he/she picked any of the other two, the only difference would be personal preference.
However, in the big mess and the hundreds of matchups in AOE3, such balance is a pipe dream. If players were defined by how well we could play one civ, every single tournament would be an Ottoman/Iroquois mirror from the very first match up to the finals because sadly, with AOE3's 180 matchups, it's impossible to balance every single one of them and Ottos/Iros are easy to play and difficult to counter. Therefore, tournaments have to force players to be versatile and play different civs to be interesting for the viewers as well as ensure the most skilled player, not the one who can make five jans and ship five, wins the title.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Timba »

For me, I would still consider the best player to be the one who is able to play all three of those civs well. Maybe that's because I'm used to being exposed to a lot of different civs/matchups.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by momuuu »

It's hard. Aoe3 is mechanically speaking not the most complex game. The complexity lies in the actual build orders done. I find that a player that can play a reasonable to large amount of match ups really well is, overall, a better player than one that can play one civ really well. Realistically though, the diverse player is better in a diverse format while the one civ player would be best in an unrestricted format. I think I tend to value deep strategic insight more.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Good with all ofc, no way they do well in a bo9
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Gendarme »

Players adapt to the requirements. I am sure Ryan would be better than Kynesie himself at playing Japan Kynesie-style if he only wanted to. I don't think you need a different skillset to be able to play Dutch than Russians. The reason players don't have a deep civilization pool is simply because that is their personal preference.

I think TLO in StarCraft was a good example of this.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by momuuu »

Gendarme wrote:Players adapt to the requirements. I am sure Ryan would be better than Kynesie himself at playing Japan Kynesie-style if he only wanted to. I don't think you need a different skillset to be able to play Dutch than Russians. The reason players don't have a deep civilization pool is simply because that is their personal preference.

I think TLO in StarCraft was a good example of this.

I'd advise to name morrow instead then haha.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Gendarme »

I was only familiar with StarCraft during half of the WoL-era. HuK, WhiteRa, TLO, idrA are the names I remember.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Garja »

Can beat anyone. Period.
Only reason why players don't stick to one civ is because of balance reasons.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

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Post by deleted_user0 »

name starts with S and ends with U
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by zoom »

Garja.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by gibson »

Timba wrote:
gibson wrote:This isnt a competitive game and many people in this game don't seem to understand how competitive games work so I wouldnt be surprised to see most versatile with all civs win

I've never followed any other game apart from this one. How do competitive RTS games usually work in a tournament setting?
Really the only other competitive rts is sc2, where people play one race only, but if you look at other competitive games its similar. Look at dota and league, which have over a hundred heroes. In major tournaments the pro players stick to only a few. Overwatch is the same way. In csgo its similar but with players playing a "position" like in football rather than a hero or civ. Only a game thats incredibly non competitive and non balanced would require such a large mastery of civs like this one does.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by princeofkabul »

Garja wrote:Can beat anyone. Period.
Only reason why players don't stick to one civ is because of balance reasons.


I'd rather say can beat anyone while maintaining high winning percentage. Any top player can beat other top players in aoe3
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by lordraphael »

gibson wrote:
Timba wrote:
gibson wrote:This isnt a competitive game and many people in this game don't seem to understand how competitive games work so I wouldnt be surprised to see most versatile with all civs win

I've never followed any other game apart from this one. How do competitive RTS games usually work in a tournament setting?
Really the only other competitive rts is sc2, where people play one race only, but if you look at other competitive games its similar. Look at dota and league, which have over a hundred heroes. In major tournaments the pro players stick to only a few. Overwatch is the same way. In csgo its similar but with players playing a "position" like in football rather than a hero or civ. Only a game thats incredibly non competitive and non balanced would require such a large mastery of civs like this one does.

comparing sc2 with aoe is like comparing apples with pears.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by frostibite »

lordraphael wrote:
gibson wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Really the only other competitive rts is sc2, where people play one race only, but if you look at other competitive games its similar. Look at dota and league, which have over a hundred heroes. In major tournaments the pro players stick to only a few. Overwatch is the same way. In csgo its similar but with players playing a "position" like in football rather than a hero or civ. Only a game thats incredibly non competitive and non balanced would require such a large mastery of civs like this one does.

comparing sc2 with aoe is like comparing apples with pears.


Not really. They are both RTS

it's more like comparing one type of apple to another type of apple.

I'll leave it up to you to figure out which apple gets more shelf space
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by momuuu »

Honestly, I personally think they're just two different categories. Just like how in football you might have a best defender and a best midfielder, or in mobas you have a best midplayer and a best support and in overwatch you might have a best tank hero player or a best dps player. And then yes, maybe in those games someone is so exceptionally good that people agree that he's actually the best at his role by much more of a margin than that others are the best at their role. For example Messi and Ronaldo are so much better than the rest of the attackers, compared to how much better the best midfielders and defenders are, that they may be regarded the best players.

Maybe in Starcraft 2, if they'd host a tournament with some sort of civ restrictions, other players would end up being the best. ESOC hosts tournaments with civ restrictions, and thus we often regard the best players at that also the best players. If we'd host single civ tournaments, or single match up tournaments, I'd not be surprised if those same players would rise to the top tbh. But in the end its slightly different skillsets, and we seem to chose to value strategical insight and the ability to play a wide range of match ups properly over the ability to play some match up, that has been mapped out perfectly, very well.

And in the end I'd say that a player that plays exclusively one civ would lose to a player that played multiple civs in an unrestricted environment. After all, counter civs are part of this game so I think having a civ pool with at least some extend of depth will end up making you the better player.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by gibson »

lordraphael wrote:
gibson wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Really the only other competitive rts is sc2, where people play one race only, but if you look at other competitive games its similar. Look at dota and league, which have over a hundred heroes. In major tournaments the pro players stick to only a few. Overwatch is the same way. In csgo its similar but with players playing a "position" like in football rather than a hero or civ. Only a game thats incredibly non competitive and non balanced would require such a large mastery of civs like this one does.

comparing sc2 with aoe is like comparing apples with pears.
it's really not. It's like comparing an apple to a car. Sc2 is a competitive balanced game. Aoe3 is none of those. The only similarities are they're both rts games, which is what the guy asked.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Gendarme »

@gibson In Swedish it is an expression that means "comparing two uncomparable things" - actually referring to the differences between apples and pears, not their similarities as fruits. I assume the German language has the same expression. The English equivalent would be "apples and oranges".
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by HUMMAN »

So isnt dota competitive? Of course it is, it has better heroes in meta, but nearly %90 of heroes preferred in situational places. Same is for aoe3, there are civs situational in some maps. Moreover, i believe skill matters so much, i mean diarouga was saying about warchief tournament "some match ups are pre determined no way to lose or win" but he lost 4-1. Even the best players make so many mistakes it doesnt that much matter i think.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Goodspeed »

gibson wrote:
Timba wrote:
gibson wrote:This isnt a competitive game and many people in this game don't seem to understand how competitive games work so I wouldnt be surprised to see most versatile with all civs win

I've never followed any other game apart from this one. How do competitive RTS games usually work in a tournament setting?
Really the only other competitive rts is sc2, where people play one race only, but if you look at other competitive games its similar. Look at dota and league, which have over a hundred heroes. In major tournaments the pro players stick to only a few. Overwatch is the same way. In csgo its similar but with players playing a "position" like in football rather than a hero or civ. Only a game thats incredibly non competitive and non balanced would require such a large mastery of civs like this one does.
A lot of this game's strategic depth is in understanding match ups and inter-civ balance. This is very different in SC2, so you can't compare the two in this context. For AoE3 it makes a lot of sense, in a competitive environment, to include civ variety, which we have done in tournaments.

Your point doesn't hold up by the way. AoE2 is a competitive game and in tournaments they, too, force players to play every civ. Players who only know how to lame Huns won't stand a chance, even though they may get to the top of the ladder by doing so.

I would agree that, for a competitive RTS, having fewer civs is better. Too many and you run into insurmountable balance issues. However in AoE (2 as well as 3) the civ variety is such an important game feature (case in pt: AoE expansions add civs, SC2 expansions add units) that you have to include it in competition too.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by Garja »

Civ variety would also be accomplished simply by letting each player use its favorite civ. That is if the balance is good enough.

In AOE2 there is more or less the same problem of AOE3 and on top of that everything seems more boring because civs and playstyle are very similar to each other. So in tourneys they force players to play unique maps and set MUs (mostly mirrors).

Talking about competitive rules, it should be either one civ only or on game one civ. The in-between option doesn't succeed in promoting neither type of skills.
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Re: What Makes the Best Player?

Post by gibson »

Goodspeed wrote:
gibson wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Really the only other competitive rts is sc2, where people play one race only, but if you look at other competitive games its similar. Look at dota and league, which have over a hundred heroes. In major tournaments the pro players stick to only a few. Overwatch is the same way. In csgo its similar but with players playing a "position" like in football rather than a hero or civ. Only a game thats incredibly non competitive and non balanced would require such a large mastery of civs like this one does.
A lot of this game's strategic depth is in understanding match ups and inter-civ balance. This is very different in SC2, so you can't compare the two in this context. For AoE3 it makes a lot of sense, in a competitive environment, to include civ variety, which we have done in tournaments.

Your point doesn't hold up by the way. AoE2 is a competitive game and in tournaments they, too, force players to play every civ. Players who only know how to lame Huns won't stand a chance, even though they may get to the top of the ladder by doing so.

I would agree that, for a competitive RTS, having fewer civs is better. Too many and you run into insurmountable balance issues. However in AoE (2 as well as 3) the civ variety is such an important game feature (case in pt: AoE expansions add civs, SC2 expansions add units) that you have to include it in competition too.
I wouldnt say aoe2 is a competitive game for the very reason that I don't think its probably balanced. I don't know very much about the game but between all the expansions theres gotta be what like over 20 civs? Games like overwatch and lol can get away with having more than just a few and being competitive because the heroes are much simpler and easy to balance. What I'm saying is that yes, it does make sense for games like aoe2 and aoe3 to force civ variety in tournaments, reason being the games are so unbalanced that playing just one civ would end in the matchup being a bigger factor in who won a game than the skill of the players. Thats the reason why I dont consider the game competitive. Would you call a football match competitive where one team had to run around with 30 pound vests and the other team was sterioded out of their minds?

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