An alternative sepoy/india change

[HUMMAN]

Give more civs age 2 Xbow upgrade cards

Yeah definetly an option. Especially in spains archaic theme xbows pikes fits perfect. But buff shouldnt exceed %10 since bows are already avaible i mean wakinas lol.

[gamevideo113]

If xbows had a proper multiplier vs HI they would counter musks decently at least. 1.25x is almost irrelevant in most cases. 1.5x would already make the unit more well defined in what is supposedly its use.

[gamevideo113]

Give more civs age 2 Xbow upgrade cards

Yeah definetly an option. Especially in spains archaic theme xbows pikes fits perfect. But buff shouldnt exceed %10 since bows are already avaible i mean wakinas lol.

I agree, changing "hand infantry" cards to "archaic infantry" cards would surely be interesting and maybe spain would be more comfortable in colonial.

[deleted_user]

We maybe don't want a better colonial Spain

[JakeyBoyTH]

Give more civs age 2 Xbow upgrade cards

Yeah definetly an option. Especially in spains archaic theme xbows pikes fits perfect. But buff shouldnt exceed %10 since bows are already avaible i mean wakinas lol.

I agree, changing "hand infantry" cards to "archaic infantry" cards would surely be interesting and maybe spain would be more comfortable in colonial.

@hleung you need this to happen haha

[gamevideo113]

We maybe don't want a better colonial Spain

Fair enough

[ssaraf]

yeah 1.5x vs HI , can be tried. If it gets to vanilla level lame , we can revert. Simple.. Ppl sometimes need xbows so badly vs good heavy inf civs (india , japan mb brits after 2 upgrades) etc , and xbows dont counter them properly. +1 for xbows 1.5xHI

[zoom]

I would buff (decrease) Sepoy cost, possibly also buffing Rajput and Sowar hitpoints in the process. The Sepoy is strong early but mediocre later, generally.

[WickedCossack]

What's wrong with the Sowar?

[Mitoe]

What's wrong with the Sowar?

Nothing.

[zoom]

Nothing. It would just be a way of compensating in another area that is arguably less overwhelming.

[Garja]

Ye let's turn the disaster into a clusterfuck.
Sepoy nerf is like the best change of this patch. There are other things that need to be reverted.
Xbow buff is independent from sepoy.

[JakeyBoyTH]

I really enjoyed the sepoy nerf in the recent game with Soldier and Somppu.

[deleted_user]

Well if we can agree the sepoy change is not the end of the fucking world then the list of controversial changes essentially gets shortened to one (wakina speed) which is a fair criticism imo. A 25% increase in speed is a pretty large bufferino. Spanish gold is looking to be far, far from OP as some (admittedly I) initially thought, but rather as an interesting card which requires in-game reads and intuition.

That's good news, to be frank. Because from the reactions of the past several days you'd think EP4 reverted iro/otto to their RE states and nuked all EP maps to create a highly unbalanced game - oh wait - some people were even calling RE quick search favourable over EP4. Hmm...

[bwinner]

Xbows can outshine musks in some cases:
- Their range means you can get free kills when you camp in base. In the open it doesnt matter much because some musks will catch up fast and be able to shoot at the xbows, but in base it actually helps a lot.
- They're so cheap when spammed from wood crates/stagecoach on wood.
- They don't have the HI tag, so skirms and etc don't snipe them very fast.
- When hunts and goldmines start running out, you can still mass crossbows pretty easily.

Other than that, they're honestly shit. They're basically a niche unit: if you're not exploiting one of these points, you probably shouldn't make bows at all. I'd like them to be slightly buffed, because they're probably just the shittiest RI you can find, and they're as expensive as musks if you chop the wood.

Fonction forger they are good vs goons. For exemple, if you fight vs ww in age 2 as fr/port you would be rly fucked without xbows.

[Garja]

Jan nerf is also controversial. Spanish gold is quite random idea and it is usable profitably with basically one build only, which involves just camping in base as long as possible. Most of general changes are arguable and defnitely not strictly necessary for balance.

[deleted_user]

who edited the "ewe"s back into my post? lmao

[deleted_user]

Jan nerf is also controversial. Spanish gold is quite random idea and it is usable profitably with basically one build only, which involves just camping in base as long as possible. Most of general changes are arguable and defnitely not strictly necessary for balance.

Spain relies on their early fortress spam - they are taking a risk giving up that sort of tempo.

Anyways, I wasn't a part of the balance team so I can say this with impunity - I don't give a shit about otto. The civ reqiures more re-work than sioux to be not lame-as-hell. I've probably just discluded myself from being taken seriously in any balance discussions but oh well. I'll play a balanced 13 civ game over a lame 14 civ game any day.

[JakeyBoyTH]

Jan nerf is also controversial. Spanish gold is quite random idea and it is usable profitably with basically one build only, which involves just camping in base as long as possible. Most of general changes are arguable and defnitely not strictly necessary for balance.

Spain relies on their early fortress spam - they are taking a risk giving p that sort of tempo.

Anyways, I wasn't a part of the balance team so I can say this with impnity - I don't give a shit abot otto. The civ reqires more re-work than siox to be not lame-as-hell. I've probably jst disclded myself from being taken seriosly in any balance discssions bt oh well. I'll play a balanced 13 civ game over a lame 14 civ game any day.

what about 'u' ?

[deleted_user]

it doesn't work on my laptop and tbh I'm not going to bust out my phone for every form post when the bulk of it can be easily inferred.

[gibson]

Jan nerf is also controversial. Spanish gold is quite random idea and it is usable profitably with basically one build only, which involves just camping in base as long as possible. Most of general changes are arguable and defnitely not strictly necessary for balance.

Spain relies on their early fortress spam - they are taking a risk giving p that sort of tempo.

Anyways, I wasn't a part of the balance team so I can say this with impnity - I don't give a shit abot otto. The civ reqires more re-work than siox to be not lame-as-hell. I've probably jst disclded myself from being taken seriosly in any balance discssions bt oh well. I'll play a balanced 13 civ game over a lame 14 civ game any day.

I beat sputnik today in the late game when he did a karni eco semi ff. Sent the gold card first in fort and it gave me total of like 2800 gold

[deleted_user]

Good thing sending a 400 resource shipment first in age 3 is bad!

[Garja]

Jan nerf is also controversial. Spanish gold is quite random idea and it is usable profitably with basically one build only, which involves just camping in base as long as possible. Most of general changes are arguable and defnitely not strictly necessary for balance.

Spain relies on their early fortress spam - they are taking a risk giving p that sort of tempo.

Anyways, I wasn't a part of the balance team so I can say this with impnity - I don't give a shit abot otto. The civ reqires more re-work than siox to be not lame-as-hell. I've probably jst disclded myself from being taken seriosly in any balance discssions bt oh well. I'll play a balanced 13 civ game over a lame 14 civ game any day.

Spain doesn't necessarily rely on that. They generally do that because even with the greediest FF it's hard to keep up with French or Germans. However with this card you can do the standard greedy FF (700g 5v 700w), age up with 400w if you can and then send the gold card first in fortress. Camping in base means you just need buildings+mm+dogs and skirm production. Then you can send stuff like 1k wood and all the good unit cards. Under those conditions the build is OP because it combines an eco level of French/Germans with a faster shipment spam. And Spain units after upgrades are also quite good.
An alternative is going for merc from saloon after using the gold card but doesn't sound that good.
Anyway if you think that the gold card makes every shipment (even the colonial ones) like a German shipment (400g = 3 ulhans basically) you get how OP it is. Especially considering that it gives 400g itself so it's only about a 500 resource investment for a potential 6k gold return or so.

Otto doesn't even need a rework. Maps + a trivial abus nerf is enough to change them from scary to acceptable. The EP made them laughable tho with both jans and abus nerfed (in a bad way even). Mosque tech change is cool, they can ramp through that rather quickly but cheap mosque is a bit too good, while still not providing enough competitiveness (due to the nature of the civ which simplay has to be aggressive anyway).

And even Sioux just needed some tweaks originally. Those two civs pull the win from military advantage. They only needed few eco buffs to compensate for conversative maps. Instead they have been turned into eco civs. And actually Sioux is very much like Germans now.

[gibson]

Good thing sending a 400 resource shipment first in age 3 is bad!

I mean its not a 400 resource shipment i very clearly said that it ended up being a 2800 resource shipment which doesn't seem to bad to me.

[deleted_user]

Good thing sending a 400 resource shipment first in age 3 is bad!

I mean its not a 400 resource shipment i very clearly said that it ended up being a 2800 resource shipment which doesn't seem to bad to me.

Time is money. 3 villagers is potentially an infinite resource shipment!