An alternative sepoy/india change

What is your opinion how sepoy/india should be changed

+5f or +5c cost increase to sepoy
17
27%
Crossbow buff sepoy being 190 hp
17
27%
Sowar buff sepoy being 180hp
8
13%
The current change sepoy 180 hp houses 50w
20
32%
 
Total votes: 62

User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Garja »

Sigh.
Flash news l: after 2-3 free shots musk get in range anyway :o
Image Image Image
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Dsy »

You said xbow counter musks. Now you want to say that musks killing elite forest prowlers?:D
Quite strange...:D
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by deleted_user0 »

https://clips.twitch.tv/SnappySeductivePigStinkyCheese garja u keep complaining about this clip

You have 30 FP, 18 MR: About 6500 res
70 Sepoys/Muskets (was maybe even more): About 8400 res

And we are not even calculating those 4 mahouts here. Why skirm+goon is somehow assumed to always win other combos and if it doesn't happen its unfair?

If musket is so "op", why we NEVER see french/porto/spain doing Age 3 musks??
European Union Theodore
Skirmisher
Posts: 106
Joined: Jun 12, 2017

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Theodore »

But involved in the fight are not 70 sepoys vs 30 forest prowlers, it's roughly 1 on 1. the mahouts come, when the FP are already quite decimated. Ofc, the situation is, that sepoy are in shooting range and the FP cannot use their range advantage.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by momuuu »

somppukunkku wrote:https://clips.twitch.tv/SnappySeductivePigStinkyCheese garja u keep complaining about this clip

You have 30 FP, 18 MR: About 6500 res
70 Sepoys/Muskets (was maybe even more): About 8400 res

And we are not even calculating those 4 mahouts here. Why skirm+goon is somehow assumed to always win other combos and if it doesn't happen its unfair?

If musket is so "op", why we NEVER see french/porto/spain doing Age 3 musks??

Yes, and I'd argue that he would have won the fight if those mahouts didnt come him, despite actually having god aweful micro.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by deleted_user0 »

And even secondly, musket type unit/heavy melee infantry and "supposed" to beat cavalry, including goons. Dragoons are meant to beat heavy melee cavalry.

If you have over 50% of your army cavalry and I have pure anti-cavalry, isn't my combo infact better?
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.

What about, maybe in some mus spain would go greedy and send it, and in some others spain would still go aggro ff? So it brings variety, which doesn't necessarily mean it changes the identity of the civ...
Or then, I could also argue that nerfing uhlans changes the identity of germany because you can't z-move uhlans anymore. Or that giving Sioux an eco option changes their identity. It just doesn't look like the right way to take the problem.

The problem with that card is just that in match-ups where spain can afford to send it, it's probably gonna be too strong. Also that it's a new mechanic, meaning that we don't really know how hard it might be abused (which doesn't mean it can't be tried, though).
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by momuuu »

I've been thinking about it and the actual problem is that the meta shifted due to the maps towards being more greedy, greedy to the point where all civs exhaust all their eco options and then at that point the meta gets stale so EP has been trying to give civs even more eco options. But in the end you're just in a loop and you'll never fix the core problem.
European Union Theodore
Skirmisher
Posts: 106
Joined: Jun 12, 2017

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Theodore »

Jerom wrote:I've been thinking about it and the actual problem is that the meta shifted due to the maps towards being more greedy, greedy to the point where all civs exhaust all their eco options and then at that point the meta gets stale so EP has been trying to give civs even more eco options. But in the end you're just in a loop and you'll never fix the core problem.


Yes, that is why it is so important to have a divers map pool. Compared to the original RE maps, I think that the map team did a very good job already. Again, it is difficult to determine when a map pool is balanced. But when I think of the last tournaments, it seems that there is a lot of playstyle diversity (more than on RE). You don't want maps to be rush-only. Maps + age-up costs are as important as civ-design when it comes to meta-shifts.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Garja »

On the clip thing, seriously, let's get it over. Those were 30-40max nerfed sepoy vs about 30 FPs (with combat card, dunno about cards on sepoy) and about 20 musket riders. It's unfair in the first place the claim to crawl forward with the wrong unit. Please note that vs high HP units like sepoy or jans the WC crackshot is rather useless.
Mahouts came when fight was already over and MR in combination with skirms are useful because theycan tank shots if necessary. Also note that at that point in the game you had lost like 15 vills to raids and just wasted lot of units prior to that battle.

Anyway that's just an example. It comes in handy because you clipped it and it came out at the right time. But stuff like this happens all the time even with ashi or jans but to a lesser extent. For ashi is mostly because of the broken speed, for jans is just the billion HPs. But at least those units have somewhat drawbacks (current ashi stats are more or less legit for the cost and jan attack is almost laughable). Sepoy is just too good all around to the point that players go for it in fortress despite having more logical combos.
Image Image Image
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by deleted_user0 »

Firstly, those were non-nerfed sepoy
Secondly, if count 30 sepoys in that fight you need glasses
Thirdly, wtf is then "not wrong unit combo" vs skirm-goon? Except skirm-goon???
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Jerom wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.

What about, maybe in some mus spain would go greedy and send it, and in some others spain would still go aggro ff? So it brings variety, which doesn't necessarily mean it changes the identity of the civ...
Or then, I could also argue that nerfing uhlans changes the identity of germany because you can't z-move uhlans anymore. Or that giving Sioux an eco option changes their identity. It just doesn't look like the right way to take the problem.

The problem with that card is just that in match-ups where spain can afford to send it, it's probably gonna be too strong. Also that it's a new mechanic, meaning that we don't really know how hard it might be abused (which doesn't mean it can't be tried, though).

Well thats the thing, it changes the game too much, germany are a cav civ and therefore their cav shouldnt just be xp for the opponent, and to compensate with a 10hp dopp buff is useless, then they try to give sioux economic options when the civ isnt designed that way at all , and trying to give spain an economic way that revamps the entire civ is just changing the game too
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Jerom wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.

What about, maybe in some mus spain would go greedy and send it, and in some others spain would still go aggro ff? So it brings variety, which doesn't necessarily mean it changes the identity of the civ...
Or then, I could also argue that nerfing uhlans changes the identity of germany because you can't z-move uhlans anymore. Or that giving Sioux an eco option changes their identity. It just doesn't look like the right way to take the problem.

The problem with that card is just that in match-ups where spain can afford to send it, it's probably gonna be too strong. Also that it's a new mechanic, meaning that we don't really know how hard it might be abused (which doesn't mean it can't be tried, though).

Basically what hazza said, I don't like the german or sioux changes either.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Garja »

somppukunkku wrote:Firstly, those were non-nerfed sepoy
Secondly, if count 30 sepoys in that fight you need glasses
Thirdly, wtf is then "not wrong unit combo" vs skirm-goon? Except skirm-goon???

At 51s left it is not more than 40 sepoy and redcoats, roughly the same amount of skirms I have.
Not wrong combo would be anything that actually counters skirms like sepoy + a decent number of mahouts or gurkha-sowar or even sepoy sowar if in superior number. I would be fine even with gurkha sepoy which is aboutnthe same of skirm-goon but pure musks is just rerarded.
Image Image Image
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by deleted_user0 »

If you can't beat sepoys with FP it's basically ur bad micro...
User avatar
China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 3283
Joined: Apr 23, 2015
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by fei123456 »

the use of "spanish gold" (in theory):

standard FF, skip 5v
3v-700g-700w-spanish gold-(2 cannon)-1000w-unction
train skirm+goon and stay at home in early age 3, do a timing push at around 13:00

spanish gold can pay off after 3 shipments, and unction after you have 50+ units can be insane. thus, spain can play late game with any other civ imo.
1000w after spanish gold=artilery foundry+1 cannon+600w left (second TC? church+10 missionaries?)
spanish gold-1000w-unction combo may become a new meta imo.
User avatar
China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 3283
Joined: Apr 23, 2015
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by fei123456 »

how to beat sepoy with FP 100%:
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....

Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can :smile:
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by momuuu »

fei123456 wrote:the use of "spanish gold" (in theory):

standard FF, skip 5v
3v-700g-700w-spanish gold-(2 cannon)-1000w-unction
train skirm+goon and stay at home in early age 3, do a timing push at around 13:00

spanish gold can pay off after 3 shipments, and unction after you have 50+ units can be insane. thus, spain can play late game with any other civ imo.
1000w after spanish gold=artilery foundry+1 cannon+600w left (second TC? church+10 missionaries?)
spanish gold-1000w-unction combo may become a new meta imo.

Skip 700w instead imo, you don't need to get the infrastructure going that quickly because you're not shipping units yet and dont need to be aggressive quickly.
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by gamevideo113 »

fei123456 wrote:how to beat sepoy with FP 100%:
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....

Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can :smile:

You can't attack with stealthed units :chinese:

Anyway, if FPs are kiting and attacking their total speed will be less than 4, while sepoys can just keep walking with 4 speed until they catch up, then FP cannot run anymore. When they catch up they trade quite well despite the fact that FPs should hard counter them.

D.Sepoy attack: 30
D.Sepoy hp (with brit cons): 250

Carded FP attack: 22x2=44
Carded FP ranged HP = 220

FP kills sepoy in 6 hits
Sepoy kills FP in 8 hits

Considering that there is a lot of overkill these numbers end up not mattering that much though, the two sides end up picking off 2-3 enemy units per volley. I think Garja would have won the fight in the end if the mahouts didn't come, but it was still a very decent trade for somppu and I don't think Garja's micro was bad. It's just that massed tanky units (halberdiers as well for example) can afford to run towards the enemy army even if they should be countered, because once they are in range they can trade well (see musk vs xbow in age2).
In my opinion sepoys were a really strong unit and even after the nerf they are very respectable.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
No Flag ssaraf
Dragoon
Posts: 208
Joined: Jun 19, 2015
ESO: robinhood_xing

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by ssaraf »

Wow , such an interesting approach to kiting. The chinese and japanese (and similar countries like malaysia etc , dont sue me if i missed ur country name) players never cease to amaze me. :D
User avatar
India drsingh
Dragoon
Posts: 273
Joined: Jun 10, 2016
ESO: drsingh

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by drsingh »

Regarding skirm/fp vs sepoy.
They are still somewhat cost effective when both in range.
If able ti kite with help of snaring by explorer or sacrificial cav. Then do very good.

Instead of combat card for skirm. If you expect to fight musket units (india, otto maybe Japan) then CIR is much better. (consider 60 attack instead of 44 in above example. 4 hits for age3 sepoy. 5hit for age3 sepoy +british consulate.)
FP have access through new ways card. This is not part of standard play. But all options should be explored before nerfing.
User avatar
Malaysia Aizamk
Pro Player
ESOC WarChiefs Classic 2017
Posts: 1459
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
Location: ded

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by Aizamk »

fei123456 wrote:how to beat sepoy with FP 100%:
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....

Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can :smile:

I remember trying this and feeling like forest prowlers don't actually snare in melee so it's useless.
oranges.
User avatar
India drsingh
Dragoon
Posts: 273
Joined: Jun 10, 2016
ESO: drsingh

Re: An alternative sepoy/india change

Post by drsingh »

There is one more alternative way of nerfing sepoy-

Originally sepoy had ranged multiplier vs cav.
Ranged attack could be nerfed from 25 to 23. With 15%(1.15x) ranged multiplier vs cav. That is 26 vs cavalry.

This should correct the case of sepoy being too good against counter units.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV