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After 2 other cards is like having sent 1k gold actualized. They made the change so that Spain could have 1k gold in fact. Thing is shipment is much better than 1k gold.

Again, sending spanish gold first and camping in base forfeits the entire map and is even extremely subject to colonial timings. Idk, I guess we'll keep watching how games play out.

Otto - could b. I'm not getting involved with that civ.

I'm seeing an intriguing poll development.

EAGLEMUT wrote:I'm seeing an intriguing poll development.

@deleted_user5 my hero where have you been

gibson wrote:

deleted_user wrote:Good thing sending a 400 resource shipment first in age 3 is bad!

I mean its not a 400 resource shipment i very clearly said that it ended up being a 2800 resource shipment which doesn't seem to bad to me.

Spanish gold is surely an interesting card, personally i see it as a a slightly different and probably slightly less profitable version of an 8 vills card. Assuming you get a shipment every 2 minutes, 8 vills is better in the long term, although spanish gold is unraidable and starts paying off from the very moment you send it. It might look very strong now but imo it is not too strong compared to an 8 vil shipment.

You get a shipment more frequently than every 2 minutes with Spain; at least for the few 3-4 shipments. It's worth around 10-12 vills for those first 3-4 cards depending on the frequency, and then it starts to fall off. But don't forget that it also helps preserve your mines, so you won't need to move your coin vills for quite some time which also helps. Later in the game you may win Fortress simply because you still have 1-2 mines and your opponent does not.

I wonder if someone will come up with some mercantilism+spanish gold strat, probably that is the most abusable tech with this card.

@Mitoe Yeah if you can queue shipments one right after the other it is very good. If you can ship 1 card every 90 seconds the benefit is roughly equal to 8 unupgraded vills though, so later on it loses a bit of steam. Obviously the first fortress shipments will come in more quickly so that's where you can benefit the most from it. If it turns out to be too powerful then removing the 400 gold from the spanish gold card itself is a good way to nerf it imo.

@EAGLEMUT : The poll is pretty interesting, but one can read it like : Only 1/3rd of ppl agree with current change and 2/3 want either the xbow buff or the cost change. I am one of those ppl who still wanna keep sepoys to 190hp and is fine with either of the two above changes. SO, make it happen

THE SPANISH CHANGE : This is a pretty interesting change, as it gives u 2 full mines approx which is huge, but idk if Spain even needed a buff tbh.

NOW, if we look at the other euro civs situation w.r.t the resources on the map after this change --------->
Brits : you skirm units (lbs) already cost wood and are pretty good , and you need gold only for goon/huss. Again less mines needed. Also your eco is pretty damn insane at the start of age3 and more so by the time all mines run out. Can kinda afford plantation transition also.
Dutch : Have banks, need less mines on the map.
Ports : Around the 20 min mark ie, when the mines run out , your eco is massive and you can even kinda afford a plantation transition.
Otto : hopeless case. [IN GS guide, he though sioux as hopeless and skipped it , so why cant I ] P.S ----> Believe me if you have survived the game till all mines ran out , consider yourself as a moral winner ...
Russia ---> Again your skirms (strlets) cost wood and are very cost effective. Its basically the job of the opponent to finish this civ within 20 or so mins before mines run out , else you are already fucked.
France : Skirm , goon , currs , falcs all cost coin. When mines run out you are fucked. The plantation transition is not really affordable.
Germany : Skrims , WW/dops , ulhans , merc shipments , maybe falcs all are gold heavy. When mines run out you are even more fucked than France. The plantation transition is not really affordable.
TAD Civs not discussed coz thy have 400w plantations, so fuck it.
So, This spanish change is inherently a nerf to France / Germany if you think of it.

Maybe i took this too far, but it is something to consider.

Garja wrote:

HorseWalker wrote:Xbows are a very civ specific unit. Were talking about three civs that are completely capable of dealing with india rushes.

Xbow buff isnt a measure for India rush. Sepoy hp would stay at 180hp regardless.

Do you have the ability to read comprehensively? If so, refer to the original post.

About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.

HorseWalker wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.

I whole wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Spanish gold requires deviation from standard Spain ff. You just cant perform ff on time with this card, its only useful in some niche scenarios, or maybe if someone forms entire new build out of it.

I'd suggest saving the 700w in age 2 and going 3v 700c 5v spanish gold into a unit shipment or sth.

HorseWalker wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.

Yea if you send it than Spain is just another skirm goon (or maybe skirm rod depending the MU) civ

Jerom wrote:

Garja wrote:

HorseWalker wrote:Xbows are a very civ specific unit. Were talking about three civs that are completely capable of dealing with india rushes.

Xbow buff isnt a measure for India rush. Sepoy hp would stay at 180hp regardless.

Do you have the ability to read comprehensively? If so, refer to the original post.

What do you mean. Idc if topic is for sepoy measures. I'm just here to say my opinion. Sepoy nerf is legit. Xbow buff is another idea.

About Spain, it's not like Spain has to go all in every time. You can play eco FF, just it's a bit inferior to what top civs can do at the moment. Gold shipment certainly fixes that being OP. I agree sitting in base is not funny and should not be promoted.

All musket type units including sepoys strong only cause eu civs has no age 2 counter vs them. Or they are basicly slow ageing civs.
Either way its nothing to do with sepoys thats why some ask why ep changed them. If the civ is fast, then its not the sepoys fault. If other civs has no counter vs musks, thats again not the sepoys fault.

If the india as civ can rush too fast (which cant in my opinion) why change its unit instead of slow down the rush itself... For me its the question.
Other question. Who thinks india rush is too strong? I dont...

Musks in general are good because they're ranged unit not countered by cav. Plus they have very good stats per cost. Speaking of that sepoy stats are insane hence why they needed a nerf.

Garja wrote:Musks in general are good because they're ranged unit not countered by cav. Plus they have very good stats per cost. Speaking of that sepoy stats are insane hence why they needed a nerf.

dragoons?

What do you mean? Dragoons are good units for the same reason (plus mobility) but they are less cost effective then musks and lose to them in mass.

Noone make musks in age 3. That shows their real power.
They are not op at all. Sepoy on re same strong as a musk. With consulate its a bit stronger. Now they are worse without consulate and same strong with consulate...
And its just tweaking a unit which was totally fine. Everybody complains about indian rush anyways. I dont think if some1 ff as france vs india would care lategame sepoys at all since if you a have a minor skill snipe them all with skirms...
So saying that musks are strong general is misleading. Real complain was here the rush. Or some people dont want to deal with a rush which is 70% as strong as otto rush... OP guys.

And goon/skirm >> musk/cav always... No matter if its a musk or a bit better musk. Range is a huge factor. And sepoy in age 3 also need vet upgrade which is very expensive.

Ye none makes musks in age3 except for sepoy, ashi, and jans..ah and brits. Guess why. Go watch somppu clip with sepoy beating FPs.

what I saw was 1 player unable of using the FP range to kite, not Sepoy being op

Most people are saying this is a non-issue. I agree. What about Usain Bolt Wakina? Have we got some recs of those used yet? JW

macacoalbino wrote:what I saw was 1 player unable of using the FP range to kite, not Sepoy being op

Ye sure, I can't micro. Also that was indeed the first time I saw sepoy or other musk units overperforming vs their counter.

I just used the cost effectivity calculator and elite forest prowler same cost effective as a veteran sepoy (on re).
This means if they start shoot each other they trade 1-1. But ofc skirms got +8 range. So all you need to do is use this range to win...
Sepoys needs veteran upgrade which is time and resources.

Yes garja at that fight did put the goons behind the forest prowlers so he had some pathing issues which allowed the sepoy to catch up with them