No Flag enjoy2play
Skirmisher
Posts: 184

09 Dec 2017, 19:51

look at sompus mines vs uhlans, so unfair and thats in the last match in a bo 5 when they already rehosted 3 times

1,5 mines vs 16 mines
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.

N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
No Flag enjoy2play
Skirmisher
Posts: 184

09 Dec 2017, 19:52

games is at 5 min btw, so nothing over yet and no flame cause sompu maybe lose the series
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.

N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 6493
Location: USA

09 Dec 2017, 19:59

enjoy2play wrote:games is at 5 min btw, so nothing over yet and no flame cause sompu maybe lose the series

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I kissed a girl and I liked it
The taste of her cherry chap stick
I kissed a girl just to try it
I hope my boyfriend don't mind it
It felt so wrong, it felt so right
Don't mean I'm in love tonight
I kissed a girl and I liked it
I liked it
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China fei123456
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Location: Alderaan

09 Dec 2017, 19:59

#EZ4SO
"Why don't you dare to play with me if you already know who I am? You can never beat me even if I don't cheat."
"Aoe3 is dying, and cheating keeps it alive."
——Chuan Chen(陈川)
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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 12554
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

09 Dec 2017, 20:00

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"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
No Flag enjoy2play
Skirmisher
Posts: 184

09 Dec 2017, 20:02

is that mario?
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.

N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
No Flag enjoy2play
Skirmisher
Posts: 184

09 Dec 2017, 20:02

#EZ4SO
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.

N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
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Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 722

09 Dec 2017, 20:05

As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......
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Netherlands momuuu
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11 Dec 2017, 10:48

Atomiswave wrote:As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......

This is like the falsest statement ever :/

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Switzerland sebnan12
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11 Dec 2017, 12:46

Jerom wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......

This is like the falsest statement ever :/

why? cuz u think so? i agree with him.
BAE
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United States of America musketeer925
ESOC Dev Team
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11 Dec 2017, 16:38

Atomiswave wrote:As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......

There's really nothing true about this.
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Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 722

11 Dec 2017, 16:43

musketeer925 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......

There's really nothing true about this.


Ok, then what's stopping map makers to finally fix hunt/mine spawns?
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New Zealand zoom
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11 Dec 2017, 17:01

Garja.
sudmakmak wrote:This patch Keshik don't have buff anti cavalry = noob patch2.0
and don't have nerf hard japan = noob patch2.0
because all more noob player at this patch = noob logic.
or they maybe have boyfriend.(japanese boyfriend fuck your ass them)
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Serbia Atomiswave
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Posts: 722

11 Dec 2017, 17:11

zoom wrote:Garja.


Garja is not only map maker, there are others, maybe we should use their maps for tourneys, which are more consistent in terms of hunt/mine spawns.
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United States of America dicktator_
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Posts: 700

11 Dec 2017, 17:34

Atomiswave wrote:
musketeer925 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......

There's really nothing true about this.


Ok, then what's stopping map makers to finally fix hunt/mine spawns?

EAGLEMUT wrote:Having the same fixed state every time isn't the only way, by far. There's a lot of freedom in coding resources; one can just make them less random or even randomly choose from a set of "fixed" balanced spawns. Afaik the current amount of randomness on ESOC maps is simply intentional (deemed sufficient) and/or easier to implement.

Random but fair is entirely possible with elegant coding.
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Switzerland sebnan12
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11 Dec 2017, 17:59

musketeer925 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:As i recall map creators can't fix bad hunt spawns. Problem is in game engine itself. Atm, the only way to address this issue is to set all hunts to fixed status on all maps, and we don't want that, don't we. Everyone likes little randomness here and there.......

There's really nothing true about this.
are u all not able to read or am i the only one who likes if the map is atleast a little bit of random?

BAE


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United States of America musketeer925
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11 Dec 2017, 18:23

Atomiswave wrote:Ok, then what's stopping map makers to finally fix hunt/mine spawns?

Seems to me that it's everyone agreeing on precisely what is the correct amount of randomness. I personally am a fan of having a variety of maps with different amounts of randomness.

If you're dissatisfied with the maps that we have now, I'd recommend trying your hand at making your own. High quality content like more maps is likely to get included in EP / tournaments if the author permits it and the community wants it.
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New Zealand zoom
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11 Dec 2017, 18:35

Atomiswave wrote:
zoom wrote:Garja.


Garja is not only map maker, there are others, maybe we should use their maps for tourneys, which are more consistent in terms of hunt/mine spawns.
No. He is the only Garja, though.
sudmakmak wrote:This patch Keshik don't have buff anti cavalry = noob patch2.0
and don't have nerf hard japan = noob patch2.0
because all more noob player at this patch = noob logic.
or they maybe have boyfriend.(japanese boyfriend fuck your ass them)
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Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 722

11 Dec 2017, 18:42

musketeer925 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Ok, then what's stopping map makers to finally fix hunt/mine spawns?

Seems to me that it's everyone agreeing on precisely what is the correct amount of randomness. I personally am a fan of having a variety of maps with different amounts of randomness.

If you're dissatisfied with the maps that we have now, I'd recommend trying your hand at making your own. High quality content like more maps is likely to get included in EP / tournaments if the author permits it and the community wants it.


Then why do we get so many hunt/gold screws that require rehost?

No, I am not skilled at map making. Also, I am not bashing someone's work, maps are good, they just need few tweaks here and there in hunt spawn department.
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Canada Mitoe
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11 Dec 2017, 23:44

ESOC map spawns are fantastic. There are a few that are less consistent than the others, but for the most part they've got pretty stellar resource distribution.

From what little I understand about the map code, most ESOC maps force hunts/mines to spawn a specific minimum distance from each other. Usually this means that resources will still spawn fairly, but not always in the exactly same position every game, which ensures that scouting around your base (or around part of it) is still an important part of the early game. However, a mine or hunt will spawn in an awkward position and force other hunts or mines out away from one player's base and towards the opponent's: this is the cause of most map screws on ESOC maps I think.

(Fun fact: you can often use this knowledge to estimate where your 3rd or 4th hunts/mines have spawned without actually scouting them if you know where your 1st and 2nd hunts/mines have spawned.)

One example of a common map screw is the mines on Hudson Bay. On Hudson you normally get 2 mines in base, one close to your TC and one a bit further away, and then your 3rd and 4th mines spawn up north of your TC (behind the nat post) and south of your TC (behind another nat post). The most common map screw on Hudson Bay is when your 2nd in-base mine spawns too far behind your TC that the minimum distance restrictions force the northern mine to spawn in the middle of the map somewhere because otherwise it would be forced to spawn on the water or ice, which also isn't allowed. Similar map screws happen on maps like Arkansas & Pampas Sierras with the hunts.

I guess the thing to work on is improving those unfortunate spawns or designing maps in a way that those spawns don't force resources to spawn super far away because of terrain restrictions (but depending on how you want the terrain laid out on the map this could potentially be too limiting).

Also, Colorado is a fixed map; mines and hunts always spawn in exactly the same position, and I don't think I've ever been map screwed on it. It makes me sad that everyone hates it. It might actually be my favourite map in the pool.
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Italy Garja
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12 Dec 2017, 00:34

Mitoe wrote:ESOC map spawns are fantastic. There are a few that are less consistent than the others, but for the most part they've got pretty stellar resource distribution.

From what little I understand about the map code, most ESOC maps force hunts/mines to spawn a specific minimum distance from each other. Usually this means that resources will still spawn fairly, but not always in the exactly same position every game, which ensures that scouting around your base (or around part of it) is still an important part of the early game. However, a mine or hunt will spawn in an awkward position and force other hunts or mines out away from one player's base and towards the opponent's: this is the cause of most map screws on ESOC maps I think.

(Fun fact: you can often use this knowledge to estimate where your 3rd or 4th hunts/mines have spawned without actually scouting them if you know where your 1st and 2nd hunts/mines have spawned.)

One example of a common map screw is the mines on Hudson Bay. On Hudson you normally get 2 mines in base, one close to your TC and one a bit further away, and then your 3rd and 4th mines spawn up north of your TC (behind the nat post) and south of your TC (behind another nat post). The most common map screw on Hudson Bay is when your 2nd in-base mine spawns too far behind your TC that the minimum distance restrictions force the northern mine to spawn in the middle of the map somewhere because otherwise it would be forced to spawn on the water or ice, which also isn't allowed. Similar map screws happen on maps like Arkansas & Pampas Sierras with the hunts.

I guess the thing to work on is improving those unfortunate spawns or designing maps in a way that those spawns don't force resources to spawn super far away because of terrain restrictions (but depending on how you want the terrain laid out on the map this could potentially be too limiting).

Also, Colorado is a fixed map; mines and hunts always spawn in exactly the same position, and I don't think I've ever been map screwed on it. It makes me sad that everyone hates it. It might actually be my favourite map in the pool.


Ye it works pretty much that way. I hope there isn't anyone complaining that ignore this because otherwise critics are pointless.
I'd like to point out that EP maps already have quite restrictive standards compared to RE maps. By standards I mean things like:
1) size of the map (90% of EP maps have same standard size unlike RE maps)
2) fixed TC and nat post placement. This is a first step to allow for more consistent spawn while sacrificing randomness.
3) resources distances. Because maps have same size, often resources are placed with the same distances, making maps more similar to each other. This is huge because it changes the dynamic of walking vills to the next hunt and losing gathering time.
4) resource amount. EP maps have a rather narrow range of resources compared to RE map pool.
5) spacing between objects. This improves the quality of the gameplay imo although it alter the original flow of the game.

Comparison with RE maps is important because deliberately changing things from their original changes the balance of the game.

The mapscrew you mention are things I have worked on forever. Those maps have been changed like 20 times from the very first version. Everytime I tried to tweak constraints if not even TC positions or map layout to improve things, obviously under certain restrictions.
In order to fix the 2nd mine on hudson that shoud be closer to the TC which is something I simply don't want the map to have. It wouldn't be a good compromise. Not to mention it could sometimes fuck the 3rd mine on top (and it does from time to time).
Arkansas hunts are rather consistent. I'd say the hunt screw is around 5% at worst. Considering the advantage of having different hunt placement each time that is totally acceptable (altho, as you said, you can tell easily where you next hunt is by just looking at the other ones).
Pampas Sierras just has more complicated layout which transfers on resource placement. In order to have various hunt/mine setups resources are less consistent. Hunts avoid each other and that is already quite a good rule to avoid unfairness. The only problem is again the map features like the cliff which means that 2 hunts approximately in the same position might still be unfair if one is on the cliff. As for the mines the only problem really is when it spawns in front which unfortunately also means it can spawn a bit further (because the starting resources are placed with a command that counts tiles as a diamond and not a circle like constraints do). That if of course fixable. It's just that I don't think it's worth to change. Mines still spawn on opposite sides of TC so if one is in front the other one is safe in the back. Other player might have them on sides which is not necessarily better. Also because one is in front then those on the sides can be slightly closer. And at the end of the day that's how the map spawn anyway. It's not supposed to have a completely safe 2nd mine.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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12 Dec 2017, 07:52

Colorado i dont spawn with a tc lol, id consider that a map screw
Venividivici_w: i heard h20 signed up last minute. Prob waited for roby not signing up so he wouldnt get smashed again
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Greece tedere12
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12 Dec 2017, 07:57

Hazza54321 wrote:Colorado i dont spawn with a tc lol, id consider that a map screw

the spawns are random and you have to adapt
"Well, now you are playing otto, but tommorow you might become a rapist, or a serial killer" -VaneStoilov

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Singapore milku3459
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12 Dec 2017, 08:42

tedere12 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Colorado i dont spawn with a tc lol, id consider that a map screw

the spawns are random and you have to adapt


it's all about skill, so stop whining, you just got outplayd
1/5/17
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Switzerland sebnan12
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12 Dec 2017, 12:32

milku3459 wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Colorado i dont spawn with a tc lol, id consider that a map screw

the spawns are random and you have to adapt


it's all about skill, so stop whining, you just got outplayd

no. hes a grown up man

BAE


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