Congratulations, esoc

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Norway spanky4ever
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by spanky4ever »

momuuu wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
momuuu wrote:If I would be salty its because I miss interjection, zuta and h2o casting.

I miss them 2. but live moves one, new casters. new meta, and so it goes :biggrin:
We miss the old, really good ones, but there are so many neewbew coming on. Hell, even sommpu casted today. The game moves on my friend :love:

That doesn't take away the point that it is a very valid point of view that the casting has not improved since the last tournament.

Really miss some casters, but I will not hang on to yesteday. I will embrace tomorrow and the casters that are willing to do this -FOR US :!:
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by dietschlander »

momuuu wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:If we do not accept that the quality of casting will be lower, we do not have anyone casting the games.

And bad caster = or > no caster because there is a mute option.
Basically, afternoon games are impossible for US, not too many UK casters and not too many active native-level speakers outside of those countries --> Budget english.

Actually, to some degree I prefer no caster thats just showing the important things on screen to a caster that I don't like that's also missing literally every raid and half of the fights.


Totally disagree with Jerom here.
whats up with the momuu thing btw?

and can we pleash have like a weekly history lesson @Radix_Lecti :flowers:
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Anyway, nuancing isn't your forte, so I'll agree with you like I would with a 8 year old: violence is bad, don't do hard drugs and stay in school Benj98
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by noissance »

^ This!
@momuuu why dont you try being a full time caster then? you clearly seem to have expertise in judging others, so put yourself in their shoes for once?
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by dietschlander »

Jerom a great caster btw, dunno about that mumoo guy
Theres going to be a dam, the great dam and we'll let the beavers pay for it - Edeholland 2016
Anyway, nuancing isn't your forte, so I'll agree with you like I would with a 8 year old: violence is bad, don't do hard drugs and stay in school Benj98
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by noissance »

havent seen him cast, only the pesky '2nd lts'
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by Snuden »

I also think casting have improved overall.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by Radix_Lecti »

Thx for the request @dietschlander but we should all try to be more considerate towards others. Having to press the mute button can be quite infuriating to some.

I can add that the Boyars shipment makes a lot of sense. Through those reforms the power and corruption of the Boyars lessened and soldiers didn't have to take up side jobs anymore to make ends meet and so became better disciplined soldiers and 10% more effective. #historicfacts
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by momuuu »

iwillspankyou wrote:
momuuu wrote:
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That doesn't take away the point that it is a very valid point of view that the casting has not improved since the last tournament.

Really miss some casters, but I will not hang on to yesteday. I will embrace tomorrow and the casters that are willing to do this -FOR US :!:

The statement "improved" can logically not exist without considering what it was like before. In the light of a discussion about whether or not something has improved, I am then forced to consider what it used to be like by the virtue of the definition of improved. If it then turns out that I think it used to be better before than it is now, I am forced to conclude the situation has not improved by the definition of improved.
So in weighing the topic's primary question I conclude that the casting has not improved, and therefor I'm "hanging onto yesterday" and failing to embrace tomorrow? That seems ludicrous and beyond reason to me.
noissance wrote:^ This!
@momuuu why dont you try being a full time caster then? you clearly seem to have expertise in judging others, so put yourself in their shoes for once?

actually the few casts I did I was reasonably content with the strategic insight I managed to bring to the table, as well as the medium succes I had in covering up my filthy dutch accent. I don't have the personal situation to do a lot of casting right now though.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by Gichtenlord »

Did the esoc streams improve in terms of quality? Yes, they did.
Did the quality of casting improve? No it actually declined, but thats because most of the higher skilled players didnt bother to cast a game.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by sirmusket »

momuuu wrote:Well, to me what they've been saying reached an all time low. I think half of the time, at least, theres a guy talking thats at best a 1st lt. Theres something wrong with optimism if that requires you to ignore the truth completely.

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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by sirmusket »

noissance wrote:havent seen him cast, only the pesky '2nd lts'

Jerom isn't a bad caster, and I actually agree with everything Jerom is saying. Most of the tournament was casted by people with quite low game knowledge, except for when Kaiser or SirCallen casted. And I think most people would agree the casting has gotten worse, I don't see what's so bad in just admitting to it :P
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by momuuu »

sirmusket wrote:
noissance wrote:havent seen him cast, only the pesky '2nd lts'

Jerom isn't a bad caster, and I actually agree with everything Jerom is saying. Most of the tournament was casted by people with quite low game knowledge, except for when Kaiser or SirCallen casted. And I think most people would agree the casting has gotten worse, I don't see what's so bad in just admitting to it :P

Yeah, and I don't mean it in a negative sense at all. I tried to make that clear in the first initial posts. It's not bad to be a less knowledgable caster, but it's harder to be so. You can't blame any person for it. In the end, I think casters that don't have as much game knowledge need to try to not speak to much about how the game works or what's happening strategically, as they risk being wrong too much. Instead, a better approach would be to try to understand what the player's reasoning is and throw out some vague considerations with appropriate uncertainty, aswell as trying to just go play by play.

Even better so is the combination of a knowledgable caster with a great play by play caster. Zutajection is a premiere example. My favorite cast I've done was with interjection, where I'd just sit back and relax during big fights and just whenever interjection was going on with his great voice, and then come in when interjection would ask "hey what do you think about this thing this player is doing". I felt like that setup made interjection do better and I surely did much better myself as I was given time to think about useful things to say and didnt have to fill the void in a language that I'm not comfortable in.

Of course, there's only room for this criticism if you accept that there's loads of room for improvement. But you're not allowed to be critical by the ESOC thought police.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by Kaiserklein »

Sadly, I don't think we can say the casting got better since last year. Jerom is right when he says that being positive for the sake of being positive makes no sense. I think this was the first tourney where we had no interjection, no zuta, no veni, no H2O. No wonder this time, the finals didn't peak over 500, while usually it's around 800-1000, iirc. No offense to callen and chrisie who casted the finals, I think they're both good casters, especially callen brings an accurate insight. But they're not "casting legends" like the ones I mentioned, obviously.

What can we do about it? Not much. Can't force OP casters to cast. We can just let the newer generation of casters (including queen and me for example) improve with experience. Casters-wise, there is really not much to do.


However, I think the ESOC standards can and should be higher. I remember when I started casting, I felt like ESOC was over cautious and annoying with their casting standards. Now I feel like they're too lenient:

Casters randomly start solo casting, when in fact there's co-casters available. Co-casters just randomly leave in the middle of the series, because the game is laggy, without actually waiting for a lag test to determine where the lag comes from. That's how they let goongoon deny the co-caster iirc.

Casters take decisions without waiting for what admins say. Admins, on the other hand, are often quite busy and not here to help when needed (can't blame them if they have real life stuff to do ofc, just saying it makes it hard to take the right decisions).

No one communicates, so a lot of times there is some last-second casting, resulting in potentially poor quality, solo-casts, and/or no higher level player casting.
We had lieutenants casting pr 35+ series, resulting in them not understanding properly what was going on. Then high level players in the chat point out the obvious mistakes, making ESOC's casting look everything but pro. I'm not blaming the guys for being lieuts, obviously everyone doesn't need to try-hard the game, and some of them are really good casters. But let's face it, how can someone provide insight about a game featuring players 10-15 pr better than him? You would expect a more skilled player to be mixed into the duo, so that the more technical aspects of the casting can be dealt with.

These are examples among others. I think casting rules need to be a bit stricter, if we want to reach a more professional level of casting. People need to overall care more about the stream quality. Not blaming anyone here though, it's not easy to run such a big channel with a ton of different streamers.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by Kaiserklein »

Gichtenlord wrote:Did the esoc streams improve in terms of quality? Yes, they did.
Did the quality of casting improve? No it actually declined, but thats because most of the higher skilled players didnt bother to cast a game.

I'd like to point out that casters don't decide of what they cast on ESOCTV. Ultimately, it's the media team that chooses the casters. There were times where I wanted (or we wanted, queen and me) to cast a series, but the media admins chose someone else.

Just wanted to explain that part, because a lot of times people asked me in the chat "why aren't you casting" etc, as though I could decide. But I still see your point, theres a lot of good players who could cast, but didn't.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by deleted_user »

Here's the thing about casting: it's more enjoyable to be a viewer.

You are able to participate with the chat, need not formulate sentences before you say them (constantly, for hours on end, impromptu), can be a fan, relax, enjoy the series in ease (is that not a viewer's expectation when tuning in to ESOCTV?). It's not that casting cannot be rewarding, it can be, but for entirely different reasons: for offering your mind and opinion to hundreds of listeners, aiding the community, aiding this game, providing a product in which others find joy. This is the novelty which sucks casters in and which wears with relative ease.

Not to mention there are the little stresses of setting up a stream and making sure everything is running smoothly and never not. The time commitment is deceptively large -- one cannot step away during a cast as one might as a viewer to accomplish little side tasks and chores.

I waited years to watch Mitoe in a grand finals and when the opportunity came I witnessed the brilliant outcome lacklusterly -- my entire energy directed towards being a caster rather than a friend and a fan.

I believe criticisms are nearly always valid and needed but never only criticisms. Supporting your casters (genuinely) is important! There is really no incentive to cast outside of one's own (ailing) motivation. Casting with a friend can help. This is why Kaiser and Queen cast so many games I am sure. Here are a couple of examples from my last cast which can really dampen morale:
Literally no tier 1 caster could cast, but I'm very happy with Chrisie and Callen

no offense, I was kinda more interested in a top player to cast this + someone entertaining

These remarks do not upset me. I know them to be true. But why should I return? I am not looking for compliments -- merely not this. Not happy with my casting? Well, fuck off (meaning I will fuck off). It's quite simple.

To be frank, I am the "ESOC Thought Police." I almost always feel the need to represent your antithesis, @momuuu. Rarely is what you say, in my interpretation, worded with constructiveness. As a caster nothing in this thread from you would motivate me to improve my casting ability or frequency. If anything it accomplishes the opposite. It's (probably) just me (maybe).
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by momuuu »

It's interesting to see how we got where we did. The first spring was amazing, with great casters too and lots of viewers for the finals. Then the next summer was a disaster, we switched to esoctv, there were lots of random streams at like 360p with bad mic quality, random casters, no announcements, no structure, nothing. The finals got like 200 viewers I think. Then the media team came into existance. It started out with simple goals: smoothly covert casts to youtube (Jim's task) and set a new stream standard (mostly me and bram I think). The latter we did by forcing 1080p on our stream only, by only having announced streams every week that were at least 2 series long and to add newsposts to follow the tourney's story. The idea was that quarantueing a certain quality of stream makes the notification "ESOCTV has gone live" valuable. Someone that sees that notification knows what is going to be on the stream, and then will be more likely to respond to it and start watching. If it's also possible that there's just some random games or low quality stream or whatever someone doesn't like as much, then one won't respond to that notification as much.

In this process, we also decided that the media team would decide who would cast when. We would make the schedule, so that all games were announced (and preferably previewed) in advance. The result was that whenever ESOCTV would go live, there'd be a match up that had been discussed in a preview (to get the hype up) with good casters in 1080p quality and then likely another one after that. This made the notification window so long that you'd rarely tune in to an ending or just starting stream, and there would always be match ups that had been announced and previewed, it would always be good quality and good casters. The media team coordinated this, and by doing so picked the casters. This gave us the ability to also judge what casters where better than others. I vaguely remember us having made a vague tierlist, and that we'd generally always ask people like zuta, inter, h2o or veni first. I think this was, in big part, kept up until after I left.

Near the end of when I left the media team a decline started to happen. Newspost didn't really show up as consistently anymore (though it was still fine) and then after I left they disappeared completely. The pickyness in terms of casters seemed to seize, especially as chrisie and edeholland started casting tons and tons of games. They do a good job, but it's not comparable to a high level player casting (or to my personal preference, a mid level native speaker casting). Chrisie doesn't even actually play the game. I don't really know why that happened. I guess in part because zuta and h2o became much more inactive, and replacements didn't really come up. I also think there might have been a bit too much of an elitist position. The media team always seemed to insist on people sending in a cast first so that they could just if they were good enough. Also, the system of asking the best casters was in big part replaced by a discord where casters could sort of claim casts. That became a bit of a problem in terms of making sure the best casters would cast the most, as people like interjection would almost never respond. Then the newsposts really truly disappeared, and the schedule ended up being a vague repetitive newspost with some wonky collection of games. ESOC stopped trying to organize smooth, long streams, and started casting tons of random games all the time. Right now, the stream will be up in advance for like an hour, then shows one series, that wasn't previewed or nicely announced, at some weird time of the day, and then goes offline again. The notification ESOCTV has gone live is worth nothing to me right now, as most of the time I just tune in to a waiting screen with a 50 minute timer or something for some match up that has not been hyped up at all. The aoeo streams surely didnt help this cause at all either. The only principle that made ESOCTV great (because lets face it, the initial work of the media team did some serious fucking work) that's left right now is the 1080p requirement, but the caster standard is at least quite a bit lower and the level of organisation is much lower too.

That's how I see the recent developments. Don't know if there's an easy fix. I'd love seeing newsposts come back, have fewer random streams with just a game (honestly just go back to mostly weekend games) with more games in a row, have much shorter stream time in advance (you have a 1.5 hour stream that you start up more than an hour in advance sometimes), and try to at least reach out to higher level players that could be decent casters. Also, it'd be nice if the youtube games sorta kept up with the tournament so that people that can't watch that many streams (like myself) can easily catch up with the tournament. Right now, the RO16 games only come online when it's like the semifinals. At that point, 80% of the series at least have been spoiled for me, so I end up not watching those either.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by momuuu »

deleted_user wrote:To be frank, I am the "ESOC Thought Police." I almost always feel the need to represent your antithesis, @momuuu. Rarely is what you say, in my interpretation, worded with constructiveness. As a caster nothing I've read in this thread from you would motivate me to improve my casting ability or frequency. If anything it accomplishes the opposite and I'll be darned if it's just me thinking that.

I think that's a rather odd statement. In the points I tried to make that come to memory I've been constructive if I recall. I don't feel like sugarcoating criticism that much though, but that doesn't make it nonconstructive.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by Kaiserklein »

deleted_user wrote:Here's the thing about casting: it's more enjoyable to be a viewer.

Not true for everyone. I enjoy casting way more than watching, most of the time. But I think a lot of people are like you on this point, and it's understandable.

deleted_user wrote:I waited years to watch Mitoe in a grand finals and when the opportunity came I witnessed the brilliant outcome in lackluster fashion -- my entire energy directed towards being a caster rather than a friend and a fan.

That's a good example linked to the first point. I love to cast a mate, it makes me even more motivated, for some reason. I'd have loved to cast these finals :p

deleted_user wrote:Casting with a friend can help. This is why Kaiser and Queen cast so many games I am sure.

Yeah that's true, it's motivating.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by deleted_user »

momuuu wrote:
deleted_user wrote:To be frank, I am the "ESOC Thought Police." I almost always feel the need to represent your antithesis, @momuuu. Rarely is what you say, in my interpretation, worded with constructiveness. As a caster nothing I've read in this thread from you would motivate me to improve my casting ability or frequency. If anything it accomplishes the opposite and I'll be darned if it's just me thinking that.

I think that's a rather odd statement. In the points I tried to make that come to memory I've been constructive if I recall. I don't feel like sugarcoating criticism that much though, but that doesn't make it nonconstructive.

I've since edited to say, "it's (probably) just me (maybe)." I've forgotten why I stopped wording everything with ambiguity. I'll begin again now, perhaps.

[edit] no, nevermind, your posts are actually just putting off casters -- nice! :lol:
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by noissance »

Perhaps I should have worded this differently:
Casting quality for the masses has improved, but unfortunately not for the try hard pricks that want to know every single action of every single second. There are recorded games you know.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by WickedCossack »

Kaiserklein wrote:Co-casters just randomly leave in the middle of the series, because the game is laggy, without actually waiting for a lag test to determine where the lag comes from.


Randomly? Oh comon dude.

You typed in the in-game chat to change casters and have the balls to say I randomly left.

I do the nice thing and switch out in the hope that the lag will improve and after the series you came and flamed me so hard for it and were so insanely toxic towards me in the discord chat afterwards. You didn't apologize for making me uncomfortable at all which I politely and specifically asked you not to do before the game but you don't give a shit about anyone else and instead came after me even harder.

You wonder why good casters don't cast anymore well a huge part is not wanting to put up with the absolute bullshit that players like you throw at them.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

Post by deleted_user »

Lol this drama still going on ^

Siding with Cossack, btw
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by zoom »

HAPPY BIRTHDEI, MITOE!!
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by Radix_Lecti »

Perhaps it's worthwhile to find out why the casters left/ are leaving?

I think Callen and wicked have verbalised many of my own thoughts on this matter.

I am still of a mind that a 3rd lt cast is better than no cast but I am always open to suggestions on this and would gladly have anyone better stream for me, lounging on my sofa is infinitely more comfortable an experience than stressing out over minute details. As Callen so rightly has pointed out: it can be quite an ordeal at times and afterwards you feel so spent/drained that 0 studying is possible. I too am wondering why on earth would we go on if the feedback basically amounts to: we would rather have had anyone but you. Personally I can still derive some use and purpose out of it professionally, hearing myself talk helps me a lot, but if it weren't for that then I too, would have wondered a bit about whether it would not be easier to lament the bad quality of the whole ESOC tourney experience from the comfort of the relative anonymity of the masses.

If you want that special expertise then probably you should pay 100 euros for Inters commitment. Let's have that discussion rather than discouraging more (future) casters.

@noissance I give you good karma back, you started something nice and it got hijacked relentlessly, also by myself.
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Re: Congratulations, esoc

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Post by momuuu »

Its just hard to cast if youre not that much in touch with the strategic sides of the game. What else is there to say in aoe? Its not an action packed game, theres a decent amount of down time thats most easily filled talking about the match up or the build order. But talking about that is hard as a lt. Id say the best bet is to try to stay as factual as you can, and avoid speaking with too much authority. Instead of saying "I think germany beats france" you would be better off saying "I wonder how france would deal with germany's free uhlan mass" or instead of "I dont like that hes shipping 700f here" you can say "I wonder why he shipped 700f in this scenario". Instead of saying "he doesnt have enough anticav" you'd be better off saying "I wonder if he has enough anticav". And if theres a knowledgable cocaster you would even rather ask him the questions. That'd be the way to improve. Also, obswrving from a chair probably helps too.

Its also just necessary to face that things didnt improve. Casting is just easier with good insight, as there will always be relevant things that pop up in your mind then. If I cast a match up I know well I feel like I almost have more remarks to make than time to make them, it really helps. To cast with less game knowledge, and then also remain correct in what youre saying, just requires a lot of skill but its doable. And ofc rather that someone casts than nobody.

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