WHY THAT?

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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:As the owner of this "public" discord, I can tell you it is not public.

_H2O wrote:We hope the best for Gendarme and he will not be banned or blocked from the community in any way.

lmao. I think you should pray for yourself instead lol.
Ban people for making threads about pool chemicals but being a literal nazi is fine!
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

_H2O wrote:Unfortunately Gendarme was posting some extremely hateful images and making statements that do not align with ESOC's brand. Those statements were made in a public discord server that is known as "The Hub" where some AoE3 players chat. The images portrayed support for the return of Hitler, and a hatred of black, gay, and jewish people. Regardless of intentions, the statements are highly inappropriate to make and were the sole cause for his removal. This was not the first time the issue was raised with in our team.

Two common questions I would like to directly address:
1. Why can't a staff member post whatever they would like to in a non-ESOC setting? What about the freedom of speech?
Gendarme absolutely has every right to post whatever he wants where ever he wants to. In that same regard ESOC has a right to distance themselves from content and people it finds reflect poorly on its image. Simply put, we do not want to be associated in any way with that type of content. While ESOC is not a company, it is a group. Our group will not be associating with this content.

2. Gendarme has denied that he holds those views and is posting these pictures for other reasons, so it should be okay.
Two things on this statement. The first one is that regardless of the intention for posting those images, having them posted and associated with an ESOC team member reflects poorly on us. The second is that when you post 100 memes and spend a lot of time reading and socializing around this content, it is not reasonable or possible to simply deny you hold those views and have it be taken seriously. There is a large audience that will not view the images in question and find it a light or joking matter.

We hope the best for Gendarme and he will not be banned or blocked from the community in any way.

Thanks for the answer and yes it's your decision who work with you and who not... But did he got warned?

But where are the answer about sirmusket?
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

This isn't a company. It's a fucking burden to be part of esoc already.. You're not allowed to really have a controversial opinion on the forums or behave like a normal forum member, you have to behave in all twitch chats and discord servers. And now you can't even have fun with friends on a private discord server.

No surprise a staff member leaves/is kicked every other week basically and all staff members have basically given up being active. But ESOC thought police is still going strong. Hail mank-il.
There's a difference between having a controversial opinion and being antisemitic, which in my opinion isn't a controversial opinion but in fact a disgusting belief. And it would be fine to be antisemitic in a small discord server with just your friends who share similar beliefs. What's probably not fine is parroting those beliefs in the 2nd biggest aoe3 server. You aren't even making sense. Blatant racism, sexism, and all sorts of other hate is already allowed on the forum. It's funny how you've gone from "permaban anyone who makes a thread about pool chemicals" to getting pissed when a racist is removed from the staff. That really tells alot about your priorities and you personally. Also, no one even knows the real reason why he was removed, it's all speculation at this point. It could be for reasons completely different. Personally I would have removed him the first time I saw comments from newer members who were shocked that someone parroting his outdated beliefs was allowed to be staff.

Well for one, I do know the real reason he was removed. He made some memes, it's a joke position to combat the PC environment of society by going way over the top - at least it surely is in gendarme's case.

Also I think you are really not understanding the difference between for example this situation and the spamming threads. There's hardly any equivalance between the two scenarios.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:
gibson wrote:
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There's a difference between having a controversial opinion and being antisemitic, which in my opinion isn't a controversial opinion but in fact a disgusting belief. And it would be fine to be antisemitic in a small discord server with just your friends who share similar beliefs. What's probably not fine is parroting those beliefs in the 2nd biggest aoe3 server. You aren't even making sense. Blatant racism, sexism, and all sorts of other hate is already allowed on the forum. It's funny how you've gone from "permaban anyone who makes a thread about pool chemicals" to getting pissed when a racist is removed from the staff. That really tells alot about your priorities and you personally. Also, no one even knows the real reason why he was removed, it's all speculation at this point. It could be for reasons completely different. Personally I would have removed him the first time I saw comments from newer members who were shocked that someone parroting his outdated beliefs was allowed to be staff.

Well for one, I do know the real reason he was removed. He made some memes, it's a joke position to combat the PC environment of society by going way over the top - at least it surely is in gendarme's case.

Also I think you are really not understanding the difference between for example this situation and the spamming threads. There's hardly any equivalance between the two scenarios.
Yea you think he was joking. He's been making antisemitic comments in various discord servers over the past year, its not a new thing. He's admitted to being a member of sites like stormfront. It boggles my mind how you can really say "you're not understating the difference" as you defend someone, who at the very least has a strong dislike for jews and muslims simply because they are jewish and muslim, who wasn't even banned from the forums, rather just removed from the staff. It shows how pathetic you are really. You got pissed cause people were spamming threads that you "had to look at", but its fine for someone to be racist just as long as it doesn't effect me. It's fine for someone to agree with the people who were systematically trying to remove an entire race from the face of the earth, I mean you're not jewish or mulsim, so why should you care? What do I know, I guess I'm just overly pc and an sjw since I don't think it reflects well on esoc to have people who believe those things on the staff. Jesus fucking Christ.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by momuuu »

Theres a difference in that they're completely unrelated in every aspect except that it's about people involved in aoe3. It's just.. they're not the same in any sense. There's nothing that can be compared. Please use your brain man.

I don't care what anyone thinks. I think it is not okay to post anti semitic stuff on this forum probably - for esoc wouldn't find that acceptable. I also don't dislike nazi memes that much. They're jokes, anything should be something you can joke about, in my opinion.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

... Why people play secret Hitler?...

Bc it's a joke.. Should only nazi play this?
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:Theres a difference in that they're completely unrelated in every aspect except that it's about people involved in aoe3. It's just.. they're not the same in any sense. There's nothing that can be compared. Please use your brain man.

I don't care what anyone thinks. I think it is not okay to post anti semitic stuff on this forum probably - for esoc wouldn't find that acceptable. I also don't dislike nazi memes that much. They're jokes, anything should be something you can joke about, in my opinion.
And for esoc its clearly not fine for a staff member to be anti semitic, maybe for you thats okay but for some reason you're refusing to see how having a staff member who's antisemitic could reflect poorly on the forums. The fact that you can't see that boggles my mind.

queenofdestiny wrote:... Why people play secret Hitler?...

Bc it's a joke.. Should only nazi play this?

Does the game condone the mass extinction of an entire people? If it does, it's certainly in poor taste. If not, its probably fine.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:Theres a difference in that they're completely unrelated in every aspect except that it's about people involved in aoe3. It's just.. they're not the same in any sense. There's nothing that can be compared. Please use your brain man.

I don't care what anyone thinks. I think it is not okay to post anti semitic stuff on this forum probably - for esoc wouldn't find that acceptable. I also don't dislike nazi memes that much. They're jokes, anything should be something you can joke about, in my opinion.
And for esoc its clearly not fine for a staff member to be anti semitic, maybe for you thats okay but for some reason you're refusing to see how having a staff member who's antisemitic could reflect poorly on the forums. The fact that you can't see that boggles my mind.

queenofdestiny wrote:... Why people play secret Hitler?...

Bc it's a joke.. Should only nazi play this?

Does the game condone the mass extinction of an entire people? If it does, it's certainly in poor taste. If not, its probably fine.

Based on what gendarme was removed, it's impossible to call him anti semitic. I also don't even know how a private server reflects on esoc, and I also think that as a volunteer on a site like this one it's not as bad to make nazi memes in private lol.

In the end obviously the reason this could be done was in part that gendarme is lazy haha. But it's just funny how fucked up the esoc environment is.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by kami_ryu »

I definitely understand the sentiment from Bramboy and Jerom.

I was 50-50 on this decision, like many other staff members. I think that if we're going to be a 50-50, then we should just accept the outcome when a decision a made. It's not like it doesn't make sense to let someone go who has been posting stuff ESOC doesn't want to be associated with. That's a legitimate reason. Also I think that the concern over bigotry is a legitimate one.

Unfortunately I still don't know Gendarme well enough to judge for myself (since I'm not interested in being told by others what to believe) if I were truly anti-semite. That's not the point. The thing is that if he looks like one, then that's enough for ESOC to cut ties.

Of course we may end up getting short of staff members really quickly. We all make disgusting, racist jokes all the time. We're all pieces of shit behind closed doors when no one is listening. So singling out Gendarme is probably a little hypocritical especially considering some of the stuff I've seen come out of other staff members. I won't go into that, I think people are free to believe what they want. What matters is ESOC's "image"

You guys are awfully quick, a little too quick, to resort to personal attacks. Would make a little more sense to discuss the decision itself, how this could have been handled better. Did Gendarme get a chance to discuss anything before being kicked? Did ESOC attempt to find a compromise before this decision was made? There are other ways to protect ESOC's image that we probably didn't think of in the heat of the moment. A thread was opened in the small claims court concerning this issue (a very legitimate thread) and only 2 or 3 staff members answered. After a few days Gendarme was just out, so clearly the discussion regarding that decision had taken place somewhere else. No public statement either, which is why this thread was opened. I don't mind the decision but I wonder about the process, which is probably why many others have their own thing to say in this thread.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

Give me a bit of time and I can pull up tens if not hundreds of blatant sexist, racist, and islamaphobic things he said in site's discord lol, although I probably won't because I'm lazy and don't really feel the need to demonstrate to you that he's racist since I already know that he is. It's already been shown that it wasn't in private, and literally everyone knows about it so it doesn't matter whether or not it was in a private server or not. Some things aren't meant to be joked about. If you think antisemiticism is something to be joked about, I suggest visiting the holocaust museum. It's a horrible experience and makes you feel like shit but is something everyone should do at some point. Even if he isn't antisemitic and it all was a joke, it's still enough to warrant removal from staff. It doesn't make me angry, it just makes me sad. Seeing pictures of people who were tortured to death by Nazis in the name of scientific advance, children who were shot in the head and thrown into mass graves, women who are raped, tortured and killed. And somehow this is something to be joked about? A regime whose actions were directly responsible for a war that ended with 80 million people dead is something to joke about? The only way you can joke about that is if you're uneducated or have no empathy. Or I guess if you believe a lot of the people who died were inferior. As someone who had relatives ( family of one of my great uncles) who were Jewish and were killed in Germany during WWII, I find things like that highly offensive. Call me sensitive, but it's much more real to me than it probably is to most other people and I personally have a dislike of genderme due to antisemitic things he's said in site's discord server.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by momuuu »

I've visited holocaust museums, it's indeed sad. But everything can be joked about, it's a personal belief I have. I honestly even think every opinion, even an anti-semitic one, should be allowed. But there's no harm in making jokes. From the things I have read, Gendarme has only made jokes and the basis of his removal is simply memes. I don't even know why gendarme was targeted like that, as there's many staff members in that discord. Actually I do know, its because the unstable troll team callen and the ear have started a crusade against him.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by kami_ryu »

gibson wrote:Give me a bit of time and I can pull up tens if not hundreds of blatant sexist, racist, and islamaphobic things he said in site's discord lol, although I probably won't because I'm lazy and don't really feel the need to demonstrate to you that he's racist since I already know that he is. It's already been shown that it wasn't in private, and literally everyone knows about it so it doesn't matter whether or not it was in a private server or not. Some things aren't meant to be joked about. If you think antisemiticism is something to be joked about, I suggest visiting the holocaust museum. It's a horrible experience and makes you feel like shit but is something everyone should do at some point. Even if he isn't antisemitic and it all was a joke, it's still enough to warrant removal from staff. It doesn't make me angry, it just makes me sad. Seeing pictures of people who were tortured to death by Nazis in the name of scientific advance, children who were shot in the head and thrown into mass graves, women who are raped, tortured and killed. And somehow this is something to be joked about? A regime whose actions were directly responsible for a war that ended with 80 million people dead is something to joke about? The only way you can joke about that is if you're uneducated or have no empathy. Or I guess if you believe a lot of the people who died were inferior. As someone who had relatives ( family of one of my great uncles) who were Jewish and were killed in Germany during WWII, I find things like that highly offensive. Call me sensitive, but it's much more real to me than it probably is to most other people and I personally have a dislike of genderme due to antisemitic things he's said in site's discord server.


I mean I don't disagree. The holocaust was a horrible thing which happened, I don't think anyone is denying that. Though there are many comparable events in history anyway. People will joke about anything though, regardless of whether or not you like it, it has nothing to do with what you want people to joke about. I also think that's fine. There shouldn't be taboo topics that you're not allowed to joke about. That's all besides the point however.

I'm not defending Gendarme or anything, or the decision itself. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how the decision was made because frankly I and most other people weren't really consulted about it. Which is fine in my case, I'm not really active on ESOC anyway. :P
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:I've visited holocaust museums, it's indeed sad. But everything can be joked about, it's a personal belief I have. I honestly even think every opinion, even an anti-semitic one, should be allowed. But there's no harm in making jokes. From the things I have read, Gendarme has only made jokes and the basis of his removal is simply memes. I don't even know why gendarme was targeted like that, as there's many staff members in that discord. Actually I do know, its because the unstable troll team callen and the ear have started a crusade against him.

Any opinion and jokes besides pool chemicals right?
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by Sargsyan »

momuuu wrote:I've visited holocaust museums, it's indeed sad. But everything can be joked about, it's a personal belief I have. I honestly even think every opinion, even an anti-semitic one, should be allowed. But there's no harm in making jokes. From the things I have read, Gendarme has only made jokes and the basis of his removal is simply memes. I don't even know why gendarme was targeted like that, as there's many staff members in that discord. Actually I do know, its because the unstable troll team callen and the ear have started a crusade against him.

U have no morals if u think its ok to joke on everything
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by TheInvincibleJannisary »

Gendarme fought for free of speech and lost. He is the true martyr of AOE3.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by kami_ryu »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:I've visited holocaust museums, it's indeed sad. But everything can be joked about, it's a personal belief I have. I honestly even think every opinion, even an anti-semitic one, should be allowed. But there's no harm in making jokes. From the things I have read, Gendarme has only made jokes and the basis of his removal is simply memes. I don't even know why gendarme was targeted like that, as there's many staff members in that discord. Actually I do know, its because the unstable troll team callen and the ear have started a crusade against him.

Any opinion and jokes besides pool chemicals right?


I don't understand. ff hasn't been banned or otherwise had issues opening those threads from the staff team. So what's the problem? If people find those threads annoying, that's also their prerogative.
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Re: WHY THAT?

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_H2O wrote:While ESOC is not a company, it is a group. Our group will not be associating with this content.


One second. Who are you to decide this? Who gave you this authority to make such decisions? Who is "our group"? I thought this was an AOE3 community site, not some group's business.

I mean, I buried the hatchet about the whole stuff that happened when I was removed from ESOC administration, but I see this pattern is happening again. And I can't stay silent on this.

You guys are taking yourselves way too seriously for a small site. Unless you had plans to turn this into a business at some point. It's just a community site, which is not affiliated with any big company, you don't have anything to lose whatever gets posted here. Let alone what some ESOC dev posts on their own discord server. What are you going to do next, stalk them on other social media to make background checks on them?

Are you afraid someone will take screenshots with what one dev posts in their discord servers and send them to Microsoft and then ... something bad happens?
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by benj89 »

At this point I just hope that people like gibson and sircallen aren't defining what's moral and what isn't, or soon enough not a single joke will be allowed on this forum. ESOC is the only online forum I check daily since a few years now, hope that won't happen
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

kami_ryu wrote:
gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:I've visited holocaust museums, it's indeed sad. But everything can be joked about, it's a personal belief I have. I honestly even think every opinion, even an anti-semitic one, should be allowed. But there's no harm in making jokes. From the things I have read, Gendarme has only made jokes and the basis of his removal is simply memes. I don't even know why gendarme was targeted like that, as there's many staff members in that discord. Actually I do know, its because the unstable troll team callen and the ear have started a crusade against him.

Any opinion and jokes besides pool chemicals right?


I don't understand. ff hasn't been banned or otherwise had issues opening those threads from the staff team. So what's the problem? If people find those threads annoying, that's also their prerogative.
I'm speaking to jerom, who believes that ff and evilcheader should still be banned.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by TheInvincibleJannisary »

You guys need to chill out lol.. Lets ban this guy and this guy!!! lmao
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by Dolan »

Heck, you know how Romanians get called gypsy on every social media now? It'd be dumb to feel offended, it's just a meme.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

benj89 wrote:At this point I just hope that people like gibson and sircallen aren't defining what's moral and what isn't, or soon enough not a single joke will be allowed on this forum. ESOC is the only online forum I check daily since a few years now, hope that won't happen

Generally speaking I don't define what's moral and whats not. Here, however, I am going to make a statement that I believe the mass extinction of an entire race is immoral. I also believe that people who appear to genuinely be antisemitic or support actual nazis ( not just calling someone a nazi cause you don't agree with them, but someone who supports the national socialist german workers party or any neo version of it) should not be on esoc staff. If you disagree with anything I just said I'll be happy to debate you about it.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by kami_ryu »

gibson wrote:
benj89 wrote:At this point I just hope that people like gibson and sircallen aren't defining what's moral and what isn't, or soon enough not a single joke will be allowed on this forum. ESOC is the only online forum I check daily since a few years now, hope that won't happen

Generally speaking I don't define what's moral and whats not. Here, however, I am going to make a statement that I believe the mass extinction of an entire race is immoral. I also believe that people who appear to genuinely be antisemitic or support actual nazis ( not just calling someone a nazi cause you don't agree with them, but someone who supports the national socialist german workers party or any neo version of it) should not be on esoc staff. If you disagree with anything I just said I'll be happy to debate you about it.


I don't think that anyone disagrees with that.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by gibson »

kami_ryu wrote:
gibson wrote:
benj89 wrote:At this point I just hope that people like gibson and sircallen aren't defining what's moral and what isn't, or soon enough not a single joke will be allowed on this forum. ESOC is the only online forum I check daily since a few years now, hope that won't happen

Generally speaking I don't define what's moral and whats not. Here, however, I am going to make a statement that I believe the mass extinction of an entire race is immoral. I also believe that people who appear to genuinely be antisemitic or support actual nazis ( not just calling someone a nazi cause you don't agree with them, but someone who supports the national socialist german workers party or any neo version of it) should not be on esoc staff. If you disagree with anything I just said I'll be happy to debate you about it.


I don't think that anyone disagrees with that.
Jerom does, he's stated several times that people should be able to have whatever opinion they want and still be on staff.
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Re: WHY THAT?

Post by edeholland »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:I've visited holocaust museums, it's indeed sad. But everything can be joked about, it's a personal belief I have. I honestly even think every opinion, even an anti-semitic one, should be allowed. But there's no harm in making jokes. From the things I have read, Gendarme has only made jokes and the basis of his removal is simply memes. I don't even know why gendarme was targeted like that, as there's many staff members in that discord. Actually I do know, its because the unstable troll team callen and the ear have started a crusade against him.

Any opinion and jokes besides pool chemicals right?

I think his problem with those jokes is that they are cluttering the forum and annoying to some users, not because they are jokes that should not be allowed.

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