a question of rank

Bhutan jgals
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a question of rank

Post by jgals »

I know there have been other threads about rank lately. This one is a bit different. I would like to hear from some of the better players who visit this forum especially.

I basically peaked at MS last time I was playing AOE heavy, and this time as well. I know if I picked my matches more carefully and teamed less I would be higher, probably like a leutenit or so. And if I really got dedicated I am pretty certain I could reach higher.

Most of the time I know more about the game than anyone I play with, and most of the time I win. But i see that pr 15-19 is kind of a sweet spot in a dead server with no games.

There are daily frustrations of some ass hole MS who actually doesnt know jack shit and you wonder how he ever got above corporal (I call those reverse smurfs) , but for the most part the MS player seems to have a pretty solid grasp on the way the game works and how to do it as well as micro. They might not employ all the top build order and make some micro mistakes, but for the most part they can play. So back when I was playing a fuck ton I decided thats where I wanted to be, and basically didn't take winning too seriously. Lately though I have been wanting to move up the line a bit because the sergeant MS of today piss me off a lot more than they used to. I think i'd rather play with higher levels and be more challenged

So twofold question

1. Is it worth it? Are there really enough games to find at the lieutenant and above level? Sometimes i feel like majors and captains all plan with each other when to come online

2. What is in your eyes the real difference in an MS and a captain or major, what is it that really makes the difference to get them ahead? Micro macro build orders picking matchups better? All of the above?
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Re: a question of rank

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Post by Rikikipu »

1. Until lieuenant / captain you still find games, pretty fast. Above that it becomes really hard

2. MS just doesn't have good Buiild Orders.
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Sweden Gendarme
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Post by Gendarme »

Riki is right.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by japanesegeneral »

I would not say that every ms has shitty build orders. I think some lack knowledge of proper unit compositions, some don't know anything about timings others don't know how to herd. Some of them lack the ability to adapt.
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Post by Snuden »

I agree with Japanesegeneral. Especially the ability to adapt is a big hurdle for the average MS. Combine this with bad micro and a game vs a pr15 can be challenging.
Don't even get me started on timings.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by lemmings121 »

1- until major you can get games easily, above that becomes harder
2- Pretty much everything changes. the higher you go, the more important details become. micro, macro, decisions, everything will be have to be improved to jump those 10pr. (also, the amout of game knowledge rises exponentially, so to get to pr30, you will probably take 10 times as long as it took to get to pr18)
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Sargsyan »

I think timing is very important if you want to improve.when you play with france and age in 3:20 instead of 3:05 hell that makes alot of difference.most of ms dont give a shit about it and get punished against lts for that
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Re: a question of rank

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Post by Mitoe »

It's really not that difficult to find games as long as you're below pr30, and I think even up until 32-33 it's still relatively easy, although it does depend on your timezone and what times you like to log on and play.


Overall, master sergeants have a good grasp of the basics of the game, I think. They know that they need to gather food to age, maybe herd a bit, not to invest into early mills or plantations, and some bare-bones builds—whether it's something of their own creation or something they learned or saw from a better player it's usually something relatively straightforward with 1 or 2 clear goals or win conditions and they perform it adequately for their level of play. Usually they are either very passive or very aggressive, and tend to struggle when someone tries to play differently from how they're used to. They also tend to use units that are really hard to counter without good unit control—musketeer-type units, dopps/rods, cuirs, cannons, etc—basically anything that doesn't get punished super hard if you aren't paying a lot of attention to your army, and very rarely do they change up their unit composition based on what their opponent is doing.

Someone at the captain level takes that quite a bit further. They have the fundamentals down, and often exercise a few lesser-known good habits in their play as well. Usually captains are relatively proficient with several different builds, sometimes even with multiple civs, and even try to scout (well... sometimes) or adapt their build/unit composition to what their opponent's doing. They also usually have acceptable micro, and musketeer/melee infantry are less common at a captain level than at a master sergeant level because of this, I think. Honestly a lot of players at this level could probably even be ranked higher, but I feel like I see a lot of captains refuse to give up bad habits in spite of knowing that they're bad or refuse to adapt to certain styles of play, etc.


If I had to guess, I think the biggest differences between a master sergeant and a captain is probably their awareness of the map, its resources, and how it should affect their plan or build order. I feel like master sergeants often try too hard to turtle with towers and forts and stuff, or switch to mills or berries or plantations or w/e a lot earlier than higher level players, and it puts them at a pretty severe disadvantage, IMO.

The better you get at AoE3, the more important map control and timing the strong points of your build around the number of resources you have left or will need to get control over becomes. Most of the highest level AoE3 games between players of equal skill are won based on who can force the other player off of natural resources first or prevent them from reaching new resources, with very few exceptions.

There is still a pretty big difference solely in terms of macro and micro between a master sergeant and a captain, but I think this is probably the largest difference between the two.
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Re: a question of rank

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Post by outta_key_ »

Hey Mitoe I really enjoyed reading this summary. Would you mind applying the same analysis in regards to the jump between captain and colonel? I would be interested to hear your insight.
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Post by Mitoe »

For the jump between Captain and Colonel, honestly it's a lot of the same stuff, with more attention to detail. I feel like at lower levels of play, you don't need to focus on your opponent so much. If you just focus entirely on your own gameplay, and on not making mistakes, or improving your macro or micro, etc. you can still get better relatively easily. You can only improve these things so much, though, and once you start getting to the higher levels of play it becomes more important to pay attention to your opponent than it does to focus on yourself.

For example, Colonels are a lot more likely to scout and try to find out what their opponent is up to in general—or even to hide what they're doing from their opponent. Timings are a lot more important at this level of play, and information becomes really important because it determines how you can best setup that timing for yourself or defend a timing from your opponent.

To provide a vague example: if you scout your opponent rushing as say, Russia, but then note that they're constructing a lot of trading posts after the initial push, you can infer that they've likely shipped 700w after their 5 cossack card instead of a follow up 4 cossack card and can adapt your build to try to punish that window where they're investing more into trading posts and less into military units. On the other hand, if you don't see anything like this, and they continue to try to pressure your base with military shipment after military shipment, a colonel-level player will try to base the strong point in their build around the same time that the natural resources in their base run thin, and they need to push out for additional resources.

More info on timings for those interested: http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=13209#p279286


Another major difference is the importance of mechanics. At lower levels you can get away with mediocre unit control as long as you're on top of your macro and investing in the correct unit composition and just in general doing relatively solid builds, and since neither of you are really playing perfectly, the winner will usually be the person who just has more units, or who manages to pull off a good raid while the other isn't paying attention or something like that.

At higher levels, though, the value you get out of your military units is important. You can't afford to lose 2-3 units for free in random trades and still expect to win by following the same plan or build you had intended to follow before you lost those units. Taking 2 or 3 bad trades can mean that your opponent is ahead of you by 1000 resources or more.

A lot of lower-ranked players will just re-invest this into more units and just keep beating their face against the wall until it breaks, a higher level player will invest that lead into something like an age up, stagecoach TPs, a 2nd TC, or some other economic or tech-related investment that will effectively grow that lead from 1000 resources to 2000 resources or more in time. At the same time, a lot of players at this level will have ways of making sure that they're not instantly out of the game after a few mistakes like this, whether its by raiding and out-playing the other player in the sheer number of events they need to worry about, or by sacrificing economy to generate a temporary military lead, or switching up their unit composition in an unexpected manner; usually they don't just roll over and die because they're at a disadvantage.

Basically, at a high level losing a few units for free doesn't mean you're only going to be down a few units. A Colonel will invest a small lead into something that will give them a decisive lead later, while at the same time change up their play to try to dig themselves out of a deficit, depending on which situation they find themselves in. Captains, I think, do not often go about this the same way or as effectively when they do.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Snuden »

@Mitoe "know they have to gather food in order to age" & "maybe herd a bit" errr...

Most of the MS' and 2lt I play know damn well how to gather food, herd and quite often have very good micro. What is really strange is the huge difference in some MS', which lead me to believe that a lot of them are smurfs. I'm personally what is considered a bad player, sometimes I literally wipe the map with my opponent, while other times I'm clearly outplayed almost to the point of embarrassment.
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Re: a question of rank

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Post by Mitoe »

Well, usually when I've seen master sergeants play I feel like their herding and micro are actually pretty poor. I can see how the whole "gather food to age" thing might've sounded a bit condescending maybe? I was just trying to summarize some of the basics of the game, I guess—didn't mean to offend.

Inconsistency makes sense to me because I feel like most players around this level won't know how to adapt to every situation, and are probably only comfortable with a few styles of play.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Snuden »

I think the biggest issue is that ms/2lt don't know how strong or weak they are compared to their opponent, making it impossible to do the right thing.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Gendarme »

Until Lieutenant/Captain it is mostly mechanics that are lacking for sure. I think Master Sergeants quite often macro poorly to the extent of not getting 5 hussars the first batch or even not aging up with the intended number of settlers. Stealing treasures from and raiding Master Sergeants is also extremely easy. Build orders and strategy don't really help you at that point.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by PeachTree »

There is this guy who I've seen host unrated only games "1v1 unr". Does this mean he's much better than his rank?
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Re: a question of rank

Post by P i k i l i c »

@PeachTree This means that his name is Greatscythe11. Or Delicious_PIZZA. Unless it is AmericanCa3oar who is indeed much better than conscript with his Portuguese semi-FI
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Sargsyan »

P i k i l i c wrote:@PeachTree This means that his name is Greatscythe11

Lol that guy always plays unrated with his shite german strategy
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Challenger_Marco »

Alright nice write ups by above people , however I wanna share my thoughts as I have experienced the same.i was once a MS now a captain ,how?
Well when r at MS level u dont know what to do Vs what civ ,unsure about the card orders ,macro & micro would not be efficient .Ms/2nd Lt know the basics but they will be unsure about everything like what should I do after that should I push? When should I push? All the things will be a question mark ,u won't know the timings very well etc.And mainly play naked builds that makes u comfortable but u can't win.So basically all these things must be improved.
These improvements can be done easily ,if you very eager to get to higher ranks.
For macro -Learn from playing team games.
For Micro-Try to play with hotkeys
Decision making/Timings-By practicing 1v1
Card Order- you need to learn the game mechanics (practice 1v1)
Build Order-Recorded Games,Streams etc
Basically practice , practice 1v1
And loose many times u can and learn the mistakes and develop.The fact that history never repeats itself and must learn from mistakes committed from the past must be the way.
By atleast mastering this reaching captain easy ,then mechanics,etc.
:nwc:
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Re: a question of rank

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Post by tedere12 »

Challenger_Marco wrote:Alright nice write ups by above people , however I wanna share my thoughts as I have experienced the same.i was once a MS now a captain ,how?
Well when r at MS level u dont know what to do Vs what civ ,unsure about the card orders ,macro & micro would not be efficient .Ms/2nd Lt know the basics but they will be unsure about everything like what should I do after that should I push? When should I push? All the things will be a question mark ,u won't know the timings very well etc.And mainly play naked builds that makes u comfortable but u can't win.So basically all these things must be improved.
These improvements can be done easily ,if you very eager to get to higher ranks.
For macro -Learn from playing team games.
For Micro-Try to play with hotkeys
Decision making/Timings-By practicing 1v1
Card Order- you need to learn the game mechanics (practice 1v1)
Build Order-Recorded Games,Streams etc
Basically practice , practice 1v1
And loose many times u can and learn the mistakes and develop.The fact that history never repeats itself and must learn from mistakes committed from the past must be the way.
By atleast mastering this reaching captain easy ,then mechanics,etc.

you forgot to mention that they should play vs 2nd lt and below http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... atestmatch
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Re: a question of rank

Post by deleted_user »

rofl
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Re: a question of rank

Post by bigsmoke »

Challenger_Marco wrote:i was once a MS now a captain ,how?


I would like to know how too
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Re: a question of rank

Post by deleted_user »

Mitoe really nailed it all on the head, and I can recognize the same ailments holding me back as he mentions: lack of (consistent) scouting, lack of adaptation, lack of awareness of opponent's build, lack of organizing timings around that information, losing units for free. Sometimes stars align and I have games where I don't do these things, and that's when I can beat better players.

Mechanics and a few solid builds can take you to captain. Either more mechanics or more information/adaptability/reconnaissance can take you further. For best results, try to maximize both. That's where the top players are. How do you do this? Play a lot, watch a lot.

I think there's an attitude a lot of people have, including myself, that says part of their game is "good enough." Like, "I don't need hotkeys, my mouse is fast." Or "I don't need to watch that loss, I know what I did wrong." People sometimes post about how to get better, and we all would like to get better, but it really takes a lot of time and effort and shit, like a lot of time, just as anything does. Is your time worth that? Do you like AoE enough to put in time? Could you put it somewhere else, like learning an instrument? lol
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Challenger_Marco »

tedere12 wrote:
Challenger_Marco wrote:Alright nice write ups by above people , however I wanna share my thoughts as I have experienced the same.i was once a MS now a captain ,how?
Well when r at MS level u dont know what to do Vs what civ ,unsure about the card orders ,macro & micro would not be efficient .Ms/2nd Lt know the basics but they will be unsure about everything like what should I do after that should I push? When should I push? All the things will be a question mark ,u won't know the timings very well etc.And mainly play naked builds that makes u comfortable but u can't win.So basically all these things must be improved.
These improvements can be done easily ,if you very eager to get to higher ranks.
For macro -Learn from playing team games.
For Micro-Try to play with hotkeys
Decision making/Timings-By practicing 1v1
Card Order- you need to learn the game mechanics (practice 1v1)
Build Order-Recorded Games,Streams etc
Basically practice , practice 1v1
And loose many times u can and learn the mistakes and develop.The fact that history never repeats itself and must learn from mistakes committed from the past must be the way.
By atleast mastering this reaching captain easy ,then mechanics,etc.

you forgot to mention that they should play vs 2nd lt and below http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... atestmatch

You noob check my nilla status I'm not tad player.Only just recently.My main account was not this if u want to check my history.
:nwc:
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Re: a question of rank

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Post by sirmusket »

Challenger_Marco wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
Challenger_Marco wrote:Alright nice write ups by above people , however I wanna share my thoughts as I have experienced the same.i was once a MS now a captain ,how?
Well when r at MS level u dont know what to do Vs what civ ,unsure about the card orders ,macro & micro would not be efficient .Ms/2nd Lt know the basics but they will be unsure about everything like what should I do after that should I push? When should I push? All the things will be a question mark ,u won't know the timings very well etc.And mainly play naked builds that makes u comfortable but u can't win.So basically all these things must be improved.
These improvements can be done easily ,if you very eager to get to higher ranks.
For macro -Learn from playing team games.
For Micro-Try to play with hotkeys
Decision making/Timings-By practicing 1v1
Card Order- you need to learn the game mechanics (practice 1v1)
Build Order-Recorded Games,Streams etc
Basically practice , practice 1v1
And loose many times u can and learn the mistakes and develop.The fact that history never repeats itself and must learn from mistakes committed from the past must be the way.
By atleast mastering this reaching captain easy ,then mechanics,etc.

you forgot to mention that they should play vs 2nd lt and below http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... atestmatch

You noob check my nilla status I'm not tad player.Only just recently.My main account was not this if u want to check my history.

Why do you call him noob? When he would beat you 10 to 0. That's besides the point, nilla isn't really a good indication of your rank imo atleast. You will find a lot of players who are 1st lt/captain on TAD easily get to pr30+ on Nilla. That's why a lot of people say Nilla is fake rank (which it kind of is). All your tad games are verse people pr15-20. With one exception where you versed a pr24. You even versed a PR which was -2.46 lol.
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Re: a question of rank

Post by Challenger_Marco »

Lol dude that was my friend playing on my account.
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