explorer fast shooting

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Brazil lemmings121
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by lemmings121 »

what the hell are you even discussing? just for the sake of creating drama?

tldr:

-do you think monitors reloading in 0,3s is a good thing?
-no.
-then lets consider this a exploit and ban from games.

the end.


no need to bring sc2 analogies or make garja define "objectively " lol
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

Sorry, I didn't know you're not supposed to bring arguments on the table in a discussion.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by lemmings121 »

momuuu wrote:Sorry, I didn't know you're not supposed to bring arguments on the table in a discussion.


-do you think monitors reloading in 0,3s is a good thing?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

lemmings121 wrote:
momuuu wrote:Sorry, I didn't know you're not supposed to bring arguments on the table in a discussion.

-do you think monitors reloading in 0,3s is a good thing?

I do not, although I also wonder if it's that bad of a deal. It's very micro intensive and in reality you're dead if a monitor is in shooting range of your entire town on a map like great lakes haha.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by lemmings121 »

momuuu wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
momuuu wrote:Sorry, I didn't know you're not supposed to bring arguments on the table in a discussion.

-do you think monitors reloading in 0,3s is a good thing?

I do not, although I also wonder if it's that bad of a deal. It's very micro intensive and in reality you're dead if a monitor is in shooting range of your entire town on a map like great lakes haha.


-then lets consider this a exploit and ban from games.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

lemmings121 wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I do not, although I also wonder if it's that bad of a deal. It's very micro intensive and in reality you're dead if a monitor is in shooting range of your entire town on a map like great lakes haha.


-then lets consider this a exploid and ban from games.

But don't you think the generic trick is extremely cool? I don't know how hard it is, but it's honestly a cool mechanic and doesn't sound very easy to me. It's worth consideration, just like how I think alt-d is worth considering. My point is that almost nobody gives it any consideration because somehow a big part of the aoe community is convinced all glitch exploits are terrible and that those are per definition cheating. One should at least wonder if it's a good gameplay mechanic, and I definitely think both have positive sides to it. For example, a reasonable position could also be that we only condone this trick on explorers.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by lemmings121 »

momuuu wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


-then lets consider this a exploid and ban from games.

But don't you think the generic trick is extremely cool? I don't know how hard it is, but it's honestly a cool mechanic and doesn't sound very easy to me. It's worth consideration, just like how I think alt-d is worth considering. My point is that almost nobody gives it any consideration because somehow a big part of the aoe community is convinced all glitch exploits are terrible and that those are per definition cheating. One should at least wonder if it's a good gameplay mechanic, and I definitely think both have positive sides to it. For example, a reasonable position could also be that we only condone this trick on explorers.


machine gun iro explorer vs everything, that will be fun to meet on qs in the next weeks...
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

lemmings121 wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

But don't you think the generic trick is extremely cool? I don't know how hard it is, but it's honestly a cool mechanic and doesn't sound very easy to me. It's worth consideration, just like how I think alt-d is worth considering. My point is that almost nobody gives it any consideration because somehow a big part of the aoe community is convinced all glitch exploits are terrible and that those are per definition cheating. One should at least wonder if it's a good gameplay mechanic, and I definitely think both have positive sides to it. For example, a reasonable position could also be that we only condone this trick on explorers.


machine gun iro explorer vs everything, that will be fun to meet on qs in the next weeks...

I can see how this is too strong, that's a decent argument too. But can't we just discuss it normally? You're acting as if I randomly want a feature that's terrible for the game. I didn't really realize the "machine gun iro explorer".

I wonder though, how insane is this? How fast can you do this without using macros? If I try to envision it, I feel like you'd maybe half the reload time or something, and I also feel like it wouldn't even be worth the apm in a battle with more than 5 units.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


machine gun iro explorer vs everything, that will be fun to meet on qs in the next weeks...

I can see how this is too strong, that's a decent argument too. But can't we just discuss it normally? You're acting as if I randomly want a feature that's terrible for the game. I didn't really realize the "machine gun iro explorer".

I wonder though, how insane is this? How fast can you do this without using macros? If I try to envision it, I feel like you'd maybe half the reload time or something, and I also feel like it wouldn't even be worth the apm in a battle with more than 5 units.

It indeed would not.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

Of course not in big battles (even crackshot often not worth the risk of putting WC in front) but it is worth it defending a TP vs pikes or even just again 5-10 muskets running in base. Iro WC already has the crackshot and overpar stats, really not the case to bring its power to the next level because "hey it takes skills". For the record I tried this myself as soon as the tricke became popular and it is indeed funny. Even the animation is funny. Just the result of that is dumb and makes the game more dumb.
Discussing this stuff means giving credits to your arguments as if they're anywhere close to the same level of the cons of allowing this glitch/bug abuse, especially in the case of explorer revival.
So lemmings is totally right when he just cut it short.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Post by edeholland »

Could you or somebody else provide a clip where you can see it in action? How many shots/sec can you actually make? How micro-intensive and hard is it really?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

Well just be sure to have hotkeys for the special abilities and then try yourself in the scenario editor. It is basically machine gun monitor and double rof for explorers. With iro dude it is better because you can still use convert and rely on the other ability instead for the trick.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

edeholland wrote:Could you or somebody else provide a clip where you can see it in action? How many shots/sec can you actually make? How micro-intensive and hard is it really?

It's a vid of a recorded game so you can see how fast it shoots.

https://www.solidfiles.com/v/Rj2rNkQegxXXB

I don't think it is possible to be faster because I did that offline ie no lag, and in real game the lag is really a struggle and doesn't allow you to be fast.
I think you shoot about 2x faster.
You need to click on the guardian with the crackshot, press the hotkey "stop", and it resumes your range attack.
It's hard to do for the following reasons:
1) You need to be fast on the hotkeys
2) With lag, you're going to be too fast for eso and your explorer actually will keep using his crackshot and you'll waste it.
3) The guardians are moving and if you missclick it becomes worse than going out of range to shoot.

Online with average lag, I'd say I can do it 2 times out of 3
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Well just be sure to have hotkeys for the special abilities and then try yourself in the scenario editor. It is basically machine gun monitor and double rof for explorers. With iro dude it is better because you can still use convert and rely on the other ability instead for the trick.

It's not because it is uneffective in hand combat so once you've used your convert ability you can't do it.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by lemmings121 »

Garja wrote:So lemmings is totally right when he just cut it short.

damm garja you agreed with me in something. :flowers:

not sure if I should just change my opinion on the subject, just to make things normal again :hmm:
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:[It's not because it is uneffective in hand combat so once you've used your convert ability you can't do it.

? lol
Maybe you already have a converted guardian to use as tank? Or simply convert and run away then re-engage?
Besides I was talking against normal units. And that's another difference with the WC dude because you don't need treasures to do the trick.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Alohomora »

I don't think the monitor thing is a good comparison. The hero thing is like this: using the animation of special ability(crackshot) to cancel the animation of normal attack, which fires rapidly then; The monitor thing you guys are referring to is that monitor can bombard the opponent's base in 20s, but that is using the special ability, not its normal attack firing fast (which usually don't have that much range). Feel free to correct me :)
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

Monitor special ability is used exclusively to reset the ROF of the normal attack, just like the crackshot for explorers.
It works with any unit and its special attack as long as you can cancel it.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Mitoe »

Darn, was really hoping people wouldn't find out about the monitor thing, but I guess it was only a matter of time after the ROF-reset with the explorer crackshot became common knowledge.

Anyway, it's definitely a bug, and even though it does take some skill to abuse it I don't really feel like it has any place in competitive play. It's very gimmicky, especially in lag. It might be different it was a LAN environment, or if there were some other limitations to the mechanic, but as it is right now... no thanks.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Alohomora »

mitoe can you kindly provide a recorded game or video of monitor thing :)
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by musketeer925 »

EAGLEMUT wrote:Interesting thing about this glitch is that it's been abused by just about everyone since the beginning of time. Cancelling reload animation to use crackshot is like the most standard way to take treasures, except players did not realize for a long time that it can be repeated infinitely. Using it for this purpose or by a mistake is what makes banning it a bit of a grey area that needs to be clearly outlined I think.

The grey area here I think is pretty easy to differentiate: it is legit if you actually allow the crackshot/ability to complete. Cancelling the ability is what makes it an exploit, because then you can immediately continue shooting, indefinitely.

I unfortunately don't think it would be possible to make an action uncancellable or have some delay. Can anyone come up with an example of an in-game action that you can tell a unit to do and then *not* cancel (e.g., by trying to move the unit, etc) once it has started?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

musketeer925 wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:Interesting thing about this glitch is that it's been abused by just about everyone since the beginning of time. Cancelling reload animation to use crackshot is like the most standard way to take treasures, except players did not realize for a long time that it can be repeated infinitely. Using it for this purpose or by a mistake is what makes banning it a bit of a grey area that needs to be clearly outlined I think.

The grey area here I think is pretty easy to differentiate: it is legit if you actually allow the crackshot/ability to complete. Cancelling the ability is what makes it an exploit, because then you can immediately continue shooting, indefinitely.

I unfortunately don't think it would be possible to make an action uncancellable or have some delay. Can anyone come up with an example of an in-game action that you can tell a unit to do and then *not* cancel (e.g., by trying to move the unit, etc) once it has started?

Stance switching actually seemingly has some delay in some sense. Its not the same but maybe theres something there to be used.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by EAGLEMUT »

musketeer925 wrote:The grey area here I think is pretty easy to differentiate: it is legit if you actually allow the crackshot/ability to complete. Cancelling the ability is what makes it an exploit, because then you can immediately continue shooting, indefinitely.
Cancelling the ability during treasure contention to confuse your opponent is also a common thing though. Is that not legit, then?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

Cancelling ability is not an exploit, I'm pretty sure that's just a somewhat intended game mechanic. The problem really is only when it used heavily to do extra damage. Treasure gathering related use is not even heavy abuse since the benefit is marginal.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:Darn, was really hoping people wouldn't find out about the monitor thing, but I guess it was only a matter of time after the ROF-reset with the explorer crackshot became common knowledge.

Anyway, it's definitely a bug, and even though it does take some skill to abuse it I don't really feel like it has any place in competitive play. It's very gimmicky, especially in lag. It might be different it was a LAN environment, or if there were some other limitations to the mechanic, but as it is right now... no thanks.


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