explorer fast shooting

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Italy Garja
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:
Garja wrote:You keep making shit comparisons. How is using Iro the same? RE Iro doesn't necessarily make for dumb games, it makes for unfair ones. Dumb is two explorerers going down and then up 5 secs after that or even instantly just to try to steal stuff. Same dumbness is continuosly reviving iro explorers while in opponent base because it gives aura boost despite getting knocked down every time. It not necessarily better for one side, it is just dumb. Same thing with enabling monstertruck or shit like that.

You give decent arguments as to why alt d is not good for gameplay. The only step that's necessary is for you to admit that the only reason alt d should be considered a cheat is because it has a negative effect on gameplay. In other words, it'd be nice if you didn't insist that any bug is a cheat because it is a bug - this statement has already been proven wrong in this thread.

And then, if you admit that, I'd also be interested in your arguments as to why the explorer fast shooting trick is bad for gameplay. That'd mean your arguments shouldn't be "bugs are cheats", "I am garja and therefore what I say is a fact" and "your IQ is lower than 100" because those aren't actually arguments.

Not any bug but any bug exploit is a cheat. And in the case of alt-d is blatant. Its whole functioning is based on formation stances. It's the stupidness itself that makes it a cheat in this case, before anything else.
Honestly I stand by my definition. I would also consider exploiting the shogunate bug a way of cheating. Definitely it was cheating when some malicious jap player knew about it whereas the majority didn't yet. No wonder jap FI was so good.
About crackshoot I explained it extensively in one of these topics (your guys fault for doubling them). And I think it was my first post in that thread.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Oh and by the way, in starcraft 2:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-str ... tkey-trick
=> Rapid fire, and yes it is allowed in tournaments and used by every korean
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

What is 'your definition' then? It's a cheat if you think it's stupid?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hidddy_ wrote:Its a cheat/exploit bc it wasn't intended upon programming.
Pull trick, guardians being confined to a radius around the treasure, those were programmed into the game.
Doesn't matter if/how it changes the game, bc it was not intended to be in the game.

It is the same reason why wall macros(or macros of any sort), transparent uis with market trade, and moesbar are not allowed. They are not intended to be in the game.

@momuuu it does not take a dissertation to understand this.

Wall macros (and macros of any sort) and transparent uis with market trade are allowed in tournaments, even though they're not intended to be in the game.

Macros are not allowed. If by any chance someone is reported with that with solid proof he can be disqualified.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hidddy_ wrote:Its a cheat/exploit bc it wasn't intended upon programming.
Pull trick, guardians being confined to a radius around the treasure, those were programmed into the game.
Doesn't matter if/how it changes the game, bc it was not intended to be in the game.

It is the same reason why wall macros(or macros of any sort), transparent uis with market trade, and moesbar are not allowed. They are not intended to be in the game.

@momuuu it does not take a dissertation to understand this.

Wall macros (and macros of any sort) and transparent uis with market trade are allowed in tournaments, even though they're not intended to be in the game.

Macros are not allowed. If by any chance someone is reported with that with solid proof he can be disqualified.

No, that's just wrong lol. We all know some players use macro in tournaments, and that's totally fine.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Hidddy_ »

@momuuu jeez you are thick. Comparing games with active support to a game with inactive support to prove your cause. If aoe3 was still supported you can bet this glitch would be patched, but w.e. you are here arguing about sc2 and shit.

Do you even read the stuff you quote? "However, glitches that break the game or otherwise cause matches to become unplayable for any party, such as by freezing opposing characters or making the user invincible, are universally banned from being used in tournaments"
Breaks the game and makes explorers close to unbeatable in some scenarios. I'm done here. Good day
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hidddy_ wrote:@momuuu jeez you are thick. Comparing games with active support to a game with inactive support to prove your cause. If aoe3 was still supported you can bet this glitch would be patched, but w.e. you are here arguing about sc2 and shit.

The point is that since there's no support, it's up to us to regulate it. Thus the discussion, and what Jerom is trying to prove is that it makes sense not to ban it.

Do you even read the stuff you quote? "However, glitches that break the game or otherwise cause matches to become unplayable for any party, such as by freezing opposing characters or making the user invincible, are universally banned from being used in tournaments"
Breaks the game and makes explorers close to unbeatable in some scenarios. I'm done here. Good day
I understand that the thread is so long you don't want to read the previous posts, but I'm quite sure I proved at least 2 times that it can't be abused to the point it is game breaking, because you can't get more than 1/1.5 ROF with your explorer. "close to unbeatable", no I don't think so :P

It is exhausting to repeat the same thing again and again...
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:No, that's just wrong lol. We all know some players use macro in tournaments, and that's totally fine.

The only reason why they are not punished is because there is no proof they use them and because none so far has reported them.
Macros are not allowed and that's in the rules already.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:What is 'your definition' then? It's a cheat if you think it's stupid?

Cheating is, in this case, exploting a very stupid and blatant bug. The bug alters the intended dynamic of the game (ransom or resque the explorer). Then you can argue whether it gives an unfair advantage or not which in this specific case is totally secondary, yet still possible.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Hidddy_ »

@Diarouga well i didn't read your posts on that so idk what process you did. But the scenarios I was referring to were age 1 treasuring scenarios. It completely changes that dynamic/balance. Of course it doesn't affect much later on when there are 100 other things to micro.

And of course its up to to us at this point to manage the game and define what is cheating and what is not. But there are reasons why you're not the one making these decisions, and neither am I.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

Hidddy_ wrote:@momuuu jeez you are thick. Comparing games with active support to a game with inactive support to prove your cause. If aoe3 was still supported you can bet this glitch would be patched, but w.e. you are here arguing about sc2 and shit.

Do you even read the stuff you quote? "However, glitches that break the game or otherwise cause matches to become unplayable for any party, such as by freezing opposing characters or making the user invincible, are universally banned from being used in tournaments"
Breaks the game and makes explorers close to unbeatable in some scenarios. I'm done here. Good day

Ssbm, broodwar are not actively supported, aoe2 is supported but not to the extend where these sort of bugs are being fixed. In sc2 there is support, and that clearly shows that even the developers can think bugs are features that improve gameplay.
Freezing opponents or becoming permanently invincible in super smash means gameplay basically comes to a halt. In that sense it breaks the game. Explorers having increased dps is uncomparable to this. Hell, in super smash ice climber chain grab has been allowed in tournaments, and this is basically an unstoppable KO combo if pulled off correctly. Again, in an unsupported game.

EDIT: For the record, there was only one link referring to a currently supported game. The rest were unsupported games that no longer receive (big) patches. Did you even click the links?

EDIT2: video of ice climber chain grab that is obviously ridiculous yet allowed because its skillful: https://youtu.be/5nEtaLvyqz8?t=6m11s
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by chris1089 »

In response to your earlier post:

“In almost all gaming communities, even aoe3's gaming community, tricks/exploits/bugs that have slightly odd behaviour are tolerated or even considered cool.”


So yes, not all bugs (whatever you want to call them I’m just going to use the single label bug) are cheats. However, this one undermines the rate of fire. I am saying this is so fundamental to the game – every military unit was designed with a set rate of fire as far as I am aware – that this shouldn’t change through the use of a bug.

“Just because Tit can use this trick actually does mean Kaiser can use the trick too. There's nothing unfair in the nature of the trick, its available to both players.”

Ok, my example might have been bad. However I stand by my point – two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because I can steal your phone when you steal my phone (assuming we are adept thieves) doesn’t make stealing ok. Just because both players can alt-d (which I consider obvious glitch abuse) doesn’t make it right.

In response to your third point I concede that a macro may not be able to be made. I also concede that, although this may have serious impact on how age 1 is played, this may not necessarily be bad. However my first point as to why it should be considered a cheat still stands.

"you counter my arguments claiming that this shouldn't necessarily be considered a cheat by saying it's a cheat."

I hope my argument is more logical now.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

So yes, not all bugs (whatever you want to call them I’m just going to use the single label bug) are cheats. However, this one undermines the rate of fire. I am saying this is so fundamental to the game – every military unit was designed with a set rate of fire as far as I am aware – that this shouldn’t change through the use of a bug.

I feel like it's the 30th time I say it, but what about the pull trick which changes unit speed?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by chris1089 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
So yes, not all bugs (whatever you want to call them I’m just going to use the single label bug) are cheats. However, this one undermines the rate of fire. I am saying this is so fundamental to the game – every military unit was designed with a set rate of fire as far as I am aware – that this shouldn’t change through the use of a bug.

I feel like it's the 30th time I say it, but what about the pull trick which changes unit speed?


I feel like Kaiser's said it 3 times - I'll say it again. The designers made it so that units have a max speed and normal speed. They didn't make it so that units have a normal rate of fire and a max rate of fire where you use a bug to utilize it.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

I don't see how increasing dps of a unit by a trick necessarily defines it as cheating? There are many examples of extremely strong or beneficial bugs that are tolerated. For example, theres a trick in sc2 that allows medivacs to heal units while unloading. If you do not use the trick medivacs cant actually heal units while unloading. It's clearly not intended, but the developers seemed to like the trick and thus allow it. Similairly, a worker which has been given a normal move command cannot pass through units as intended. If you command it to mine minerals, it can however. Clearly not intended, yet allowed and considered a cool trick. So is this a cheat? I mean, aren't treasure guardians supposed to reset if they can't attack you because you're out of their pull range? Yet treasure creeping is commonly used. Aren't units supposed to move at their normal speed? Pull trick is used everywhere. Aren't you supposed to not be able to see through the fog of war? In aoe2 pallisade scouting is very common. Don't all 'tricks' do something that's beneficial beyond the normal behaviour? Whether that's increasing rof, movement, scouting abilities or other things, isn't that the entire idea of tricks? Why are tricks necessarily cheating then? I don't really see how this trick is of some nature that it cannot be allowed. If it's good for gameplay it should be allowed, if it's bad for gameplay it shouldn't be. Discussing the semantics of what the game is supposed to be like seems pointless. Discussing if it's potentially an improvement to gameplay seems fruitful. But even if you would think there's some standard for when bugs are cheats, then the evidence provided from other games strongly suggests that this doesn't belong to the cheating realm - at least not unless someone comes up with an extreme way to exploit this and break the game with it.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chris1089 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
So yes, not all bugs (whatever you want to call them I’m just going to use the single label bug) are cheats. However, this one undermines the rate of fire. I am saying this is so fundamental to the game – every military unit was designed with a set rate of fire as far as I am aware – that this shouldn’t change through the use of a bug.

I feel like it's the 30th time I say it, but what about the pull trick which changes unit speed?


I feel like Kaiser's said it 3 times - I'll say it again. The designers made it so that units have a max speed and normal speed. They didn't make it so that units have a normal rate of fire and a max rate of fire where you use a bug to utilize it.

The designer did that because they wanted to add fluency in the game, they didn't want people to increase the speed of their units.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by deleted_user0 »

imo the designers just made it so u can spawn monstertrucks and have really good games. not musket vs lb bs.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
chris1089 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


I feel like Kaiser's said it 3 times - I'll say it again. The designers made it so that units have a max speed and normal speed. They didn't make it so that units have a normal rate of fire and a max rate of fire where you use a bug to utilize it.

The designer did that because they wanted to add fluency in the game, they didn't want people to increase the speed of their units.

It is an intended mechanic, specifically defined for all units in the game. Arguing that pull trick is "cheat" is on the same level as saying vill garrison moving is cheat.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Macros are not allowed. If by any chance someone is reported with that with solid proof he can be disqualified.

No, that's just wrong lol. We all know some players use macro in tournaments, and that's totally fine.

There's already some detection of macros in the anti-cheat and plans to make it detect more. Macros that automate gameplay beyond what's intended (executing multiple commands using one click/button) are generally disallowed in any sort of game.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

@momuuu
I'm pretty sure broodwar is supported (they even made an HD version of it iirc) and with the return of Flahs it is actually still bigger than sc2 in Korea.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:@momuuu
I'm pretty sure broodwar is supported (they even made an HD version of it iirc) and with the return of Flahs it is actually still bigger than sc2 in Korea.

EDIT: actually there were minor bug fixes although from 2009 to 2017 it didn't receive any support.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

Also I just read about the medivac bug. That post is from 2011, are you sure they didn't fix it since then?
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Also I just read about the medivac bug. That post is from 2011, are you sure they didn't fix it since then?

yes
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Dont bother garja, its like talking to a wall
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Mosx »

What I should do to using crackshot on treasure guardians to cancel explorer shooting
op mechanics, op build order :export: :coin: :ugly: :uglylol: :maniac:

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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Press control + w between each explorer shot animation

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