explorer fast shooting

Australia Hazza54321
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Hazza54321 »

envoys can sprint :O, to about same speed as hero
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by gibson »

deleted_user wrote:
momuuu wrote:I don't get why some of you are acting as if you're taking moral high ground here. In many games bugs appear, and the normal stance is that you are allowed to use it unless a statement by the developers is made or more commonly until it is patched out. There are many instances where bugs end up being considered interesting gameplay features, and the people of that community aren't instantly calling it cheating.

For example, just have a look at this: https://youtu.be/rWvoMrYCQBU?t=10m36s
Or consider this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-str ... ivac-drops
Which ends up still being in the game 7 years later.

We don't have a developer or anything, so it becomes less clear what's allowed and not. That doesn't mean that anything should clearly be disallowed if it's not functioning exactly like intended. I've always thought alt-d is not a terrible game mechanic, and I don't think this rof trick is a bad aspect of the game: it requires skill to pull off and anyone can do it.

The bottom line is that all of those people claiming it's obvious and mandatory to consider any usage of a seemingly unintended feature cheating are simply oblivious to the truth. And this isn't just in starcraft games, I think there's also cases where this happens in games like dota, super smash, overwatch etc.
Are you taking the moral high ground by saying others are taking the moral high ground in a thread about an unintended gameplay mechanic (i.e. nothing really moral about it)? :hmm:
stop you’re being overly pc
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

EAGLEMUT wrote:Well, it is clearly abuse of a glitch in the game, your explorers/warchiefs/monitors/whatever are meant to have a reload time, not obliterate everything around them in a matter of seconds when you have high APM.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:My point of view:
Eventhough some will say it's cheating, anyone can use this glitch and it's not game breaking and requires some skill. Thus, to me it's just like the no pillar walls, or using units to run with other units and totally legit, so I use it in my games, however ESOC thinks it's cheating and doesn't allow it in tourneys.


Depends on the definition of game-breaking, but I think it could be argued having godmode explorers and monitors is game-breaking. I would say it's at least worse than alt-d, as this has essentially no downside as long as you have the APM to execute it.
Interesting thing about this glitch is that it's been abused by just about everyone since the beginning of time. Cancelling reload animation to use crackshot is like the most standard way to take treasures, except players did not realize for a long time that it can be repeated infinitely. Using it for this purpose or by a mistake is what makes banning it a bit of a grey area that needs to be clearly outlined I think.

Thus, to me it's just like the no pillar walls

Are you referring to defining a special hotkey which instantly deletes all pillars without selecting them? I think that's basically considered to automate gameplay on par with "unit trainers" that automatically make the right units for you without selecting anything. This pillar hotkey "cheat" should probably just get added to EP anti-cheat detection.
If you're referring to regularly deleting pillars, I don't consider that a cheat/glitch. It's essentially just smart building placement.

using units to run with other units

This is a defined game mechanic, each unit even has a set maximum running speed. Definitely not a glitch in my book.

momuuu wrote:I don't think this rof trick is a bad aspect of the game: it requires skill to pull off and anyone can do it.

I wanna see whether you maintain this view after someone bombs 100% of your buildings to the ground in 30 seconds using monitors with no reload on Great Lakes.

I agree that the monitor glitch is broken, and should definitely be banned. However, it makes no sense to me to allow people to go out of range of treasure guardians in order to kill them without taking damage, while banning this, as it is a lot less impactful on the game (it basically allows you to shoot 2 more times before you get hit), and a lot harder to execute.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Hazza54321 »

Using it to attack an enemy hero is fking stupid though, at least doing it on guardians doesnt affect your opponent
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by EAGLEMUT »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree that the monitor glitch is broken, and should definitely be banned. However, it makes no sense to me to allow people to go out of range of treasure guardians in order to kill them without taking damage, while banning this, as it is a lot less impactful on the game (it basically allows you to shoot 2 more times before you get hit), and a lot harder to execute.

Well, if you combine both, you might be able to kill polar bears with minimal or no damage taken. In team games it's potentially even more abusable as one player can simply tank while others pull out their machine guns. Killing treasure guardians more easily is not the only issue here, though. The glitch can also be abused to kill units of your opponent as long as you're near a treasure (or, with the iro WC, even when you're not near a treasure). Explorers gunning down muskets seems kinda lame.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree that the monitor glitch is broken, and should definitely be banned. However, it makes no sense to me to allow people to go out of range of treasure guardians in order to kill them without taking damage, while banning this, as it is a lot less impactful on the game (it basically allows you to shoot 2 more times before you get hit), and a lot harder to execute.

Well, if you combine both, you might be able to kill polar bears with minimal or no damage taken. In team games it's potentially even more abusable as one player can simply tank while others pull out their machine guns. Killing treasure guardians more easily is not the only issue here, though. The glitch can also be abused to kill units of your opponent as long as you're near a treasure (or, with the iro WC, even when you're not near a treasure). Explorers gunning down muskets seems kinda lame.

Well, against opponent units it can be abused, but my point was that against treasure guardians it's not a big deal. It's just part of the treasure micro imo.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

I would think the main problem with is is that you could potentially create a macro to do this way too efficiently. I just oppose the attitude that any glitch is per definition bad. For example, I personally actually see some gameplay value in alt-d too. It's pretty high risk, as you could end up simply donating 45 xp to your opponent. You can't actually use it to continue scouting well or to get treasures, in reality it's only useful to get up a trading post in transition. Is that even a bad thing? Theres risk to it and you also will have a handicapped explorer when it comes to scouting, while honestly I've always considered the punishment of losing your explorer (which can happen if you get unlucky), which is not being able to get a TP up, extremely severe. So it's not even obvious that alt-d usage like that is necessarily terrible gameplay.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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momuuu wrote:I personally actually see some gameplay value in alt-d too. It's pretty high risk, as you could end up simply donating 45 xp to your opponent. You can't actually use it to continue scouting well or to get treasures, in reality it's only useful to get up a trading post in transition. Is that even a bad thing? Theres risk to it and you also will have a handicapped explorer when it comes to scouting, while honestly I've always considered the punishment of losing your explorer (which can happen if you get unlucky), which is not being able to get a TP up, extremely severe. So it's not even obvious that alt-d usage like that is necessarily terrible gameplay.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:I would think the main problem with is is that you could potentially create a macro to do this way too efficiently.

You can, but then it's cheating/

I just oppose the attitude that any glitch is per definition bad. For example, I personally actually see some gameplay value in alt-d too. It's pretty high risk, as you could end up simply donating 45 xp to your opponent. You can't actually use it to continue scouting well or to get treasures, in reality it's only useful to get up a trading post in transition. Is that even a bad thing? Theres risk to it and you also will have a handicapped explorer when it comes to scouting, while honestly I've always considered the punishment of losing your explorer (which can happen if you get unlucky), which is not being able to get a TP up, extremely severe. So it's not even obvious that alt-d usage like that is necessarily terrible gameplay.

Yes, and the only reason I don't use alt-d is because there's been an agreement for years not to do that. It was decided before I started to play the game, so I respect that. I have to respect that anyway, else people get super mad.
As for the treasure thing, I think it is an interesting mechanic, and I'm going to use it when I play regardless of people's opinions. They're aware that I'm going to use it, and they can (and should) use it.

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Re: explorer fast shooting

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It's objectively terrible gameplay. Aside from taking away from actually caring about your explorer, imagine using it repeatedly during a battle just to screw opponent pathing. I mean people complain of Aztec WC revival glitch while you could that 2x faster with alt-d. Then also imagine two explorers in age1 with basically zero hp who just shoot at themselves over and over. I mean it just opens up for super dumb unintended scenarios.
I agree not every glitch is bad per se but most of times its abuse pretty much screws the game.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Garja wrote:It's objectively terrible gameplay. Aside from taking away from actually caring about your explorer, imagine using it repeatedly during a battle just to screw opponent pathing. I mean people complain of Aztec WC revival glitch while you could that 2x faster with alt-d.

You could 2x faster with alt d but with 1000x less HP. Consider it.

Then also imagine two explorers in age1 with basically zero hp who just shoot at themselves over and over. I mean it just opens up for super dumb unintended scenarios.
I agree not every glitch is bad per se but most of times its abuse pretty much screws the game.

Why would 2 explorers die at the exact same time? It makes 0 sense.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

Hp doesn't matter for screwing up opponent unit pathing, which is the main problem of Aztec WC glitch honestly. Like those HP tanking are worse than attack dance most of times.
One exploreres die, the other keeps getting treasures until he also die (why wouldnt you use your full hp stack if you can revive infinitely) then 2 explorers roam on the map with like 0 HP and who shoots first wins. Then the scenarios repeats over and over. It would be incredibly ridicolous on top of other things.
I mean, seriously if you guys can't see how wrong that is, there is no point in even dicussing. I'd say you just lack game sense and instead just make it a practical balance point, which is only half of the issue. And even there it's pretty unbalanced.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:It's objectively terrible gameplay. Aside from taking away from actually caring about your explorer, imagine using it repeatedly during a battle just to screw opponent pathing. I mean people complain of Aztec WC revival glitch while you could that 2x faster with alt-d. Then also imagine two explorers in age1 with basically zero hp who just shoot at themselves over and over. I mean it just opens up for super dumb unintended scenarios.
I agree not every glitch is bad per se but most of times its abuse pretty much screws the game.

Garja, you literally don't know what the word "objectively" means.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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When it comes to this game, objectively pretty much means what I think. In general, it's more about being generally accepted as such and coincidentially that definition still works for this game.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by gibson »

Garja wrote:When it comes to this game, objectively pretty much means what I think.
And this is why no one takes you seriously anymore, "Objectively is what I think". That's the most arrogant thing I've ever heard and shows why your skill level has plateaued.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by EAGLEMUT »

I see the macro potential as another real issue. It's going to be hard to prove whether a player had high APM or simply "outplayed" by using a macro.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by deleted_user »

It's very possible to read Garja's response and interpret it as "objectively means what I think [it means]: <definition of objectively in this context>"

At least that's what I got out of it. In the matter of opinions it is probably impossible to reach true objectivity, so a definition is a handy thing to provide.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by gibson »

deleted_user wrote:It's very possible to read Garja's response and interpret it as "objectively means what I think [it means]: <definition of objectively>"
If that's the case I apologize for my insult
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by Garja »

gibson wrote:
Garja wrote:When it comes to this game, objectively pretty much means what I think.
And this is why no one takes you seriously anymore, "Objectively is what I think". That's the most arrogant thing I've ever heard and shows why your skill level has plateaued.

If you think I care you didn't pay attention.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:When it comes to this game, objectively pretty much means what I think. In general, it's more about being generally accepted as such and coincidentially that definition still works for this game.

:love: :love: :love:
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

EAGLEMUT wrote:I see the macro potential as another real issue. It's going to be hard to prove whether a player had high APM or simply "outplayed" by using a macro.

Yes that's another issue.
Anyway, my point is that it's not "objectively cheating", and if ESOC wants to consider it as a cheat, they can do so. To me it's not a cheat so it's fine for me to use it as long as it is not in an ESOC tourney.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

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Post by deleted_user »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:I see the macro potential as another real issue. It's going to be hard to prove whether a player had high APM or simply "outplayed" by using a macro.

Yes that's another issue.
Anyway, my point is that it's not "objectively cheating", and if ESOC wants to consider it as a cheat, they can do so. To me it's not a cheat so it's fine for me to use it as long as it is not in an ESOC tourney.

That's what it really all comes down to. It's a matter of opinion and gentleman agreements for casual play and a matter for ESOC to decide for competitive play. I personally won't play with any players who do this, I think it's exploitative. This is understanding.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:When it comes to this game, objectively pretty much means what I think. In general, it's more about being generally accepted as such and coincidentially that definition still works for this game.

I rest my case.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by lordraphael »

momuuu wrote:I would think the main problem with is is that you could potentially create a macro to do this way too efficiently. I just oppose the attitude that any glitch is per definition bad. For example, I personally actually see some gameplay value in alt-d too. It's pretty high risk, as you could end up simply donating 45 xp to your opponent. You can't actually use it to continue scouting well or to get treasures, in reality it's only useful to get up a trading post in transition. Is that even a bad thing? Theres risk to it and you also will have a handicapped explorer when it comes to scouting, while honestly I've always considered the punishment of losing your explorer (which can happen if you get unlucky), which is not being able to get a TP up, extremely severe. So it's not even obvious that alt-d usage like that is necessarily terrible gameplay.

alt d is just stupid. And Its is very obviously a bug and not a glitch. The explorer rapid fire vs guardians could be considered a glitch, something that is in the game due to the game mechanics, ( i remember that in sc2 there used to be a similar case and people discussed if it is a legit game feature or should be removed (in the blizzard removed it ), while alt d is just straight up a bug that has nothing to do with any mechanics of the game. Besides alt D is absolutly broken for some civs.
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Re: explorer fast shooting

Post by momuuu »

I absolute despise that attitude. "it wasn't meant to be in the game so it is objectively bad". That argument is straight up bullshit. The other argument, that it's broken for some civs, does hold some value (thinking about Japan specifically). It's just sad that people can't even maturely discuss something like this.

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