Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
- edeholland
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
Please stop insulting people.
- QueenOfdestiny
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
edeholland wrote:Please stop insulting people.
Then please stop pushing me.
shit juice
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
gibson wrote:Bo1 is good cause it's more likely to allow for upsets, as we saw
Yes. But for some people that's reason to actually get upset
- princeofcarthage
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
queenofdestiny wrote:1) The seeding was wrong.
We explained to you what the problem was and why we had to select the solution/decision we made and steps taken to ensure it doesn't happen in future. If you don't want to go with details in public (which we appreciate) then you probably shouldn't post it in public, since admins already know and have your feedback about the same.
2) Kaiser and Me could have casted. (but no one asked for it only if Kaiser wants to Cocast)
I asked many times, first time it was for co-casting and then for main casting in the casting channel, even mitoe asked, I personally pm'd many casters if they want too, we never received your reply.
3) The organization of the stream was terrible.
Would you please explain this in more detail?
4) The rest was fine. I like bo1 but like the higher player pick first maybe or there is a veto.
My replies in bold, thank you!
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
My thoughts.
I like this format. I think it should be max 32 participants. RO32, RO16, RO8 bo1 on saturday. Semifinals bo3 and finals bo5 on sunday.
Map pool should be small (max 7 maps) and diversified (ideally one map of every type, perhaps excluding the most extreme ones e.g. indonesia).
For streaming, highlight few matches for RO32,RO16 and RO8. Stream all semifinals and finals.
Do this 4 times per season (2-3 season per year depending on funds and admin disponibility), substituing big open tourneys.
Meanwhile organize side tourneys for those excluded from best 32 seedings that work as qualifiers (top 2-4 finishers get seeded on main event).
Ideally main event+qualifier should be done once a month for a total of 8-12 cycles (8 sounds more reasonable).
Seedings should be based on ESOC ladder (ideally EP) which resets every month or just considering last 30 days activity (if possible).
If everything is done correctly this should be more entertaining and more a efficient use of both esoc money and people time.
I like this format. I think it should be max 32 participants. RO32, RO16, RO8 bo1 on saturday. Semifinals bo3 and finals bo5 on sunday.
Map pool should be small (max 7 maps) and diversified (ideally one map of every type, perhaps excluding the most extreme ones e.g. indonesia).
For streaming, highlight few matches for RO32,RO16 and RO8. Stream all semifinals and finals.
Do this 4 times per season (2-3 season per year depending on funds and admin disponibility), substituing big open tourneys.
Meanwhile organize side tourneys for those excluded from best 32 seedings that work as qualifiers (top 2-4 finishers get seeded on main event).
Ideally main event+qualifier should be done once a month for a total of 8-12 cycles (8 sounds more reasonable).
Seedings should be based on ESOC ladder (ideally EP) which resets every month or just considering last 30 days activity (if possible).
If everything is done correctly this should be more entertaining and more a efficient use of both esoc money and people time.
- princeofkabul
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
G why not participate?
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
I've also enjoyed the casual format, BO1 makes room for upsets and also doesn't consume too much time - of course it adds a certain randomness to matches but losing a game to a (usually) slightly lower opponent because of daily form or misfortune is just normal so I don't see any problems with it being used in tourneys.
- QueenOfdestiny
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
princeofcarthage wrote:queenofdestiny wrote:1) The seeding was wrong.
We explained to you what the problem was and why we had to select the solution/decision we made and steps taken to ensure it doesn't happen in future. If you don't want to go with details in public (which we appreciate) then you probably shouldn't post it in public, since admins already know and have your feedback about the same.
2) Kaiser and Me could have casted. (but no one asked for it only if Kaiser wants to Cocast)
I asked many times, first time it was for co-casting and then for main casting in the casting channel, even mitoe asked, I personally pm'd many casters if they want too, we never received your reply.
3) The organization of the stream was terrible.
Would you please explain this in more detail?
4) The rest was fine. I like bo1 but like the higher player pick first maybe or there is a veto.
My replies in bold, thank you!
I think the puplic should know about it to point 1.
Like you said it would have affected a lot of games.
To the casting...
After this, there cam nothing anymore so we thought its fine.
As Kaiserklein said already in the discord the overlay was also imo not so nice.
Then there was lag it seemed like for the players.
The start of the finals... idk how to say but no one said something at the start and no one knows it was a lag test.
shit juice
- princeofcarthage
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
1) Yes Kaiser clearly said you can't cast cuz you both were playing, it would have been messy if you would just cast 1 game and then others have to cast. That lacks uniformity and would have been confusing for viewers, players, and admins. I am sorry but you can't expect me to message you every time asking if you want to cast, many players who wanted to cast messaged me and all were given chance. If you remember it was chrisie and radix who started casting the tournament, after that I had no one who asked me to be a main caster. It was your stuff to figure out how you would cast together and simultaneously play in the series and then reach out to us with a schedule.
2) Regarding overlay it's everyone's personal opinion and I respect yours that you didn't like it.
3) Yeah finals starting was bit messy and that would definitely be improved upon!
2) Regarding overlay it's everyone's personal opinion and I respect yours that you didn't like it.
3) Yeah finals starting was bit messy and that would definitely be improved upon!
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- QueenOfdestiny
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
princeofcarthage wrote:1) Yes Kaiser clearly said you can't cast cuz you both were playing, it would have been messy if you would just cast 1 game and then others have to cast. That lacks uniformity and would have been confusing for viewers, players, and admins. I am sorry but you can't expect me to message you every time asking if you want to cast, many players who wanted to cast messaged me and all were given chance. If you remember it was chrisie and radix who started casting the tournament, after that I had no one who asked me to be a main caster. It was your stuff to figure out how you would cast together and simultaneously play in the series and then reach out to us with a schedule.
I am just a caster and it's not up to me to orga who streams when and how to do it and wich games etc. Idk everything what kaiser says. But there would have been a solution for sure.
But this is your oppinion and i wish you good luck to find casters with this.
I respect also your oppinion and just said what i wanted to say thats all.
And im sorry that i said stupid in this was.. it was more like a "stupid" mistake what shouldnt happen.
I really appreciate the work what you guys do, since i know how much work it is to orga a tournament.
shit juice
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
Yes and we tried organizing streams, but if you don't tell us at what time you can cast, then how are we suppose to include you in schedule? Tournament timings were out from first day, you could've said I and Kaiser can cast from 18 gmt to 19 gmt. But the only reply I ever got was, I and queen need to cast together, so we will see.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
One suggestion maybe to the media team is to make an ESOC2 streaming account. Of course it won't have the followers of the main account already in use but people often find the stream by coming to the forums or by seeing who is streaming under the AOE3 section of twitch. This would allow for someone else to pick up a cast of a 2nd match if necessary without having to turn on and off the main stream each time.
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- sebnan12
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
thanks for organizing such an event guys! thanks i appreciate it! and will try to participate in all the following events aswell :)
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
Didntsee this thread now i made my own one
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
princeofcarthage wrote:1) Yes Kaiser clearly said you can't cast cuz you both were playing, it would have been messy if you would just cast 1 game and then others have to cast. That lacks uniformity and would have been confusing for viewers, players, and admins. I am sorry but you can't expect me to message you every time asking if you want to cast, many players who wanted to cast messaged me and all were given chance. If you remember it was chrisie and radix who started casting the tournament, after that I had no one who asked me to be a main caster. It was your stuff to figure out how you would cast together and simultaneously play in the series and then reach out to us with a schedule.
2) Regarding overlay it's everyone's personal opinion and I respect yours that you didn't like it.
3) Yeah finals starting was bit messy and that would definitely be improved upon!
there was no lag test in the finals.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
Ok so, my 2 cents on the topic: it was a first try for this kind of format, so it was expected not to be perfect, and will hopefully improve over time. It's also a nice effort to try and organize that kind of event, I appreciate that. That being said, there were some problems that I think should be pointed out.
First, the seeding. Honestly, almost every tourney (be it minor or major) has some seeding issues. Of course seeding won't ever be perfect since we don't have a perfectly accurate way of evaluationg "skill", but I believe it can be much improved. It's not as big of a problem in this kind of smaller tourneys of course, but still, when a prize pool is involved, I think the seeding needs to be taken a bit more seriously.
Then the BO1 thing. In my opinion, it's BO1 one round too much. I get that the tourney is supposed to be played fast, but having the RO16 being BO3 instead of BO1 is definitely doable. The reason for that is that RO16 is when you start to see rather high level players play against each other, and it's kind of sad to see good players out of tourney so early because of the BO1 rule (also the fact that the lower player then essentially gets to choose the only map of the series, since he's vetoing after the higher player). I guess people enjoy to see some upsets and stuff, but from a competitive point of view it's not great.
RO32 can be BO1 though, since it's a large majority of very one-sided series.
There also needs to be less waiting between the series. You're kind of stuck waiting there and not being able to do anything else than waiting, because you don't know when you will have to play. It might discourage players from signing up at some point, which is not what we want. So imo, just be very strict with the deadlines, and don't have a strict stream schedule; just try to catch whatever game is currently ready to be played, at least in the early rounds.
Now the overlay. It is not a matter of personal opinion tbh. There needs to be a timer, and somewhat clean black boxes behind the text. It honestly takes around 5 min to make a good overlay on paint. Then the text should be added through OBS. It's not a very big deal, but it just makes ESOC look bad if the overlay looks bad. And I think it's the responsibility of the streamer to have a clean overlay, no matter who is streaming. Only the background picture with the black boxes should probably be provided by the media team, even if they claim it's not their job.
The timer, the donations, the overlay... This stuff should be explained by the media team. I thought the "stream managers" are supposed to help streamer set up the stream. Sadly this is not anymore the case since a long time. For the sake of the quality of the upcoming events, I hope it will be fixed. This is not a problem specific to this event, but still worth being mentioned imo.
And same goes for organizing the streamers. No, it shouldn't be up to the streamers to pm the event admins because they want to cast (though yes, it can happen). I think it's you guys who need to be active and looking for casters.
About queen and me, the problem is that we were both playing in the tourney, which made it hard to say whether we would be available for streaming or not. Plus we both need to be casting together at the same time, which couldn't work since you only asked for a co caster (@princeofcarthage ). Which is btw bad to begin with: why ask only for a co-caster, when you can ask for both casters and co-casters? And then decide what you do with these volunteers. If you by default want to cast your own event (or is there another reason why you didn't need a caster?), it just means queen and me won't ever be able to cast, so no surprise there. Plus it's bad because you're probably supposed to be dealing with stuff in the tourney since you're the admin, and not casting yourself.
Anyway, thanks for organizing this, and I hope feedback will help you guys to improve it.
First, the seeding. Honestly, almost every tourney (be it minor or major) has some seeding issues. Of course seeding won't ever be perfect since we don't have a perfectly accurate way of evaluationg "skill", but I believe it can be much improved. It's not as big of a problem in this kind of smaller tourneys of course, but still, when a prize pool is involved, I think the seeding needs to be taken a bit more seriously.
Then the BO1 thing. In my opinion, it's BO1 one round too much. I get that the tourney is supposed to be played fast, but having the RO16 being BO3 instead of BO1 is definitely doable. The reason for that is that RO16 is when you start to see rather high level players play against each other, and it's kind of sad to see good players out of tourney so early because of the BO1 rule (also the fact that the lower player then essentially gets to choose the only map of the series, since he's vetoing after the higher player). I guess people enjoy to see some upsets and stuff, but from a competitive point of view it's not great.
RO32 can be BO1 though, since it's a large majority of very one-sided series.
There also needs to be less waiting between the series. You're kind of stuck waiting there and not being able to do anything else than waiting, because you don't know when you will have to play. It might discourage players from signing up at some point, which is not what we want. So imo, just be very strict with the deadlines, and don't have a strict stream schedule; just try to catch whatever game is currently ready to be played, at least in the early rounds.
Now the overlay. It is not a matter of personal opinion tbh. There needs to be a timer, and somewhat clean black boxes behind the text. It honestly takes around 5 min to make a good overlay on paint. Then the text should be added through OBS. It's not a very big deal, but it just makes ESOC look bad if the overlay looks bad. And I think it's the responsibility of the streamer to have a clean overlay, no matter who is streaming. Only the background picture with the black boxes should probably be provided by the media team, even if they claim it's not their job.
The timer, the donations, the overlay... This stuff should be explained by the media team. I thought the "stream managers" are supposed to help streamer set up the stream. Sadly this is not anymore the case since a long time. For the sake of the quality of the upcoming events, I hope it will be fixed. This is not a problem specific to this event, but still worth being mentioned imo.
And same goes for organizing the streamers. No, it shouldn't be up to the streamers to pm the event admins because they want to cast (though yes, it can happen). I think it's you guys who need to be active and looking for casters.
About queen and me, the problem is that we were both playing in the tourney, which made it hard to say whether we would be available for streaming or not. Plus we both need to be casting together at the same time, which couldn't work since you only asked for a co caster (@princeofcarthage ). Which is btw bad to begin with: why ask only for a co-caster, when you can ask for both casters and co-casters? And then decide what you do with these volunteers. If you by default want to cast your own event (or is there another reason why you didn't need a caster?), it just means queen and me won't ever be able to cast, so no surprise there. Plus it's bad because you're probably supposed to be dealing with stuff in the tourney since you're the admin, and not casting yourself.
Anyway, thanks for organizing this, and I hope feedback will help you guys to improve it.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
- princeofkabul
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
Suggestion ; don't let dror cast until he fixes the lag. solo cast with savorybeef was good. the game run very smooth.
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- QueenOfdestiny
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
princeofkabul wrote:Suggestion ; don't let dror cast until he fixes the lag. solo cast with savorybeef was good. the game run very smooth.
Its a bit longer ago but i casted with dror and there was no lag
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
Kaiserklein wrote:And same goes for organizing the streamers. No, it shouldn't be up to the streamers to pm the event admins because they want to cast (though yes, it can happen). I think it's you guys who need to be active and looking for casters.
About queen and me, the problem is that we were both playing in the tourney, which made it hard to say whether we would be available for streaming or not. Plus we both need to be casting together at the same time, which couldn't work since you only asked for a co caster (@princeofcarthage ). Which is btw bad to begin with: why ask only for a co-caster, when you can ask for both casters and co-casters? And then decide what you do with these volunteers. If you by default want to cast your own event (or is there another reason why you didn't need a caster?), it just means queen and me won't ever be able to cast, so no surprise there. Plus it's bad because you're probably supposed to be dealing with stuff in the tourney since you're the admin, and not casting yourself.
Anyway, thanks for organizing this, and I hope feedback will help you guys to improve it.
Thanks for your feedback, but I think it's wrong of you to say we weren't actively looking for casters, considering I personally pm'd over 10 people and mitoe was asking as well. Regarding caster and co-caster, when we first decided to host it, It was decided that I would cast it with rotating co-casters. But later it was improvised to have 2-3 main casters in rotation. After that like I posted in earlier posts I did ask for main casters and yet I had no replies. I think after being asked it's casters responsibility to reply back with preferred timings.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
I have 2 cents about this:
Series length is something that should be approached with care. I believe I was asked for feedback when this was still a draft and I think it was quite easy to conclude that too many bo3's is too much of a burden on players. I know it's ideally preferable to have bo3's or more only, but the truth is that a format like this will take up an entire day for those making a far run. In the light of actually having people sign up frequently, it probably should not be too much of a burden on players. In the time that one BO3 can take, you can advance three rounds, so BO1 saves quite a bit of time. It's just an important consideration with regards to time limitations. If you have BO3 from RO16 onwards, and also have a BO in Round of 32 and round of 64, then if you're going to the finals you'll be playing 1 (ro64) + 1 (ro32) + 2.5 (RO16) + 2.5 (RO8) + 2.5 (Semis) + 4 (finals probably on average) games, thats almost 14 games, with all the series delay included we're looking at something like 7-8 hours of a lot of time commitment. Considering that many people here actually have a real life too, this might be a bit over the top. I could so RO8 being a best of 3 though.
About the seeding: At some point it was decided that developing an automated seeding process would vastly improve the efficiency of the seeding process and release the burden on staff. I think that in practise unforseen circumstances fuck up the seeding system and create more work than that manual seeding would. If just one guy could quickly export the details, check them, use challonge or something, and then easily enter them into the system, I think that would be about as efficient as having someone with enough expertise (relatively rare in the staff at least back when I was part of it) run the seeding programm multiple times to correct all mistakes that will inevitably happen.
Series length is something that should be approached with care. I believe I was asked for feedback when this was still a draft and I think it was quite easy to conclude that too many bo3's is too much of a burden on players. I know it's ideally preferable to have bo3's or more only, but the truth is that a format like this will take up an entire day for those making a far run. In the light of actually having people sign up frequently, it probably should not be too much of a burden on players. In the time that one BO3 can take, you can advance three rounds, so BO1 saves quite a bit of time. It's just an important consideration with regards to time limitations. If you have BO3 from RO16 onwards, and also have a BO in Round of 32 and round of 64, then if you're going to the finals you'll be playing 1 (ro64) + 1 (ro32) + 2.5 (RO16) + 2.5 (RO8) + 2.5 (Semis) + 4 (finals probably on average) games, thats almost 14 games, with all the series delay included we're looking at something like 7-8 hours of a lot of time commitment. Considering that many people here actually have a real life too, this might be a bit over the top. I could so RO8 being a best of 3 though.
About the seeding: At some point it was decided that developing an automated seeding process would vastly improve the efficiency of the seeding process and release the burden on staff. I think that in practise unforseen circumstances fuck up the seeding system and create more work than that manual seeding would. If just one guy could quickly export the details, check them, use challonge or something, and then easily enter them into the system, I think that would be about as efficient as having someone with enough expertise (relatively rare in the staff at least back when I was part of it) run the seeding programm multiple times to correct all mistakes that will inevitably happen.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
momuuu wrote:I have 2 cents about this:
Series length is something that should be approached with care. I believe I was asked for feedback when this was still a draft and I think it was quite easy to conclude that too many bo3's is too much of a burden on players. I know it's ideally preferable to have bo3's or more only, but the truth is that a format like this will take up an entire day for those making a far run. In the light of actually having people sign up frequently, it probably should not be too much of a burden on players. In the time that one BO3 can take, you can advance three rounds, so BO1 saves quite a bit of time. It's just an important consideration with regards to time limitations. If you have BO3 from RO16 onwards, and also have a BO in Round of 32 and round of 64, then if you're going to the finals you'll be playing 1 (ro64) + 1 (ro32) + 2.5 (RO16) + 2.5 (RO8) + 2.5 (Semis) + 4 (finals probably on average) games, thats almost 14 games, with all the series delay included we're looking at something like 7-8 hours of a lot of time commitment. Considering that many people here actually have a real life too, this might be a bit over the top. I could so RO8 being a best of 3 though.
About the seeding: At some point it was decided that developing an automated seeding process would vastly improve the efficiency of the seeding process and release the burden on staff. I think that in practise unforseen circumstances fuck up the seeding system and create more work than that manual seeding would. If just one guy could quickly export the details, check them, use challonge or something, and then easily enter them into the system, I think that would be about as efficient as having someone with enough expertise (relatively rare in the staff at least back when I was part of it) run the seeding programm multiple times to correct all mistakes that will inevitably happen.
there was no real problem with the seeding. Dicktator was just a low seed but has improved quite a bit over the last weeks. Something like that can always happen. And i almost lost to risi would that been bad seeding aswell then. Seeding was fine.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
my only problem with the seeding is that i had the exact same people as i did last tourney, bo1 was good, made for unexpected results.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
queenofdestiny wrote:princeofkabul wrote:Suggestion ; don't let dror cast until he fixes the lag. solo cast with savorybeef was good. the game run very smooth.
Its a bit longer ago but i casted with dror and there was no lag
you casted.... you can't really notice the delay when you're the caster. in the game with sputnik there was huge delay and it made the game very frustrating to play. then the games vs osmane there was no lag just savory casting alone.
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Re: Supremacy Cup Conclusion & Feedback Thread
As a caster lag is a little frustrating because you're pissing off players without realizing it
Also as far as casters go, if you guys needed more you could've touched base with me. I work Saturday NA mornings but I can still maybe bring something in. I love casting it's quite fun
Also as far as casters go, if you guys needed more you could've touched base with me. I work Saturday NA mornings but I can still maybe bring something in. I love casting it's quite fun
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