Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by deleted_user0 »

gibson wrote:yea like for example right now hes trying to prove that china is good in age 2, so hes losing to people like sirmusket( non cheating sirmusket)


Ye he has peculiar ideas about whats viable in thisgame. Always has tbh
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by deleted_user0 »

My statement was simply that diarouga is better than garja so we can't draw conclusions. It's my personal opinion and that's it.

Anyways, GS is right that garja is underperforming in tournaments/streams which is quite surprising with such an experience.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by tedere12 »

It's not even that bad of a mu I'd say brits win it but it's going to be a close game
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:To be fair Garja is, or at least was, a better player than his tournament results suggest. Why attach so much value to tournaments when we have all played against each other plenty of times to know how good everyone is/was?

Well tbh, to me his tournament results nicely reflect his game insight and how well he plays on his streams or if you face him. But thats hardly anything to base an argument on.

If you payed like just a little attention you would notice I play way better on stream.
About the insight I really dont understand the connection with tourney results. Tourneys generally have very little to do with insight. Last two tourneys for me werent about insight or theory or experience at all. And even the MU on this thread is not something I would even try in a tourney environment.
umeu wrote:Well, like gs says, i think youre being too harsh on him. Garjas problem is basically that hes too stubborn, he wont change his strats or adapt well in game. But his macro and micro are overall quite good and definitely better than most ppl who performed better than him in tournaments. If garja would stop doing his own builds and would start using good in meta builds, hes still a good player. Not as good as he was 5 years ago, but thats the same for everyone in that generation.

Well there is some truth abouth the meta build vs personal build thing. But again it has more to do with tourney settings being very bad imo. They don't test skill in depth at all imo and the situation you face is different everytime.
I mean just look at tourney top results. Even when you can find a pattern of players (mitoe, lordraphael, etc.) it's more about general play consistency and using the same 3-4 civs that have similar style. It's hardly about game knowledge but a lot about meta grinding.
I wouldn't even mind the meta grinding for tourneys if it was for few very top civs like on RE and if rules would allow somewhat reiteration between MUs and players. But right now tourney rules promote variety at all cost making it for very random conditions were the best thing is just to pick meta civs, follow meta (opponent will most likely respect the meta as well) and just play solid. It's something that is not much for me in the first place to have good results.
I think mono civ tourney was a step in the right direction. I think I have been a bit unlucky there with pairing (optimus and then aiz are basically the two most random player profiles) and I was punished for thinking he would veto Alaska, not considering water at all or rather being confident my strat would work vs that. If you notice I deliberately picked a non water heavy deck and then missed the extra 3 docks. I was kinda of expecting the classic few boats China FF and not hardcore super delayed age3 water. Probably with very same exact strategy and just constant pressure without aging I would have ended up winning just because his unit production was way too late (and more importantly later than what I would imagine beforehand).
gibson wrote:yea like for example right now hes trying to prove that china is good in age 2, so hes losing to people like sirmusket( non cheating sirmusket)

Dude I literally won 95% of my games playing China colonial. And if you were even just a little good at theory crafting you would conclude China colonial has lot of potential. I didn't even show the "whole repertoire" where you can see adaptations and shit to back up my strat. It would take I'd say 10-15 games against the same player to break down a single MU even excluding lot of borderline options.

Back to the original topic which was the MU. I know for sure that China does well vs Brits. It used to be very tough MU for Brits were you either had to outplay or just hope in a super good start that would snowball in combination with opponent inaccueracies.
VC brits improves Brit but imo not to the point that it is an easy win vs China, especially when TP China is an improvemen from the past and a Brit semi FF doesn't do anything to punish it. Brit eco is also overrated. In a semi vs semi scenario Brit doesn't produce mroe than Dutch 5 bank FF and Dutch units autoupgrade+are more practical+spam lasts longer generally. And yet China is not super easy MU for Dutch when China goes for 1k wood and 1k gold.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by zoom »

momuuu wrote:
Garja wrote:
Show hidden quotes


And if you play AOE for more than 5mins you should also know that those numbers mean nothing.
As for Diarouga skill level you guys are overstimating him by a lot. His mechanics are solid but not impressive and he hasn't achieved anything anyway. The moment he faced a tricky opponent (Aizmak) is the moment you can clearly see the limit of his playstyle.

Lets see: Diarouga reaches RO8 in spring 2015, ro16 in summer, semifinals in winter 2015, and he wins the ESOC invitational. Meanwhile, you have literally achieved nothing but claim as if Diarouga is bad. Garja, you literally live in a fantasy world where you have to twist reality and facts to protect your own very inflated ego. You're a medium quality player (honestly, I wasn't even surprised when a lt colonel like Kingofosmane literally bashed the fuck out of you) that thinks he's a top3 player and thus warps reality and comes up with ridiculous statements so that he can sleep at night thinking he's 'good' at aoe3. You seriously need a reality check.

Garja wrote:I never said I did much better vs Aiz but in fact I did. At least I can understand the limit of my play and recognize how the opponent play. Diarouga is mostly a BO bot.
Also your superiorioty attitude in the forums when your biggest achievement was laming iro to a not even impressive elo score is very annoying.

A semi finalist of a big tournament and an invitational winner. If you look at the sheer tournament results, diarouga is one of the best players on this forum - and although he does come off as a bit arrogant from time to time, it's warrented. I know a player that has a superiority attitude without ever really having achieved much at all. Hint: look in the mirror.

EDIT: forgot to note Diarouga also got 2nd place in War chiefs invitational. If you would play diarouga there's about a 1% chance that you beat him in a serious series. You're 10 leagues lower. Those are simply the facts.
Fact is Garja is top two.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by zoom »

momuuu wrote:
yurashic wrote:Fucking drama bots, discussing who is "mid-tier" out of 20-25 pr30+ players left in aoe 3... Remember Eaglemut's post that only 1.7% games were played on EP in a certain month? We are all in a small sandbox, it's just laughable to argue so much, especially considering how random AOE can be sometimes...

It's not even something that should be argued about, obviously diarouga is better than garja and obviously a showmatch is useless. If Garja plays Brits and Diarouga plays China diarouga could even 'prove' that china beats british because he's just better.
How about civ-reversal, then?
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by rsy »

So are we getting to feast our eyes on a grudge match or is this just another my dick is bigger thread again?
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by sudmakmak »

garja say china age 2 is good. so he play age 2 vs diarouga brits age2 ok.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by Garja »

noob logic :chinese: :uglylol:
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by gibson »

Garja you lost to tabben and sirmusket, 2 captains, playing age 2 China. Now reguardless of what jerom says, everyone here knows that you’re a decent player with solid mechanics. No offense to tabben but you’re a much better player then him. So why are you losing to captains if age 2 China is so good? The China banner army system just doesn’t cater to age 2. It’s almost impossible to get a correct army balance in a perlonged age 2 game. You can’t make an effective cav switch. You can’t effectively remiss anti cav or ranged infantry if you fall behind in either unit type. You don’t out eco anyone either. You have the element of surprise going for you and the fact that you can hit like 1 good timing with a unit shipment, banner army, and wonder army batch and that’s about it.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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gibson wrote:Garja you lost to tabben and sirmusket, 2 captains, playing age 2 China. Now reguardless of what jerom says, everyone here knows that you’re a decent player with solid mechanics. No offense to tabben but you’re a much better player then him. So why are you losing to captains if age 2 China is so good? The China banner army system just doesn’t cater to age 2. It’s almost impossible to get a correct army balance in a perlonged age 2 game. You can’t make an effective cav switch. You can’t effectively remiss anti cav or ranged infantry if you fall behind in either unit type. You don’t out eco anyone either. You have the element of surprise going for you and the fact that you can hit like 1 good timing with a unit shipment, banner army, and wonder army batch and that’s about it.

I literally lost 1 game vs each of them while winning like 5-6.
I wouldn't even have lost the one vs sirmusket if I didnt went bot mode for the TC. China age2 has some pros to exploit and some cons to work around. My point is most of players are to meta-based to even see the potential in age2. Not to mention if your micro is not on point it is simply not going to work.
I think this is a good opportunity to make a distinction between what's good and what's practical. China age2 might not be practical but it definitely has potential, objectively. The simple fact of having starving mechanics (consulate, army from wonder, livestock fattening, etc.) plus having 4 unit types and upgrades for 3 of them, make China colonial potentially in the top6 or so. Problem with China colo is mostly due to the semi FF based meta. A civ like French would eventually lose a colonial battle vs China but in practical terms its colonial it's just good enough to buy time for aging and then cannons and fortress units make it impossible for China colonial. A civ like Brits also would probably get outlasted by China (more or less like Russia does) but if Brit don't get rushed and age then it's impossible for China colo to punish it even with 30% more army pop.
China colonial works better vs civs without musks because then having 4 unit types is an asset. A civ that can go musks+decent RI it's requires 3 unit types from China, one of which (pikes) are going to be useless so its a sunk cost. In that sense ye, banner army doesn't work very well. But you gotta play around that. China can do a pretty decent bow/pike semi into convert (or even just upgrade actually) and I showed it several times on stream. And that's just an option.

You don’t out eco anyone either.

Err no, you eventually do. And not just because eventually TAD market ups pay off, but also because eco is not measured by res gathered but rather by unit output. That is in a colonial battle at least. And china just outscales lot of civs because of how cost efficient units are + the starving mechanics I mentioned earlier.
And btw this is nothing new really. It's not like I'm the first to go China colonial lol. If you look at very old games you would players actually going China colonial. I'm just optimizing China colo builds to EP meta to hit certain timings and suit my style.
The FF is way more practical in the first place and also its strenght is a bit over the par imo so probably a better option overall. But China struggles in certain MUs and that's where trhowing colonial can help. For example Russia can counter standard FF and even TP based FF (unit unit age up stuff) don't work very well if Russia ages.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:Now reguardless of what jerom says, everyone here knows that you’re a decent player with solid mechanics.

Just for clarity: I don't think Garja has bad mechanics or is a bad player. I do think he has decent mechanics and he is a good player - just not a top player like Diarouga is. He probably has better mechanics relative to his strategic insight though.
Garja wrote:
gibson wrote:Garja you lost to tabben and sirmusket, 2 captains, playing age 2 China. Now reguardless of what jerom says, everyone here knows that you’re a decent player with solid mechanics. No offense to tabben but you’re a much better player then him. So why are you losing to captains if age 2 China is so good? The China banner army system just doesn’t cater to age 2. It’s almost impossible to get a correct army balance in a perlonged age 2 game. You can’t make an effective cav switch. You can’t effectively remiss anti cav or ranged infantry if you fall behind in either unit type. You don’t out eco anyone either. You have the element of surprise going for you and the fact that you can hit like 1 good timing with a unit shipment, banner army, and wonder army batch and that’s about it.

I literally lost 1 game vs each of them while winning like 5-6.

Against someone like Sirmusket, that'd actually be quite bad for a lt colonel+. I feel like I'd win more than 9/10 games against Sir_musket if I was doing a seriously good strat, and I never even touched lt colonel rank officially.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by InsectPoison »

Why does everyone have an agenda against Garja? he seems like a solid lad. If all this beef is because you have issues with Garja claiming what skill level he is then you need to grow up.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Post by Kaiserklein »

@Garja how would china ever win vs fr or brit in late colonial lol? They can literally go pure double carded huss and just win...
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Post by sudmakmak »

Garja wrote:noob logic :chinese: :uglylol:


Who say china age 2 is good. so u noob. stupid.
don't up age 3 . = noob
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:@Garja how would china ever win vs fr or brit in late colonial lol? They can literally go pure double carded huss and just win...

Keshik with x4 card are like zams (same stats but no 30% attack) and China mass late game is huge. Double carded huss are not that scary in that situation because they will keep trading for units that cost less and eventually French will drain the bank while running out of mines. China preserves mines for more time meaning they can go for complete combo for longer. In any case if civs get stuck in colo with food/wood units only, China are just superior because more cost efficient Actually if French starts with musk/huss that's gonna play in China hands which can produce most cost efficient banner army early on (choku/pike) while setting up the eco with market ups. Obviously in such sitution French would just age up.
The only problem with French in colonial (and in Fortress to some extent) is that at some point they can throw the cdbs in a big battle screwing pathing and generally that works vs weak units like the China ones. Then again steppes also can get a multiplier vs vills and are very cheap so if china manages to raid some cdbs during the game that hurt French player a lot.
Brit are stronger but have no cdbs, tho they have a decent RI and 2 ups for real units so ye mayb Brits still win in colonial unless maybe super prolonged battle when they finally run out of gold and lbows get outperformed per cost.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Haha garja, you're a joke.
«Maybe Brits still win»
It's not even close, they have 2 times more eco, longbowmen who destroy every unit China has in age2, musks, and huss.
What are you going to fight with? 5 disciple?
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by Goodspeed »

China colonial is actually not even that bad. Could be viable in some MUs. I like that they have 3 unit shipments, makes them very flexible and means they have a nice spike in army pop that is hard to match.
The problem isn't that they can't beat other civs in late colonial, China is actually very comfortable there. The problem is it's very hard for China to prevent a (semi-)FF because they're slow.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Post by Mitoe »

China Colonial is only good while the unit shipments last. Once the unit shipments are gone then you start to lose.

Other problem is that sending 700w is a very slow Colonial start, and if you're sending it you might as well just send 700c and age instead, so you're essentially forced to send 3 unit shipments as your first 3 cards if you want to do anything in age 2, and once they're exhausted then you kinda have to decide between sending 300 export and adding some redcoats or cossacks and really committing to age 2 or trying to age up.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

China colonial isn't terrible but it's not good, and definitely not close to brit's.

The only MUs where I could see it working are vs Aztecs and Russia, maybe Sioux and even here it's almost hopeless.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by edeholland »

Drama keeps this game alive. :flowers:
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:China colonial is actually not even that bad. Could be viable in some MUs. I like that they have 3 unit shipments, makes them very flexible and means they have a nice spike in army pop that is hard to match.
The problem isn't that they can't beat other civs in late colonial, China is actually very comfortable there. The problem is it's very hard for China to prevent a (semi-)FF because they're slow.


5 unit shipments actually. 3 regular ones, 8 bow + flames is actually useful in some mus (vs rushia for example) and 10 rattans.
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by tedere12 »

,300 export is sometimes very useful for a quick 8 cossacks switch in late colonial. I mostly use it for brit musks tho since china age2 is lacking anticav imo
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Re: Grudge match: diarouga vs garja, brits vs china

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

tedere12 wrote:,300 export is sometimes very useful for a quick 8 cossacks switch in late colonial. I mostly use it for brit musks tho since china age2 is lacking anticav imo

Not really, the pike+keshik army is okish vs cav (not good, but they do the job), however they don't have a decent cav unit.

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