Is creeping treasures cheating?

[Jaeger]

I recently found out that there is some crackshot bug which allows you to get treasures more easily. I stopped to think for a second: isn't creeping technically a bug too? I think to be fair, the guardian should chase you all over the map, or it should reset immediately after you leave its range. But of course creeping is so engrained into our playstyle that nobody would even consider it as cheating.

Is creeping a bug? If yes, how did we get to the point of everyone accepting it so easily?

[Mitoe]

Yes, creeping treasures is probably a minor form of bug abuse; on a similar level with deleting wall pillars for seamless walls. I'm not sure though, I could see that guardian behaviour being intentional; how else are you supposed to tackle so many treasures on the map?

Lots of games have unintended mechanics that could be described as bugs, but are accepted by the community anyway. There are also lots of bugs that are not accepted; the Alt + D explorer revival bug, for example.

I think creeping and seamless walls are fine; they add some skill expression to the game. Alt D is obviously does not. The crackshot bug? I suppose you could argue that it allows for some skill expression, but I think it's probably more unhealthy for the game than anything else, so it shouldn't be allowed. It's simply a much more volatile "mechanic" than those.

There's no way you can predict how quickly your opponent will be able to gun you down if you walk up to a treasure, especially if you're using a melee explorer. There's simply no risk in abusing crackshot cancelling, unlike creeping. Even if you're also using a ranged explorer, the dps will be so random (especially in lag) that there's no way of knowing whether you'd actually win the fight over your opponent unless you've practiced doing it a lot, and don't misclick at all.

Besides, could you imagine trying to take a polar bear treasure? You've got the polar bear below half hp, and the enemy explorer just walks up and does almost 100 damage to you in 3-4 seconds? Good luck ever getting a treasure in that situation.

How did creeping get to be so widely accepted? Well, it was probably discovered within days if not hours from release. It's not a very difficult mechanic to discover. Within weeks from launch I'm sure that the majority of active players were using it regularly.

[deleted_user0]

it's not a bug. creeping is unlikely intended, but the area range for the tres guardians is clearly designed that way. You could call it a glitch. Deleting the wall pillar is also a glitch. However, the fact that you can kill large segments of wall because of that glitch, that may not have been designed that way, and thus that's probably a bug.

It's very unlikely that the explorers were supposed to revive when you change tactics, so that's an error, and a bug.

In either case, I think you should rather look at how game breaking it is, rather than at whether it's a bug or not.

[Jaeger]

I'm not sure though, I could see that guardian behaviour being intentional; how else are you supposed to tackle so many treasures on the map?

I think the developers intended bigger treasures to be something you take with your army later on. Even though we know 80f won't impact the game very much 6 minutes, I think they didn't know/care.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It s probably a bug but Mitoe and mankle decide if a bug is legit or not actually.
Likewise, being able to dodge mortars hit with boats is probably a bug.

[zoom]

It's a game feature.

[Garja]

Likewise, being able to dodge mortars hit with boats is probably a bug.

Nope, every firing animation with a projectile can be dodged in this game. I'm pretty sure that units which move during monitor special shot they also dodge it.
With that said, bugs themselves are objective, it is the abuse that is decided case by case.

[Gendarme]

AoE2 AI was fucking cheating. It dodged my trebuchet shots with every single unit by abusing its infinite APM!

[Ashvin]

dude do you even play the game?

[Garja]

And btw, guardians (actually only animals) getting stuck after shooting is just a general AI behavior. I mean, it is the same with the opponent units controlled by the AI.
So it isn't even a bug. Just exploiting AI stupid behavior.

[Kaiserklein]

It s probably a bug but Mitoe and mankle decide if a bug is legit or not actually.
Likewise, being able to dodge mortars hit with boats is probably a bug.

On one side there's creeping, which is something everyone has always been doing, plus is actually the only realistic way to take a decent amount of treasures without dying.
On the other side there is alt d, which literally just kills the explo mechanic (you're supposed to either wait until 100 hp or buy your explo back, not just stand up randomly when using a hotkey). Or the crackshot thing, which is also dumb because obviously explos are supposed to shoot every 3 seconds, not every 0.5. I don't think it's comparable with creeping.

You can also dodge rocket shots if your unit is moving. How is that a bug? Pretty sure it's written in the code. Obviously when the rocket/the mortar shell goes up in the air and then falls down, it gives time to units to dodge.

[Amsel_]

That's a good question! I wouldn't consider creeping a bug or a glitch. I would consider it more of an exploit; i.e. the developers probably didn't intend on it, but it's still accepted as part of the game; along the same lines as popping villagers in and out of your TC to save time. Exploits and unintended features are very subjective. Some people will refuse to play with people who iro lame or play water, but those are obviously an intended part of the game. It's the kind of thing that the community self-regulates. If something is super game breaking then it should be banned and patched; but not many people have complained about treasure creeping. If anything it has been received positively, creeping is considered a sign of a good player. It's silly to try and apply a legalistic code of conduct to a video game where people's main concern is having fun and testing skill. If it's in the game, and everyone likes it, then what's the issue?

[Papist]

On one side there's creeping, which is something everyone has always been doing, plus is actually the only realistic way to take a decent amount of treasures without dying.
On the other side there is alt d, which literally just kills the explo mechanic (you're supposed to either wait until 100 hp or buy your explo back, not just stand up randomly when using a hotkey). Or the crackshot thing, which is also dumb because obviously explos are supposed to shoot every 3 seconds, not every 0.5. I don't think it's comparable with creeping.

Creeping is probably more impactful than crackshot laming or alt d, it's just that it's been part of the meta for so long that nobody questions it anymore. As you said, creeping allows you to take many treasures that would not otherwise be obtainable in age 1. But we can safely assume that if the devs had wanted players to take lots of treasures in age 1, they would have made explorers stronger or guardians weaker.

That's not to say creeping should be banned, it's just strange that we ban some exploits (alt d, crackshot laming) and integrate others into the meta (creeping, drag pulling units, pillarless walls) for the sole reason that they've been in use for a long time.

[Ashvin]

On one side there's creeping, which is something everyone has always been doing, plus is actually the only realistic way to take a decent amount of treasures without dying.
On the other side there is alt d, which literally just kills the explo mechanic (you're supposed to either wait until 100 hp or buy your explo back, not just stand up randomly when using a hotkey). Or the crackshot thing, which is also dumb because obviously explos are supposed to shoot every 3 seconds, not every 0.5. I don't think it's comparable with creeping.

Creeping is probably more impactful than crackshot laming or alt d, it's just that it's been part of the meta for so long that nobody questions it anymore. As you said, creeping allows you to take many treasures that would not otherwise be obtainable in age 1. But we can safely assume that if the devs had wanted players to take lots of treasures in age 1, they would have made explorers stronger or guardians weaker.

That's not to say creeping should be banned, it's just strange that we ban some exploits (alt d, crackshot laming) and integrate others into the meta (creeping, drag pulling units, pillarless walls) for the sole reason that they've been in use for a long time.

Problem is, you take it on yourself to decide what's an intended feature and what's a bug.

[deleted_user0]

On one side there's creeping, which is something everyone has always been doing, plus is actually the only realistic way to take a decent amount of treasures without dying.
On the other side there is alt d, which literally just kills the explo mechanic (you're supposed to either wait until 100 hp or buy your explo back, not just stand up randomly when using a hotkey). Or the crackshot thing, which is also dumb because obviously explos are supposed to shoot every 3 seconds, not every 0.5. I don't think it's comparable with creeping.

Creeping is probably more impactful than crackshot laming or alt d, it's just that it's been part of the meta for so long that nobody questions it anymore. As you said, creeping allows you to take many treasures that would not otherwise be obtainable in age 1. But we can safely assume that if the devs had wanted players to take lots of treasures in age 1, they would have made explorers stronger or guardians weaker.

That's not to say creeping should be banned, it's just strange that we ban some exploits (alt d, crackshot laming) and integrate others into the meta (creeping, drag pulling units, pillarless walls) for the sole reason that they've been in use for a long time.

that's just wrong. Alt-d has been around as long as the other bugs, and its considered cheating by many people still. The crackshot thing was known by some for years as well. Mitoe and I knew about it for at least 3 years.

alt-t is definitely more impactful than creeping, the crackshot laming isn't such a big deal with the explorer. it's a big deal with other units though.

[Mitoe]

I don't remember a single person complaining that deleting wall pillars was cheating, or even a bug, when that started becoming common. I don't think


There's a big difference between mechanics that allow for greater interaction with part of the game (creeping, pillarless walls), and mechanics that subvert the expected interaction with the game (Alt D, crackshot cancelling).

- Creeping is abusing an expected behaviour within the game: guardians return to guarding their treasure when they walk too far away, and so you can abuse it by attacking them while you're outside of that range. Creeping is not without risk, either: you sacrifice vision of the treasure and spend more time taking it, which provides more opportunities to the opposing player to contest it.
- Pillarless walls similarly abuses the way walls are designed to be able to be placed over each other to allow walls to be constructed in more situations: deleting wall pillars to save is a logical follow up to the way they're designed.
- The pull trick is simply abusing the way formations work, and how it will behave in game is not always predictable, either, adding some risk to attempting it in certain situations. If you were to attempt to control or remove pull tricking, you would break the way the game's army mechanics are intended to work. I believe there are also stats within the game files to regulate this mechanic ("max velocity" I believe it's called).

Attempt to remove any of these mechanics from the game, and you to change core design principles.


- Alt D, on the other hand, ignores the fact that a unit was just killed (or in this case, injured, I guess), and allows you to stand up at any time; with no conditions being met except that you clicked a button that cost you literally nothing to do so. It subverts the expected reality from the game as you wouldn't expect a dead or injured unit to be able to revive itself at any time free of cost, where normally it would either remain dead or be rescued by friendly units.
- Crackshot cancelling completely ignores a stat (ROF), and replaces that stat with how quickly you can click. Not only does it completely break age 1 civ balance between explorers that have crackshot and explorers that do not, but it costs nothing and is less predictable and more volatile than the community's accepted mechanics.

Attempting to remove either of these "mechanics"--as some would like to call them--doesn't hurt the game in any way, unlike the ones currently accepted by the community. In fact, it would most likely help the game.

[Kaiserklein]

Creeping is probably more impactful than crackshot laming or alt d, it's just that it's been part of the meta for so long that nobody questions it anymore. As you said, creeping allows you to take many treasures that would not otherwise be obtainable in age 1. But we can safely assume that if the devs had wanted players to take lots of treasures in age 1, they would have made explorers stronger or guardians weaker.

That's not to say creeping should be banned, it's just strange that we ban some exploits (alt d, crackshot laming) and integrate others into the meta (creeping, drag pulling units, pillarless walls) for the sole reason that they've been in use for a long time.

Deleting pillars isn't an exploit. It was intended in the game that pillars and wall segments are distinct units (you can even place them separately in the scenario editor). So at that point, I don't see why deleting the pillars would be an exploit. It's just being smart.
Pulling units is also not an exploit. Units are supposed to run to catch up with the main group, that's how it was designed. It's somewhere in the files. Plus, pulling is used by almost no one, so it's not like it's accepted just because everyone does it.
Creeping is also not an exploit. Just go in the scenario editor, shoot at a unit with a skirm, and then run away. Like Garja mentioned, the unit will react in a similar way as treasure guardians do. Plus, why would they let guardians reset their hp, if developers weren't aware of the creeping mechanic? Having guardians get their hp back when they get lured too far away from the treasure is just a direct nerf to creeping. I'm pretty sure they did it because otherwise you could creep forever without ever losing hp, since guardians wouldn't ever get their hp back, and eventually die.

Alt d and the crackshot thing are both obviously exploits. The first is destroying the mechanic of the explorer having to get 100 hp back + a unit close to it to revive (or pay 100g), the second is destroying the rof mechanic.

[Papist]

Problem is, you take it on yourself to decide what's an intended feature and what's a bug.

Are you suggesting that being able to kill treasure guardians while taking no damage was an intended feature?

that's just wrong. Alt-d has been around as long as the other bugs, and its considered cheating by many people still. The crackshot thing was known by some for years as well. Mitoe and I knew about it for at least 3 years.

alt-t is definitely more impactful than creeping, the crackshot laming isn't such a big deal with the explorer. it's a big deal with other units though.

What did I say that was wrong? The only point that I was trying to make is that exploits are exploits, and that going through one by and deciding whether they are ok or not ok is stupid. They are all abusing a glitch/shortcoming/oversight in the game engine.

As for creeping being more lame than the others, I wasn't definitively saying it was more lame (notice my use of the word "arguably"). I was just trying to expand upon my point about the "which exploit is ok" process being arbitrary - you could argue that being able to pick up a high reward polar bear treasure while taking no damage on your explorer is as broken as alt d but many people don't think of it that way.

Again, the only point I was trying to make is that the "which glitch is ok" process is not as straightforward and objective as people make it out to be.

[Papist]

There's a big difference between mechanics that allow for greater interaction with part of the game (creeping, pillarless walls), and mechanics that subvert the expected interaction with the game (Alt D, crackshot cancelling).

And deciding which is which is a super subjective process, which is the only point I was trying to make. I could argue that crackshot cancelling allows for greater interaction with the game because the higher APM you have, the more effective it is (rewarding skill). Or I could argue that pillarless walls subvert the expected interaction with the game by making walls half as expensive as they are supposed to be.

At the end of the day, they are all exploits. From Wikipedia:

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

[[Armag] diarouga]

By the way, some people think that deleting pilars is a glitch.

My point wasn't about alt d or creeping being right or wrong, it's just that it's obvious that 4-5 players are deciding whether something is an abuse or not and should be banned.

For example, the azzy WC cover mode was removed while the Chinese monk's isn't.
That looks arbitrary, even though there's a reason why aztecs got nerfed and not China.

There's no «objective» truth unlike some want to make us believe, it's a matter of opinions.

[deleted_user0]

Problem is, you take it on yourself to decide what's an intended feature and what's a bug.

Are you suggesting that being able to kill treasure guardians while taking no damage was an intended feature?

that's just wrong. Alt-d has been around as long as the other bugs, and its considered cheating by many people still. The crackshot thing was known by some for years as well. Mitoe and I knew about it for at least 3 years.

alt-t is definitely more impactful than creeping, the crackshot laming isn't such a big deal with the explorer. it's a big deal with other units though.

What did I say that was wrong? The only point that I was trying to make is that exploits are exploits, and that going through one by and deciding whether they are ok or not ok is stupid. They are all abusing a glitch/shortcoming/oversight in the game engine.

As for creeping being more lame than the others, I wasn't definitively saying it was more lame (notice my use of the word "arguably"). I was just trying to expand upon my point about the "which exploit is ok" process being arbitrary - you could argue that being able to pick up a high reward polar bear treasure while taking no damage on your explorer is as broken as alt d but many people don't think of it that way.

Again, the only point I was trying to make is that the "which glitch is ok" process is not as straightforward and objective as people make it out to be.

the part u were wrong about is saying that we accept bugs that are old, and don't accept new bugs. like i said before, it shouldnt be about bug or no bug so much, but rather about game breaking or game improving (or at least game neutral). If something is game breaking, even if it's intended, it should be fixed. Old han is an example. So is the monitor.

i agree it;s not straightforward, it's subjective to a point, but i think the way the players react to it in general does carry weight.

[Papist]

the part u were wrong about is saying that we accept bugs that are old, and don't accept new bugs. like i said before, it shouldnt be about bug or no bug so much, but rather about game breaking or game improving (or at least game neutral). If something is game breaking, even if it's intended, it should be fixed. Old han is an example. So is the monitor.

i agree it;s not straightforward, it's subjective to a point, but i think the way the players react to it in general does carry weight.

What is or is not game breaking is even more subjective than what is or is not a glitch. Ultimately, I think you just have to fix what you can and accept the rest as part of the game. Otherwise you are left in the position we are in now -- banning alt d and building rotator in tournaments because they're "cheats", while allowing people to use other "cheats" with impunity.

[Garja]

Arguing about game breaking is subjective but clearly the conclusions are not. If you put top players to a table to discuss about bug exploiting they agree more or less.
And current situation is totally fine because there is a clear line between some bugs and others. Alt-d is totally unintended and game breaking, creeping is intended and not game breaking.

By the way, some people think that deleting pilars is a glitch.

My point wasn't about alt d or creeping being right or wrong, it's just that it's obvious that 4-5 players are deciding whether something is an abuse or not and should be banned.

For example, the azzy WC cover mode was removed while the Chinese monk's isn't.
That looks arbitrary, even though there's a reason why aztecs got nerfed and not China.

There's no «objective» truth unlike some want to make us believe, it's a matter of opinions.

Again, some cases are just plain obvious and out of discussions. Others require someone to make a decision. The whole EP is about a bunch of players making decisions. What makes it legitimate is that those players are entitled to say what's wrong and what's right.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well the fast firing explorer is debatable imo

[HUMMAN]

By the way, some people think that deleting pilars is a glitch.

My point wasn't about alt d or creeping being right or wrong, it's just that it's obvious that 4-5 players are deciding whether something is an abuse or not and should be banned.

I sense there is an emphasis that you are against "4-5 players deciding". But you suggest nothing, solutions are subjective. At the end of the day, it wont matter if 500 players decided these game rules; it doesnt make it more correct or more precise. Actually makes it chaotic.