Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Italy Garja
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well the fast firing explorer is debatable imo

I don't think it is. Id say the two stronger argument against it are:
- it changes interciv balance making ranged explorers stronger. Iro explorer becomes extremely stronger (being able to use the glitch on the other crackshot too).
- it changes age1 completely. One dimension of age1 is time. There is a balance between time you need to geta treasure and time to scout the map. This ensures that even if a player is extremely lucky and finds all the good treasures back to back he will still need time to get em. Eventually the other explorer will find them too so things will remain more even. With crackshot glitch this balance is altered and it is possible to collect treasures back to back too quickly. Treasures on maps would have to be reworked completely and I'm not even sure it is possible to find a good treasure setup to minimize extremes of luck.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Also makes it much harder to steal if the treasure is taken in an instant
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Djigit »

Hazza54321 wrote:Also makes it much harder to steal if the treasure is taken in an instant
Which is a good thing in this very specific example.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Not even sure it makes it harder but surely more retarded. Gl determining who deserves the treasures with the crackshot chaos.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

@Garja The conclusions people are coming to are not the same; examples of this can be found in this very thread. On the last page even, Mitoe referred to some of the examples we were discussing as "abuses" while Kaiser called them skillful. So while there might be consensus on some exploits, there certainly isn't on most of them. I understand that decisions have to be made, but saying they are made because something is OBJECTIVELY gamebreaking is nonsense.

Also, I don't see how you can say that creeping treasures was an intended part of the game when the entire premise of treasures is that you have to fight the guardians (and take damage on your explorer/units) in exchange for an advantage over your opponent. That's not to say it's "bad", but taking big treasure with your age 1 explorer while taking no damage is clearly not what the devs had in mind.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Nah you just completely off. There is definitely consensus on most, especially at top level. There isnt really much to debate here.
I already explained why creeping is intended, go check my post.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja is known to have some issues with objectivity.

There's not really a «consensus» by the way. Mankle, kaiser, Mitoe, Umeu and you tend to call debatable glitchs cheats, while some other guys, tit, kynesie, dyddy, me and some jap guys find it acceptable.

I totally understand the point about alt d and fast shooting, it can be an issue causing imbalances sometimes, but less than nootka laming or some other intended game features.
However, I simply don't get why building rotator is considered as cheating , since to me, it looks like it's objectively a good thing for the game.

What I'm trying to say, is that there is no objectivity in that process. You can surely argue for the decisions that have been made, but they were made by 5 people agreeing, and one can also argue against these decisions.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Jaeger »

Just to add a devil's advocate point here: if somehow creeping was never discovered and then a player did it on stream, I think everybody would freak out: "WTF, that guy is taking like 3 more treasures than the opponent and not taking any damage, that's so unfair! It breaks the balance between more treasures vs. more HP for safely scouting enemy/building TP"
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Papist wrote:@Garja The conclusions people are coming to are not the same; examples of this can be found in this very thread. On the last page even, Mitoe referred to some of the examples we were discussing as "abuses" while Kaiser called them skillful. So while there might be consensus on some exploits, there certainly isn't on most of them. I understand that decisions have to be made, but saying they are made because something is OBJECTIVELY gamebreaking is nonsense.

I agree it's abuses. I like to abuse the pull trick, or to abuse the creeping. And I'm pretty sure the devs didn't intend these mechanics to be abused that much.
However, there is a difference between abusing a mechanic, and abusing a bug. Abusing a bug is an exploit, abusing a mechanic is just being smart.
Alt d is an exploit because your explo is obviously not supposed to stand up when it's lying on the floor and you change it to defense mode, otherwise why would we need to pay 100g/wait till 100 hp + bring a unit, if you can anyway just revive it for free? The crackshot glitch is an exploit, otherwise why would the explo have a ROF of 3, if you can just instead get a ROF of 0.5?

Papist wrote:Also, I don't see how you can say that creeping treasures was an intended part of the game when the entire premise of treasures is that you have to fight the guardians (and take damage on your explorer/units) in exchange for an advantage over your opponent. That's not to say it's "bad", but taking big treasure with your age 1 explorer while taking no damage is clearly not what the devs had in mind.

Why would treasure guardians get their hp back when they go too far from the treasure, if devs weren't aware of the creeping mechanic? To me it feels like the only reason why guardians would reset their hp, is so that people can't creep too easily. Or do you have another explanation?
Btw, when you creep, you don't take "no damage". Maybe you're thinking about side-stepping, which is another story.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Garja is known to have some issues with objectivity.

And you're known to have some issues to play without glitches.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:There's not really a «consensus» by the way. Mankle, kaiser, Mitoe, Umeu and you tend to call debatable glitchs cheats, while some other guys, tit, kynesie, dyddy, me and some jap guys find it acceptable.

Yeah, so basically all the cheesy guys. On the one hand you got people playing the game, on the other hand you got people downloading bullshit and abusing bugs.
Btw, using a glitch is cheating.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:What I'm trying to say, is that there is no objectivity in that process. You can surely argue for the decisions that have been made, but they were made by 5 people agreeing, and one can also argue against these decisions.

If you argue against banning alt d or banning the explo crackshot, you're either a cheater or stupid, or you just want to be controversial.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Its so they can alt d with japan and build shrine on their hunt meanwhile the opponent thinks his hero is dead
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Ye one can also argue against global warming but that doesn't make it any less of a serious problem.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by chronojj »

Pretty sure creeping was intended... I remember doing it/seeing it done at launch, albeit it has been over a decade so I could be mistaken in my old age. It's an obvious technique; there's no way the testers didn't notice it during playtesting. Hence if they didn't want it, they'd have changed it.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Papist wrote:
umeu wrote:the part u were wrong about is saying that we accept bugs that are old, and don't accept new bugs. like i said before, it shouldnt be about bug or no bug so much, but rather about game breaking or game improving (or at least game neutral). If something is game breaking, even if it's intended, it should be fixed. Old han is an example. So is the monitor.

i agree it;s not straightforward, it's subjective to a point, but i think the way the players react to it in general does carry weight.

What is or is not game breaking is even more subjective than what is or is not a glitch. Ultimately, I think you just have to fix what you can and accept the rest as part of the game. Otherwise you are left in the position we are in now -- banning alt d and building rotator in tournaments because they're "cheats", while allowing people to use other "cheats" with impunity.



No. What a glitch or a bug is is rather straightforward. But it's not very relevant.

There were plenty of bugs in the game people knew about. But they weren't banned because the impact was negligable. Some of the consolate units for example. Other bugs weren't banned because they were pretty much at the core of a civ and couldn't be worked around effectively. Japanese shogunate for example, but also cancelling japanese consulate.

Basically we are fixing what we can. And i don't there's something wrong with having some things banned and others not. Just like we nerf/buff some things but not other things. Why? Because of impact. Not because of some rigid all compassing definition
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Ashvin »

Papist wrote:
Ashvin wrote:Problem is, you take it on yourself to decide what's an intended feature and what's a bug.

Are you suggesting that being able to kill treasure guardians while taking no damage was an intended feature?


It is not decided in theory, it is checked in the source code. So stop imagining things and ask someone who has access to source code.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by princeofcarthage »

Treasure creeping looks perfectly fine and skillful mechanic to me :hmm:
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Ashvin »

ovi12 wrote:Just to add a devil's advocate point here: if somehow creeping was never discovered and then a player did it on stream, I think everybody would freak out: "WTF, that guy is taking like 3 more treasures than the opponent and not taking any damage, that's so unfair! It breaks the balance between more treasures vs. more HP for safely scouting enemy/building TP"

You have been devil's advocate since the beginning of this thread.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by yemshi »

I cannot believe that the devs intended me to take 90f in Age I and then be done with it. Or that they intended the hero cards to enable an "OP" 150f.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Garja is known to have some issues with objectivity.

And you're known to have some issues to play without glitches.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:There's not really a «consensus» by the way. Mankle, kaiser, Mitoe, Umeu and you tend to call debatable glitchs cheats, while some other guys, tit, kynesie, dyddy, me and some jap guys find it acceptable.

Yeah, so basically all the cheesy guys. On the one hand you got people playing the game, on the other hand you got people downloading bullshit and abusing bugs.
Btw, using a glitch is cheating.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:What I'm trying to say, is that there is no objectivity in that process. You can surely argue for the decisions that have been made, but they were made by 5 people agreeing, and one can also argue against these decisions.

If you argue against banning alt d or banning the explo crackshot, you're either a cheater or stupid, or you just want to be controversial.

Haha I expected this kind of answer from you or from garja :P
What's happening here is that you guys can't deny the truth ( even though as garja said, the choices made have some legitimity) so you go personal.

By the way, I don't have issues playing without glitches, I don't use alt d, fast shooting, and I use building rotator because the EP added it to the game, so I don't know where that comes from :P
Still, I don't use these because there's an agreement amoung players not to use it, and I know that my opponents won't use it, but I argue against the ESOC decisions to ban building rotator or fast shooting from the game (which is paradoxical since they added the building rotator).

I can be right, I can be wrong, there's no objectivity, just opinions but what's funny is that instead of saying « we decided after discussions to ban these abuses from the game» you make it look like as if there was only one reasonable opinion, your, and you call the others «dumb» or «cheesy».

That's the strategy dictators use against their opponents actually, they impose their ideas, and call the people who disagree terrorists to quiet them.


Dyddy, Tit, kynesie and me, even if you don't like us, are people who also play the game, so I don't know what's your point.
Finally, I'm indeed trying to be controversial because I want to show that there's a lack of objectivity in these decisions (though it's not going to change anything). Still, I think that I have the right to have an opinion on the matter without getting considered as a dumbass, a cheater, or even worse: a cheesy guy.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by princeofkabul »

Lol, isn't it obvious they make the decisions what is allowed or not. It's their website, their patch and their events you are playing on. Can't wait till the next diarouga event, damn that would be a one fucking big circus with all those glitches.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

princeofkabul wrote:Lol, isn't it obvious they make the decisions what is allowed or not. It's their website, their patch and their events you are playing on. Can't wait till the next diarouga event, damn that would be a one fucking big circus with all those glitches.

It's normal they make decisions about what is allowed in their events, however, it's not normal they claim that there tourney rules are the game's rules and are objectively the best, and thus that people should follow it in quicksearch else they are either dumb people or cheaters.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Ashvin »

Btw, @Diarouga, they have rotator in their mod but they do not allow it in tournaments is alright imo. After all you can use rotator when not playing in tourney.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Mitoe »

@Diarouga I'm pretty sure no one that's contributed to writing the rules for ESOC's events has said anything about how player's should treat these mechanics outside of our events, nor have we claimed that they're "objectively the best" rules for the game.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

@Ashvin @Mitoe
No, that's not true, because if you use it outside tournaments you're going to be considered as a cheater by the eso community.

Cheating accusations aren't allowed on the forums but still, every staff member claims that bug users are cheaters, and I've seen multiple times Umeu and garja calling some guys cheaters because they used alt d.

There's a big ESOC propaganda against the bugs which are banned from tournaments.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Ashvin »

I don't think alt-d and using rotator mod are comparable. Rotator mod is "created" and "distributed" to all people. While alt-d bypasses the rules made by devs at eso that only after your hero is 100hp he is able to be revived. I have played against people who use rotator mod and I never frowned on them or flamed them. But I just cannot accept anyone using alt-d in my game. Because it takes skills and time to scout and kill opponent's hero (which is very important if your opponent is jap). If you really want your hero you can just give ransom which is specially created for this purpose.
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