Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Italy Garja
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

With a bug, yes. Hence why it is banned and not comparable to a built in mechanic.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:1) Units are meant to be able to sprint faster than their speed... There's a "max speed" stat in the game files for each unit. It's clearly defined and it's how it's supposed to work. There's facts, just get them straight. And yeah, you can abuse that mechanic. Because it's a mechanic, not a bug.
Again, since creeping is a mechanic and not a bug, it's fine as well.
Abusing bugs is cheating. Abusing game mechanics isn't: it's like abusing instant cuir spam, for example.

2) Well yeah, we'd have to ban the wonder for age 4, which is not an option. Luckily, esoc devs were able to simply change the value to 600 xp. Sadly, they can't fix the cover mode bug, which is why it was removed for azzy wc instead. I don't really see your point here.
And well, there's no need to reset the hp. You could just shoot once and escape, without resetting the guardian's hp. Resetting hp is needed because otherwise creeping would be too easy, which shows that they knew about it. Same thing: after you shot a guardian from outside of the treasure radius, it will stay idle for a while, then get its hp back. Why did they code that? They must have known you can creep around the treasure. Also, if it was a bug, I'd like to know how on earth the testers wouldn't spot it instantly. It's pretty obvious, unlike alt d or the crackshot glitch.

3) It's not a bug.

4) I'm repeating myself a lot here, but whatever. Pull trick and creeping aren't bugs. Alt d, cover mode, crackshot thing, are bugs. Abusing bugs is called an exploit, and that's cheat. Abusing mechanics is just being smart.
Units are supposed to be able to sprint to up to 50% (I think) of their speed. Treasure guardians are apparently supposed to behave in that way too, because as I explained in 2), it's impossible that creeping is a bug.

I might misunderstand it, and if I do, then the pull trick isn't an abuse, but from what I understood, what shows you the speed of a unit in the UI is something called «currentUnitMaxVelocityFloat».
Thus, a skirm max velocity is 4.0, and with the pull trick, the skirm's speed is 6.0, so the unit indeed goes faster than it should go
Besides, even if it weren't a bug, it is abusing a game mechanic, because this was implemented to improve the game fluency, it was no supposed to help you to escape.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Why was/is the explorer cover mode bug not banned btw?
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Ashvin wrote:
Papist wrote:
Ashvin wrote:Problem is, you take it on yourself to decide what's an intended feature and what's a bug.

Are you suggesting that being able to kill treasure guardians while taking no damage was an intended feature?


It is not decided in theory, it is checked in the source code. So stop imagining things and ask someone who has access to source code.


I'm not sure where this hostility is coming from, all I did was state my opinion. I'm happy to look at any information you want to show us, but you haven't provided any - instead you opened with a sarcastic comment and followed up with an ad hominem attack.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Ashvin »

Papist wrote:
Ashvin wrote:
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It is not decided in theory, it is checked in the source code. So stop imagining things and ask someone who has access to source code.


I'm not sure where this hostility is coming from, all I did was state my opinion. I'm happy to look at any information you want to show us, but you haven't provided any - instead you opened with a sarcastic comment and followed up with an ad hominem attack.

No, it is not directed at you, but on all people who actually decide it is their duty to decide what is or not better/wrong for the game. Something I've advocated in the past, when people would just blame maps and civ unbalances in threads rather than accepting their mistakes.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:Why was/is the explorer cover mode bug not banned btw?

Partly change adversion (with all its determinants) and partly because not as urgent as the Aztec cover mode bug fix.

Edit: misread, didn't notice "banned" instead of "fixed".
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I might misunderstand it, and if I do, then the pull trick isn't an abuse, but from what I understood, what shows you the speed of a unit in the UI is something called «currentUnitMaxVelocityFloat».
Thus, a skirm max velocity is 4.0, and with the pull trick, the skirm's speed is 6.0, so the unit indeed goes faster than it should go
Besides, even if it weren't a bug, it is abusing a game mechanic, because this was implemented to improve the game fluency, it was no supposed to help you to escape.

Idk where you got that from,but in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Age Of Empires 3\bin\data\protoy.xml, you can see that kind of stuff:

Code: Select all

<Unit id ='312' name ='Skirmisher'>
   ...
   <MaxVelocity>4.0000</MaxVelocity>
   <MaxRunVelocity>6.0000</MaxRunVelocity>

So skirms, for example, are supposed to have 4 speed, and run at up to 6 speed when pulled.

If we start to not use game mechanics, then we should stop playing the game completely. If (ab)using an intended feature is not allowed... Then yeah, you can't ever dragbox your units, since it will always pull some. You can't ever lock fire, you probably can't train units instantly...
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:Nah you just completely off. There is definitely consensus on most, especially at top level. There isnt really much to debate here.
I already explained why creeping is intended, go check my post.


You really need to learn the difference between an objective fact and your own opinion.

Anyways, back to creeping:
The developers clearly anticipated the hit-and-run tactics on treasures, which is why the HP reset is a thing . What they probably didn't anticipate was people standing out of range of the guardians and shooting at them as they run back to the treasure, making the AI glitch out and stand still instead of returning to the treasure and resetting (allowing the player to get free shots in, which is the entire point). It's taking advantage of a flaw in the AI in a way the devs did not anticipate, which is by definition an exploit.

All I'm saying is that it's questionable to ban alt d and crackshot laming in tournaments because "they're exploits and using exploits = cheating" while integrating other exploits into the metagame.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

momuuu wrote:Why was/is the explorer cover mode bug not banned btw?

I guess it could be allowed to let your hero die in cover mode, but then you would be forced to switch it back to normal melee stance after it's revived, to cancel the bug. But it would be very hard for casters to check that in tourneys. And out of tourneys, people could still go for the azzy wc lame.
Best way would be to make it forbidden that hero even dies in cover mode. But that's impossible to do, you can't ask players to switch back to normal melee just before the hero dies.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I might misunderstand it, and if I do, then the pull trick isn't an abuse, but from what I understood, what shows you the speed of a unit in the UI is something called «currentUnitMaxVelocityFloat».
Thus, a skirm max velocity is 4.0, and with the pull trick, the skirm's speed is 6.0, so the unit indeed goes faster than it should go
Besides, even if it weren't a bug, it is abusing a game mechanic, because this was implemented to improve the game fluency, it was no supposed to help you to escape.

Idk where you got that from,but in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Age Of Empires 3\bin\data\protoy.xml, you can see that kind of stuff:

Code: Select all

<Unit id ='312' name ='Skirmisher'>
   ...
   <MaxVelocity>4.0000</MaxVelocity>
   <MaxRunVelocity>6.0000</MaxRunVelocity>

So skirms, for example, are supposed to have 4 speed, and run at up to 6 speed when pulled.

If we start to not use game mechanics, then we should stop playing the game completely. If (ab)using an intended feature is not allowed... Then yeah, you can't ever dragbox your units, since it will always pull some. You can't ever lock fire, you probably can't train units instantly...

What do you mean by «lock fire»?
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

You can shoot at units out of your range, provided that you "locked" that unit while it was still out of range. So basically, you just have to right click a unit before it goes out of range, and as long as it's still in LOS, your unit will shoot. I'm sure you know what I mean, it's quite common
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Papist wrote:
Garja wrote:Nah you just completely off. There is definitely consensus on most, especially at top level. There isnt really much to debate here.
I already explained why creeping is intended, go check my post.


You really need to learn the difference between an objective fact and your own opinion.

Anyways, back to creeping:
The developers clearly anticipated the hit-and-run tactics on treasures, which is why the HP reset is a thing . What they probably didn't anticipate was people standing out of range of the guardians and shooting at them as they run back to the treasure, making the AI glitch out and stand still instead of returning to the treasure and resetting (allowing the player to get free shots in, which is the entire point). It's taking advantage of a flaw in the AI in a way the devs did not anticipate, which is by definition an exploit.

All I'm saying is that it's questionable to ban alt d and crackshot laming in tournaments because "they're exploits and using exploits = cheating" while integrating other exploits into the metagame.

When an opinion is reiterated for years it becomes objective. And in any case it is not some bad objection that makes it any less true.

As for the creeping, yes it is an exploit but since the whole AI behavior is flawed you can't ban someone for doing that. Let alone when it is not detrimental to the game.
And then you proceed to make wrong conclusions because you ignore that alt-d is simply not on the same level, since it's not an AI flaw but literally devs forgetting to remove formation tactic hotkeys for when explorers are in the dead mode. There is a reason why alt-d doesn't work on nilla.
And the crackshot thing is simply too detrimental to the game.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:When an opinion is reiterated for years it becomes objective.

Um, no. Look up the definition of "objective" before you use it again.

And in any case it is not some bad objection that makes it any less true.

So basically what you're saying is that if enough people believe something long enough, then it automatically becomes true and can't be questioned even if new evidence and arguments are put forward?

And then you proceed to make wrong conclusions...

Lol

...because you ignore that alt-d is simply not on the same level, since it's not an AI flaw but literally devs forgetting to remove formation tactic hotkeys for when explorers are in the dead mode. There is a reason why alt-d doesn't work on nilla.
And the crackshot thing is simply too detrimental to the game.

I don't think you understand the point I'm making. I'm not saying that creeping treasures is bad and alt d is good, or that alt d is less impactful than creeping. I'm saying it's strange to ban alt d and the crackshot bug because "using exploits is cheating", while integrating other exploits into the metagame. It's also strange to pretend that the process for deciding which exploits are acceptable and which aren't is objective when it is based on the opinions of 5 people.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
Papist wrote:
Garja wrote:Nah you just completely off. There is definitely consensus on most, especially at top level. There isnt really much to debate here.
I already explained why creeping is intended, go check my post.


You really need to learn the difference between an objective fact and your own opinion.

Anyways, back to creeping:
The developers clearly anticipated the hit-and-run tactics on treasures, which is why the HP reset is a thing . What they probably didn't anticipate was people standing out of range of the guardians and shooting at them as they run back to the treasure, making the AI glitch out and stand still instead of returning to the treasure and resetting (allowing the player to get free shots in, which is the entire point). It's taking advantage of a flaw in the AI in a way the devs did not anticipate, which is by definition an exploit.

All I'm saying is that it's questionable to ban alt d and crackshot laming in tournaments because "they're exploits and using exploits = cheating" while integrating other exploits into the metagame.

When an opinion is reiterated for years it becomes objective.

I gave up on the topic honestly but this is really dumb Caria and I have to answer.
For years and years people believed that the Earth was flat. Does it make the Earth objectively flat?

As I said 2 pages ago, you have a big big big issue with objectivity. It seems like it's a concept you can't understand.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by supahons »

personal opinion/sarcasm/anecdotes

creeping - ban it for nostalgia reasons and lose 75% health for a small treasure again? it's actually a nice gamefeature in age 1, what else would you do? 21
explorer-crackshot - gamebreaking especially on LOST-maps, triangle wall + assault rifle. it probably won't be good for teamgames too, 1 chinese monk + 2 assault rifles in age1 in a 3v3?
monitor-firerate - these warships are so bad, let's give them a free 20th century upgrade, the opponent won't mind
alt-d - you don't pay 100c, you don't lose walking time with another unit or scouting information. no you just get killed, stand up and steal a treasure when the other player isn't watching, great fun
unit pull - back to the conscript days, it reminds me a bit about a kiting complaint sb once gave me --> skirm vs musk - "that's cheating, fight like a man" :D
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Googol »

supahons wrote: skirm vs musk - "that's cheating, fight like a man" :D


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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:For years and years people believed that the Earth was flat. Does it make the Earth objectively flat?

As I said 2 pages ago, you have a big big big issue with objectivity. It seems like it's a concept you can't understand.

I don't have a problem at all with objectivity. Simply I associate my own opinion to fact because that's the case 90% of times. So I deliberately take the risk of being incorrect 1 out of 10 than having to discuss against garbage arguments every time. Just like in this topic.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:For years and years people believed that the Earth was flat. Does it make the Earth objectively flat?

Actually, the earth wasn't considered flat for most of its existance. Ever since the Ancient Greeks and also throughout the Middle Ages the earth was considered round. The idea that people in the middle ages thought the earth was flat is a huge myth that somehow seems to have found its way in even books at school. But it is a myth nonetheless. In the middle ages people did insist that the sun rotated around the earth though, but not that the earth was flat.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:For years and years people believed that the Earth was flat. Does it make the Earth objectively flat?

As I said 2 pages ago, you have a big big big issue with objectivity. It seems like it's a concept you can't understand.

I don't have a problem at all with objectivity. Simply I associate my own opinion to fact because that's the case 90% of times. So I deliberately take the risk of being incorrect 1 out of 10 than having to discuss against garbage arguments every time. Just like in this topic.

Why is my argument garbage? Because it doesn't align with yours? And "my opinions align with the facts 90% of the time", come on Garja. I have a lot of respect for your skill as a player, but this arrogance is staggering.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:
Show hidden quotes

When an opinion is reiterated for years it becomes objective.

I gave up on the topic honestly but this is really dumb Caria and I have to answer.
For years and years people believed that the Earth was flat. Does it make the Earth objectively flat?

As I said 2 pages ago, you have a big big big issue with objectivity. It seems like it's a concept you can't understand.


thats a myth. actually im quite sure that more people believe the earth is flat now than ever before in history :P
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Papist wrote:
Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:For years and years people believed that the Earth was flat. Does it make the Earth objectively flat?

As I said 2 pages ago, you have a big big big issue with objectivity. It seems like it's a concept you can't understand.

I don't have a problem at all with objectivity. Simply I associate my own opinion to fact because that's the case 90% of times. So I deliberately take the risk of being incorrect 1 out of 10 than having to discuss against garbage arguments every time. Just like in this topic.

Why is my argument garbage? Because it doesn't align with yours? And "my opinions align with the facts 90% of the time", come on Garja. I have a lot of respect for your skill as a player, but this arrogance is staggering.

"Creeping is more impactful than cracshoot laming or alt-d". I stopped there honestly.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:
Papist wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Why is my argument garbage? Because it doesn't align with yours? And "my opinions align with the facts 90% of the time", come on Garja. I have a lot of respect for your skill as a player, but this arrogance is staggering.

"Creeping is more impactful than cracshoot laming or alt-d". I stopped there honestly.


Read my comment again, a little bit more carefully this time.
I don't think you understand the point I'm making. I'm not saying that creeping treasures is bad and alt d is good, or that alt d is less impactful than creeping. I'm saying it's strange to ban alt d and the crackshot bug because "using exploits is cheating", while integrating other exploits into the metagame. It's also strange to pretend that the process for deciding which exploits are acceptable and which aren't is objective when it is based on the opinions of 5 people.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

So you are contradicting yourself or what?
Anyway, treasure creeping is just exploiting a game mechanic, atl-d etc. are clear bugs. You may not agree with this but that's what constitute the garbage opinion then.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by rsy »

Garja wrote:So you are contradicting yourself or what?
Anyway, treasure creeping is just exploiting a game mechanic, atl-d etc. are clear bugs. You may not agree with this but that's what constitute the garbage opinion then.

Oi garja is oos a bug or exploit?
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Googol »

rsy wrote:
Garja wrote:So you are contradicting yourself or what?
Anyway, treasure creeping is just exploiting a game mechanic, atl-d etc. are clear bugs. You may not agree with this but that's what constitute the garbage opinion then.

Oi garja is oos a bug or exploit?


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