creeping - ban it for nostalgia reasons and lose 75% health for a small treasure again? it's actually a nice gamefeature in age 1, what else would you do? 21 explorer-crackshot - gamebreaking especially on LOST-maps, triangle wall + assault rifle. it probably won't be good for teamgames too, 1 chinese monk + 2 assault rifles in age1 in a 3v3? monitor-firerate - these warships are so bad, let's give them a free 20th century upgrade, the opponent won't mind alt-d - you don't pay 100c, you don't lose walking time with another unit or scouting information. no you just get killed, stand up and steal a treasure when the other player isn't watching, great fun unit pull - back to the conscript days, it reminds me a bit about a kiting complaint sb once gave me --> skirm vs musk - "that's cheating, fight like a man"
Alt-d - you kill your opponents explorer, he altd's and you just kill him again for a free 45 exp. Alt d has shitty scenarios, but its not always a bad gameplay mechanic. Id argue in some cases losing an explorer can just be bad luck, yet gamelosing. A TP dependant civ cant scout, get treasures, gave 45 xp to opponent and will need to build his tp with a villager. In those scenarios Id absolutely be fine with alt d, its a risky thing (you risk feeding exp and he will have a very small LOS) but otherwise I feel like the death of an explorer is punished way too hard.
Overall it used to be acceptable to do and never really felt that silly. There are probably a few silly scenarios like reviving japan's monks but I never considered it that bad.
creeping - ban it for nostalgia reasons and lose 75% health for a small treasure again? it's actually a nice gamefeature in age 1, what else would you do? 21 explorer-crackshot - gamebreaking especially on LOST-maps, triangle wall + assault rifle. it probably won't be good for teamgames too, 1 chinese monk + 2 assault rifles in age1 in a 3v3? monitor-firerate - these warships are so bad, let's give them a free 20th century upgrade, the opponent won't mind alt-d - you don't pay 100c, you don't lose walking time with another unit or scouting information. no you just get killed, stand up and steal a treasure when the other player isn't watching, great fun unit pull - back to the conscript days, it reminds me a bit about a kiting complaint sb once gave me --> skirm vs musk - "that's cheating, fight like a man"
Alt-d - you kill your opponents explorer, he altd's and you just kill him again for a free 45 exp. Alt d has shitty scenarios, but its not always a bad gameplay mechanic. Id argue in some cases losing an explorer can just be bad luck, yet gamelosing. A TP dependant civ cant scout, get treasures, gave 45 xp to opponent and will need to build his tp with a villager. In those scenarios Id absolutely be fine with alt d, its a risky thing (you risk feeding exp and he will have a very small LOS) but otherwise I feel like the death of an explorer is punished way too hard.
Overall it used to be acceptable to do and never really felt that silly. There are probably a few silly scenarios like reviving japan's monks but I never considered it that bad.
Honestly getting a huge treasure stolen by the opponent using alt+d is barely acceptable. The fact that there is the ransom button, which costs 100c, makes alt+d a bug, end of story. All civs can somehow bring explorer back to live: TWC with dance or spend some coin to revive. Asian civs even spend tc time to revive the monk.
creeping - ban it for nostalgia reasons and lose 75% health for a small treasure again? it's actually a nice gamefeature in age 1, what else would you do? 21 explorer-crackshot - gamebreaking especially on LOST-maps, triangle wall + assault rifle. it probably won't be good for teamgames too, 1 chinese monk + 2 assault rifles in age1 in a 3v3? monitor-firerate - these warships are so bad, let's give them a free 20th century upgrade, the opponent won't mind alt-d - you don't pay 100c, you don't lose walking time with another unit or scouting information. no you just get killed, stand up and steal a treasure when the other player isn't watching, great fun unit pull - back to the conscript days, it reminds me a bit about a kiting complaint sb once gave me --> skirm vs musk - "that's cheating, fight like a man"
Alt-d - you kill your opponents explorer, he altd's and you just kill him again for a free 45 exp. Alt d has shitty scenarios, but its not always a bad gameplay mechanic. Id argue in some cases losing an explorer can just be bad luck, yet gamelosing. A TP dependant civ cant scout, get treasures, gave 45 xp to opponent and will need to build his tp with a villager. In those scenarios Id absolutely be fine with alt d, its a risky thing (you risk feeding exp and he will have a very small LOS) but otherwise I feel like the death of an explorer is punished way too hard.
Overall it used to be acceptable to do and never really felt that silly. There are probably a few silly scenarios like reviving japan's monks but I never considered it that bad.
Honestly getting a huge treasure stolen by the opponent using alt+d is barely acceptable. The fact that there is the ransom button, which costs 100c, makes alt+d a bug, end of story. All civs can somehow bring explorer back to live: TWC with dance or spend some coin to revive. Asian civs even spend tc time to revive the monk.
A bug isnt necessarily a cheat. Conventions in other gaming communities are that bugs are only banned if they are considered to have a negative effect on gameplay.
Realistically, if someone alt ds his explorer to steal a treasure, you can just kill his explorer generally. Free 45 xp. It is actually plays out quite strategically if you keep it in mind. Also, you can revive your explorer too, so its not like its unfair. It does impact the game though, maybe negatively, but alt d definitely has interesting aspects to it. The downside of no LOS is pretty big actually and so is the risk of being sniped.
In 2010-2011 people would frequently alt d their explorer against me, I never found it 'gamebreaking' or unfun or unfair. I find losing the explorer by bad luck pretty gamebreaking too to be honest.
Think a situation where you contest a 135xp treasure or a 95w, or even one of those with 3 outlaws/pirates, is free 45xp worth it? And when you kill an explorer, you pay less attention to microing guardians, given you gained the advantage by opposing explorer being dead, so free 45xp is not always the case. I cannot get to grasp it as an undiscovered glitch revealing new game possibilities @momuuu
edit: losing it by bad luck/misclick is one thing and getting killed by opponent and reviving your explorer is another
BrookG wrote:Think a situation where you contest a 135xp treasure or a 95w, or even one of those with 3 outlaws/pirates, is free 45xp worth it? And when you kill an explorer, you pay less attention to microing guardians, given you gained the advantage by opposing explorer being dead, so free 45xp is not always the case. I cannot get to grasp it as an undiscovered glitch revealing new game possibilities @momuuu
edit: losing it by bad luck/misclick is one thing and getting killed by opponent and reviving your explorer is another
Id argue losing your explorer in age 1 is overly punishing, if only because you wont be able to get any leftover treasures, build a TP or scout at all, while also giving 45 xp to your opponent. I think alt d doesnt take away punishment - you still fed 45 xp, have only a few hp, and reduced LOS - but it makes the punishment somewhat more reasonable. Once you get used to it, you'll just keep the alt d possibility in mind and still be reasonably careful when going for treasures. I encourage my opponents to even alt d their explorer if it otherwise means gg due to them not being able to get a tp up - that just feels unfair to me. Its at the very least not as simple as "its a bug so its a cheat" and one pretty uncommon scenario does definitely not give a definitive conclusion to this issue. While I wouldnt say its clearly a positive feature, Im actually inclined to like it more than that I dislike it. I feel like we as a community have really failed to have any sort of reasonable and nuanced discussion on this because its generally said to be a cheat by definition (again, a quick look at other gaming communities proves this to be bullshit) while in fact there are pretty good arguments for it.
i don't think it's acceptable. i've seen ppl using it in treaty with portuguese, then they run around with 3 explorers and try to build tcs and you have to chase them. do you think this is acceptable too?
I am not saying it's cheating. Moesbar is cheating, either it's units, hunts, crates or whatever. Maphack is cheating. The exploitation of a bug is where the debate should start, and fairly does right now. We need to agree on what is a bug/glitch and what was somewhat placed intentionally ingame, like the maxspeed apparently, or reset hp of guardians. With regards to crackshot/ROF, alt+d, even dragbox trick reasonably a discussion has opened. I agree that a decision shouldn't be unilateral. Certain people are indeed stubborn to be convinced, but indeed a line must be drawn mainly for tournaments.
supahons wrote:i don't think it's acceptable. i've seen ppl using it in treaty with portuguese, then they run around with 3 explorers and try to build tcs and you have to chase them. do you think this is acceptable too?
Treaty is an entirely different gamemode though. Alt d japan explorers with the sabotage ability is EleGiggle though.
You can argue on pros and cons of alt-d as much has you want but it does't change he fact that is a macroscopic and ridicolous bug. And that alone is already enough to have it banned and limited as much as possible. And ahah some arguments in favor of alt-d are ridicolous anyway. It seems like people advocating for gun use.
Garja wrote:You can argue on pros and cons of alt-d as much has you want but it does't change he fact that is a macroscopic and ridicolous bug. And that alone is already enough to have it banned and limited as much as possible. And ahah some arguments in favor of alt-d are ridicolous anyway. It seems like people advocating for gun use.
Garja wrote:You can argue on pros and cons of alt-d as much has you want but it does't change he fact that is a macroscopic and ridicolous bug. And that alone is already enough to have it banned and limited as much as possible. And ahah some arguments in favor of alt-d are ridicolous anyway. It seems like people advocating for gun use.
I wish we had that agesanc smiley thats banging his head against the wall. Devs pls I desperately need it.
Bugs are generally accepted if they are considered positive for the gameplay in most other gaming communities and even within aoe3 itself (treasure guardians bugging out if shot from outside the pull range). This is a fact that you seem to be unable to acknowledge. Bugs are used everywhere and the usage is often accepted. This is a fact. You present some weird definition that you came up with yourself as a fact, but thats just an empty statement that has no value. Please come with real arguments garja. Arguments are things backed up by logic. You cant argue by saying that your opinion is a fact because you think you are amazing and smarter than everyone. If you were right and smarter than everyone else, surely you could come up with arguments that are good? If bugs are objectively cheating, Id be interested in your explanation for bugs being accepted in many games. For example, explain why pallisade scouting is fine in aoe2 while obviously still being a bug.
supahons wrote:i don't think it's acceptable. i've seen ppl using it in treaty with portuguese, then they run around with 3 explorers and try to build tcs and you have to chase them. do you think this is acceptable too?
Treaty is an entirely different gamemode though. Alt d japan explorers with the sabotage ability is EleGiggle though.
the only time i use it is on LOST-maps before i build the tc (that's the unwritten rule, most players will do it), but i don't like to use/see it in supremacy/treaty games because it can rly make a difference
"Alt d japan explorers with the sabotage ability is EleGiggle though." if you use this then you can't argue it's only about 45 xp anymore
Oh well, who cares anyway. 90-95% of the community consider that using alt d or the crackshot bug is forbidden. So just let these guys use glitches against each other, I personally won't play any game against someone using these.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Kaiserklein wrote:Oh well, who cares anyway. 90-95% of the community consider that using alt d or the crackshot bug is forbidden. So just let these guys use glitches against each other, I personally won't play any game against someone using these.
Exploiting is the application of an unintended feature or bug that gives the player an advantage. Exploiting is not seen as cheating universally, some view it as a form of skill because certain exploits take a significant amount of time to find, or dexterity and timing to use.
From liquipedia on a broodwar bug
Mineral Walk This is one of the examples of bugs influencing the way the game is played. A worker send to mine a mineral block in vision of any kind of unit will simply move through any obstacle, such as blocking buildings and units. In Pimpest Plays 2002 this move was used to break a defensive structure. If a moving stack of workers gets a stop/attack/hold command they will un-stack immediately and push surrounding units away. This kind of maneuver is allowed in most leagues for defensive purposes, like SCVs pushing away stasised units from ramps, or to block incoming army masses in 2on2. It is strictly prohibited for offensive measures.
An alternative is the SCV Stack, also prohibited in all leagues and ladders. With a combination of move, patrol and gather commands a Terran can stack up to twelve SCVs permanently and move them around. Even with an attack command those workers will not un-stack. In addition workers can only remain stacked when traveling between minerals; with this however it's not the case.
Or look at the medivac drop bug in sc2 which clearly functions differently from how it was intended to function and gives a clear advantage but was never patched out and is widely tolerated: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=211194
Kaiserklein wrote:Oh well, who cares anyway. 90-95% of the community consider that using alt d or the crackshot bug is forbidden. So just let these guys use glitches against each other, I personally won't play any game against someone using these.
These arguments are really good!!
Well I've been listing arguments enough times in this thread. At this point it's honestly just a waste of time to try and convince you guys anymore. So I give up, and yeah I just won't play with anyone who uses this shit. You guys could also just learn to play age 1 properly instead of resorting to glitches to save your ass.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
if you use this then you can't argue it's only about 45 xp anymore 
