Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Alt ding to finish a tc or stealing a treasure, or building a tp or scouting is gamebreaking.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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Post by deleted_user0 »

This game is dead af. Can't find games anymore. Instead its everybody discussing such useless shit here. Just play the game. Tournament rules are good and make sense.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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@momuuu
Bugs are only accepted to avoid all this pointless discussions. Basically it's the "play the game as it is" argument. Which is the base ground for the play to win mentality which again is the base ground for competitive play. They are not accepted per se at all, and when it is possible they are in fact banned and then fixed. In CSGO pixel hacking was bannable offense. Even some eccessive boost on some map spots was banned at one point.
Minewalker bug was banned in SC2.

So you are statement is definitely incorrect, yet you call it a fact.

Also, the problem with AOE3 is that devs left tons of unintended shit in the game and never fixed it. Moesbar hack was just devs forgetting the dev console in the game. Alt-d is devs forgetting to remove formation hotkeys when the explorer is dead (technically you don't revive it, you just change from meelee to ranged and viceversa).
Your arguments are bullshit because you just assume stuff and you self confirm it. You say you can't see negative effects from these bugs but in fact that are almost exclusively negative effects.
I stated them dozens of times and so did others. It's like discussing with some religion fanatic, it gets tiresome and it's an insult to intelligence.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

somppukunkku wrote:This game is dead af. Can't find games anymore. Instead its everybody discussing such useless shit here. Just play the game. Tournament rules are good and make sense.

No, let's have more of these useless topics to eventually get cancer from them and ruin our existences.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Bugs are only accepted to avoid all this pointless discussions. Basically it's the "play the game as it is" argument. Which is the base ground for the play to win mentality which again is the base ground for competitive play. They are not accepted per se at all, and when it is possible they are in fact banned and then fixed. In CSGO pixel hacking was bannable offense. Even some eccessive boost on some map spots was banned at one point. So you are statement is definitely incorrect, yet you call it a fact.
Also, the problem with AOE3 is that devs left tons of unintended shit in the game and never fixed it. Moesbar hack was just devs forgetting the dev console in the game. Alt-d is devs forgetting to remove formation hotkeys when the explorer is dead (technically you don't revive it, you just change from meelee to ranged and viceversa).
Your arguments are bullshit because you just assume stuff and you self confirm it. You say you can't see negative effects from these bugs but in fact that are almost exclusively negative effects.
I stated them dozens of times and so did others. It's like discussing with some religion fanatic, it gets tiresome and it's an insult to intelligence.

So then this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=211194
Should have been patched out based on the logic you presented right? Because the only reason bugs are allowed is because the game cant be changed anymore, however sc2 still has active support. Why was it not patched out then??
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

somppukunkku wrote:This game is dead af. Can't find games anymore. Instead its everybody discussing such useless shit here. Just play the game. Tournament rules are good and make sense.

If you let me use fast shooting I'll play with you.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

This is a ninja edit haha. Minewalking bug is not banned in sc2, wtf are you talking about @Garja
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:This is a ninja edit haha. Minewalking bug is not banned in sc2, wtf are you talking about @Garja

It was at one point back then. I remember reading explicitly about it. I added it cause I saw your 2nd post.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also when you pay 100c for your explorer you get a full hp explorer with full los, which is different from a 1hp explorer without los.


cmon it's just bs.

let's say I kill your explorer. but then I have to go build my tp or scout. then you alt-d and build your own tp like 2 seconds after I leave. if u have to build it with vils, maybe you're gonna lose gather time and possibly as much as 2 passes on the tp. That's a big deal. If it wasn't you wouldn't alt fucking d in the first place.

I remember a game vs Darwin. He water boomed. I went age3 and killed his tc and forced him to hug the shore. I had his explorer killed as well. He was on the other side of the map. And I was about to wall him. Then he alt-d his explorer without me noticing, and he rebuilt his tc somewhere and aged. Because of that he could get culverins and frigate to win the game. Without being able to age, he never wouldve won the game. It's just bs
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Minewalking is totally fine lol.
I'm glad you don't play sc2.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also when you pay 100c for your explorer you get a full hp explorer with full los, which is different from a 1hp explorer without los.


cmon it's just bs.

let's say I kill your explorer. but then I have to go build my tp or scout. then you alt-d and build your own tp like 2 seconds after I leave. if u have to build it with vils, maybe you're gonna lose gather time and possibly as much as 2 passes on the tp. That's a big deal. If it wasn't you wouldn't alt fucking d in the first place.

I remember a game vs Darwin. He water boomed. I went age3 and killed his tc and forced him to hug the shore. I had his explorer killed as well. He was on the other side of the map. And I was about to wall him. Then he alt-d his explorer without me noticing, and he rebuilt his tc somewhere and aged. Because of that he could get culverins and frigate to win the game. Without being able to age, he never wouldve won the game. It's just bs

Or maybe you can walk and come back to kill his explorer again. Big mind game.
Also I would argue that someone should always have the option to build a TC. The twc/tad civs can do it with vills for example.
Thus it's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Lol these arguments are really utter shit :S
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Minewalking is totally fine lol.
I'm glad you don't play sc2.

More like I'm so glad I never picked on that flop of a game.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:Lol these arguments are really utter shit :S

Ye trying to argue against the obvious. Again, religious fanatic mindset.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol these arguments are really utter shit :S

Ye trying to argue against the obvious. Again, religious fanatic mindset.

So we are fanatics because we're 3-4 to have a different opinion. What about you when you're the only one who believes what you say?
Does it make you a tier1 fanatic?
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
umeu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also when you pay 100c for your explorer you get a full hp explorer with full los, which is different from a 1hp explorer without los.


cmon it's just bs.

let's say I kill your explorer. but then I have to go build my tp or scout. then you alt-d and build your own tp like 2 seconds after I leave. if u have to build it with vils, maybe you're gonna lose gather time and possibly as much as 2 passes on the tp. That's a big deal. If it wasn't you wouldn't alt fucking d in the first place.

I remember a game vs Darwin. He water boomed. I went age3 and killed his tc and forced him to hug the shore. I had his explorer killed as well. He was on the other side of the map. And I was about to wall him. Then he alt-d his explorer without me noticing, and he rebuilt his tc somewhere and aged. Because of that he could get culverins and frigate to win the game. Without being able to age, he never wouldve won the game. It's just bs

Or maybe you can walk and come back to kill his explorer again. Big mind game.
Also I would argue that someone should always have the option to build a TC. The twc/tad civs can do it with vills for example.
Thus it's not necessarily a bad thing.


yes, that's what I would say too when I didn't have a good argument. You know that's not feasible, and you just can't deny that it is cheating, nor that it has a good big impact.

it's not a bad thing if euro civs could build tc's with vils. maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing if russia had +1 vil. yet if you just give yourself +1 vil, it's cheating. just like if u revive your explorer and build a tc behind someone elses walls when you're not supposed to.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:This game is dead af. Can't find games anymore. Instead its everybody discussing such useless shit here. Just play the game. Tournament rules are good and make sense.

If you let me use fast shooting I'll play with you.

I don't even care outside tournament games lol
as long as opponent doesn't moesbar or lag its all good
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lol these arguments are really utter shit :S

Ye trying to argue against the obvious. Again, religious fanatic mindset.

So we are fanatics because we're 3-4 to have a different opinion. What about you when you're the only one who believes what you say?
Does it make you a tier1 fanatic?

Except most of my game opinions are based off past opinions which were the dominant and accepted ones before you would come and challenge them.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by supahons »

this discussion is like do you like normal (limited ammunition, unit morale changes, unit fatigue) or aracade (infinite ammunition, no unit morale change, no unit fatigue) battles like in total war?
the problem is that you can't play both at the same time, if one player uses all glitches and the other doesn't then it makes a big difference. (crackshot, alt-d, monitor-fire)
if you don't use them then you will always have a disadvantage, the player who wants to play the normal gamemode will always feel unhappy. if you allow all glitches then you play this gamemode, if you don't then you play the other one. this is why this discussion is quite pointless :D
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:
momuuu wrote:This is a ninja edit haha. Minewalking bug is not banned in sc2, wtf are you talking about @Garja

It was at one point back then. I remember reading explicitly about it. I added it cause I saw your 2nd post.

Youre going to need to back this up with proof. As it stands its frequently used in all settings of sc2. And even then, you are implicitly admitting that it is allowed right now, just like the medivac bug.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

I honestly dont even know what's the medivac bug (didn't read your liquipedia link). I know for sure that minewalking was banned at one point in some major tourney because I read explicitly about it (otherwise I wouldnt even know about the bug).
In any case, sc2 bugs are just are just an extra to my argument and I'm totally fine with them being not banned. They are an exception if anything. My point still stands because lot of other bugs, if not just the majority, are banned or fixed, so your point of bugs being generally allowed is not true.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

momuuu wrote:https://youtu.be/rWvoMrYCQBU?t=10m36s
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-str ... ivac-drops

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Glitch
When it comes to the legality of performable glitches however that can have a practical effect, they are generally allowed to be used, as they are perceived to add to the afflicted characters' metagames, such as the Teleport in Smash 64 and Yoyo glitch in Melee. Glitches with only cosmetic effects are also usually allowed in competitive play, such as Melee's stock glitch. However, glitches that break the game or otherwise cause matches to become unplayable for any party, such as by freezing opposing characters or making the user invincible, are universally banned from being used in tournaments; the Freeze glitch in Melee and the Infinite Dimensional Cape in Brawl are two such glitches that are banned in competitive Smash, and use of either of these glitches can potentially lead to the disqualification of the offending party.


https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Bugs
Mineral Walk
This is one of the examples of bugs influencing the way the game is played. A worker send to mine a mineral block in vision of any kind of unit will simply move through any obstacle, such as blocking buildings and units. In Pimpest Plays 2002 this move was used to break a defensive structure. If a moving stack of workers gets a stop/attack/hold command they will un-stack immediately and push surrounding units away. This kind of maneuver is allowed in most leagues for defensive purposes, like SCVs pushing away stasised units from ramps, or to block incoming army masses in 2on2. It is strictly prohibited for offensive measures.

An alternative is the SCV Stack, also prohibited in all leagues and ladders. With a combination of move, patrol and gather commands a Terran can stack up to twelve SCVs permanently and move them around. Even with an attack command those workers will not un-stack. In addition workers can only remain stacked when traveling between minerals; with this however it's not the case.

Hold Lurker
Lurkers can be hindered from attacking permanently. This can be done with two different ways: the lurkers are ordered to attack a structure under the fog of war or get a hold position command when grouped with an overlord. Even if units come into range the lurkers will not attack.

This trick was long time forbidden, but was allowed again since a player could also spam the "stop" command for the same result.

anding Bug
When a Terran landed one of his structures on passing units they exploded. This worked especially on tanks moving in the landing area and sieging shortly before the structure finished the move.

The fix created another kind of glitch, similar to the mineral walk. When a building lands on top of units the units get pushed away from it enabling units to pass over mineral lines. This trick was used by NaDa at BlizzCon 2005 against Yellow and gained him a spot in Pimpest Plays 2005.

There are more quotes that clearly show that bugs aren't necessarily cheats in that link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_online_games
Exploiting is the application of an unintended feature or bug that gives the player an advantage. Exploiting is not seen as cheating universally, some view it as a form of skill because certain exploits take a significant amount of time to find, or dexterity and timing to use.


https://ageofnotes.com/strategies/9-tri ... empires-2/
This contains some videos of clear bug usage, yet clearly isnt considered cheating.

Bugs are clearly not per definition cheating. It does not take a dissertation to understand this.

#juststraightupbullshit
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:So you are contradicting yourself or what?
Anyway, treasure creeping is just exploiting a game mechanic, atl-d etc. are clear bugs. You may not agree with this but that's what constitute the garbage opinion then.


I looked back, and don;t see me contradicting myself anywhere. The closest I can find is on the first page where I said creeping was arguably better than alt d; note that I said it was ARGUABLY better rather than stating it as my opinion.

Your bug-mechanic standard is artificial; I could just as easily say that alt d is exploiting the unit stance mechanic or that the crackshot bug is exploiting the unit reload mechanic. All exploits are fundamentally the same - they are using flaws/shortcomings/glitches in the game engine to get advantages the game developers did not intend them to get. Some may take more or less skill to pull off, or have more impact on the game, but they're all fundamentally the same thing at the end of the day. And you cannot then ban a handful of them because "exploits = cheating" while legitimizing others. Unless you're going to tell me that the devs intended for people to do damage to guardians without the guardians attacking back or resetting their HP, you have to admit it's an exploit. As someone said earlier, if creeping was discovered today on stream, people would be calling it a cheat.

You're free to disagree with everything I said above; you have a right to your opinion just as I have a right to mine. However, it would be nice if you stopped pretending that yours is fact and other people are stupid if they don't hold the same view.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by _H2O »

momuuu wrote:
_H2O wrote:When was alt-d acceptable?

In 2010-2011 people would frequently alt d their explorer against me, I never found it 'gamebreaking' or unfun or unfair. I find losing the explorer by bad luck pretty gamebreaking too to be honest.


That wasnā€™t acceptable then. You were just playing in a rank where it didnā€™t matter what was acceptable. I donā€™t know when I played in the pk tournament vs nagayumi but he can be seen appologizing for alt-ding his iro watchief just before resigning. It was an accident there. And it has been disallowed ever since itā€™s discovery.

That doesnā€™t mean black star and others wouldnā€™t do shit like that in team games and other settings. How can you stop someone from doing it in a non tournament game?
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:
_H2O wrote:When was alt-d acceptable?

In 2010-2011 people would frequently alt d their explorer against me, I never found it 'gamebreaking' or unfun or unfair. I find losing the explorer by bad luck pretty gamebreaking too to be honest.


That wasnā€™t acceptable then. You were just playing in a rank where it didnā€™t matter what was acceptable. I donā€™t know when I played in the pk tournament vs nagayumi but he can be seen appologizing for alt-ding his iro watchief just before resigning. It was an accident there. And it has been disallowed ever since itā€™s discovery.

That doesnā€™t mean black star and others wouldnā€™t do shit like that in team games and other settings. How can you stop someone from doing it in a non tournament game?

Well I know that the first guy who complained about alt d to me was Mitoe before ESOC existed. Before that I would just use alt d and I didn't know that it was an issue for some people.

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