Is creeping treasures cheating?

Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:
_H2O wrote:When was alt-d acceptable?

In 2010-2011 people would frequently alt d their explorer against me, I never found it 'gamebreaking' or unfun or unfair. I find losing the explorer by bad luck pretty gamebreaking too to be honest.


That wasn’t acceptable then. You were just playing in a rank where it didn’t matter what was acceptable. I don’t know when I played in the pk tournament vs nagayumi but he can be seen appologizing for alt-ding his iro watchief just before resigning. It was an accident there. And it has been disallowed ever since it’s discovery.

That doesn’t mean black star and others wouldn’t do shit like that in team games and other settings. How can you stop someone from doing it in a non tournament game?

Well even long before PKClan tournaments were a thing. I wasn't that bad and definitely way above rankings were nowadays alt d is considered cheating. So it was in practice mostly allowed or tolerated.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by _H2O »

momuuu wrote:
_H2O wrote:
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That wasn’t acceptable then. You were just playing in a rank where it didn’t matter what was acceptable. I don’t know when I played in the pk tournament vs nagayumi but he can be seen appologizing for alt-ding his iro watchief just before resigning. It was an accident there. And it has been disallowed ever since it’s discovery.

That doesn’t mean black star and others wouldn’t do shit like that in team games and other settings. How can you stop someone from doing it in a non tournament game?

Well even long before PKClan tournaments were a thing. I wasn't that bad and definitely way above rankings were nowadays alt d is considered cheating. So it was in practice mostly allowed or tolerated.


No it wasn’t.

we could check jp elo to see what Your rating was in 2009/2010 to see if you were substantially better than the players now as well if you have a username to look up against.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Jaeger »

somppukunkku wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:This game is dead af. Can't find games anymore. Instead its everybody discussing such useless shit here. Just play the game. Tournament rules are good and make sense.

If you let me use fast shooting I'll play with you.

I don't even care outside tournament games lol
as long as opponent doesn't moesbar or lag its all good

BO5 confirmed? :P
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:
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Well even long before PKClan tournaments were a thing. I wasn't that bad and definitely way above rankings were nowadays alt d is considered cheating. So it was in practice mostly allowed or tolerated.


No it wasn’t.

You´re stupid
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by _H2O »

momuuu wrote:
_H2O wrote:
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No it wasn’t.

You´re stupid


Can we get that username from 2009 to see if you were so good in 2009 as to know if alt d was acceptable at a high level. Also was 2009 jerom also amazing while not trying because the game requires little skill.

My understanding was you got a lot better in recent times and had some of your best matches in the last tournaments you played in. Like that Kamchatka game.

When I read your posts I can’t tell what reality you are living in and you make claims without any backing.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user »

momuuu wrote:
_H2O wrote:
Show hidden quotes


No it wasn’t.

You´re stupid
momuuu wrote:Really, if you need to bash on people to make yourself feel better you shouldve picked the other side of the argument
momuuu wrote: Stop being so smug. Use 'arguments' instead, its a better look.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

_H2O wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

You´re stupid


Can we get that username from 2009 to see if you were so good in 2009 as to know if alt d was acceptable at a high level. Also was 2009 jerom also amazing while not trying because the game requires little skill.

My understanding was you got a lot better in recent times and had some of your best matches in the last tournaments you played in. Like that Kamchatka game.

When I read your posts I can’t tell what reality you are living in and you make claims without any backing.

I was a tiny bit worse. Not much, just a bit. Captain, near the end majorish. I never really improved much, maybe sometimes occasionally because of playing some spree of games instead of 5 games per week. I recall a post by goodspeed in about 2010 maybe 2011 where he said he had come to the conclusion that alt d was probably unfair. That seemed a reasonably fresh statement, as everyone and their mother at captain rank would alt-d. Maybe at higher ranks it was more frowned upon, but surely not as much as it is today. In general though, my statement was that it never played out that shittily because I can actually remember the games I played properly (I don't need you doubting my memory) and it wasn't gamebreaking or anything. Maybe the game is slightly better without it, but usually alt-d was a reasonable thing. Losing your explorer is punished less if you allow alt-d, and it's simply a matter of opinion as to whether you like that or not. I lean towards liking it, also based on experience of playing games at a reasonable level where it was quite frequently used.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Papist wrote:
Garja wrote:So you are contradicting yourself or what?
Anyway, treasure creeping is just exploiting a game mechanic, atl-d etc. are clear bugs. You may not agree with this but that's what constitute the garbage opinion then.


I looked back, and don;t see me contradicting myself anywhere. The closest I can find is on the first page where I said creeping was arguably better than alt d; note that I said it was ARGUABLY better rather than stating it as my opinion.

Your bug-mechanic standard is artificial; I could just as easily say that alt d is exploiting the unit stance mechanic or that the crackshot bug is exploiting the unit reload mechanic. All exploits are fundamentally the same - they are using flaws/shortcomings/glitches in the game engine to get advantages the game developers did not intend them to get. Some may take more or less skill to pull off, or have more impact on the game, but they're all fundamentally the same thing at the end of the day. And you cannot then ban a handful of them because "exploits = cheating" while legitimizing others. Unless you're going to tell me that the devs intended for people to do damage to guardians without the guardians attacking back or resetting their HP, you have to admit it's an exploit. As someone said earlier, if creeping was discovered today on stream, people would be calling it a cheat.

You're free to disagree with everything I said above; you have a right to your opinion just as I have a right to mine. However, it would be nice if you stopped pretending that yours is fact and other people are stupid if they don't hold the same view.

No, they are not the same thing and yes you can ban some and don't ban others, based on this distinction. Alt-d is a way more clearly unintended bug than treasure creeping. Treasure mechanic is pretty consistent and only bugs on the first shot or on a fraction of second with the shooting side step. Yes it is exploiting a sort of glitch but it is a minor one and with close to none harm for the game. I call this objective because it is simply not-objective to argue against that.
And this is the whole point actually, because side stepping for no damage taken is actually a thing very few players do even now and it still has minimal impact on the game as we know it.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by _H2O »

http://www.rts-sanctuary.com/The-Asian- ... 3122&st=15

Here’s a post from 2010 where Darwin defends it by saying you can only do it once because he doesn’t know you can change stances to any stance, not just defensive. It looks just as dumb 8 years ago as it does now.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by momuuu »

His defense looks stupid indeed. That doesn't mean there aren't good arguments. With alt d losing your explorer is punished less. Without it it is punished more. There are no other clear exploits. If both explorers die at the same time it actually becomes really weird, however that almost never happens. But otherwise it just changes the game in a way that is not objectively good or bad.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by _H2O »

It ruins a lot. Even an explorer with 45 hp can steal a treasure. And not having any idea where your opponents explorer is after killing it is a huge difference.

Then you talk about games where you killed their explorer and their tc. Seems unfair they can get their explorer back without much effort.

If I were allowed to do it I would do busted things with it :). But then again I usually don’t lose my explorer in age 1.

Or you lose your explorer but still get a transition tp without vils. Also dumb. People would seriously consider sitting on a dead explorer with their own due to the risk of the alt d. Which then means killing someone’s explorer doesn’t leave you free to get tres or walk away.

Or you lose your explorer in your colonial RI ball and you get to fortress and alt-d it to build a tc. Your opponent never gets notified you got your explorer back and that you may be trying to take tps or build a tc.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Explorers are both going to die in age1 eventually. And that's because players will adapt and try to push the treasure gathering as hard as possible. So basically you will see games with Zombie explorers all the time. It is objectively bad for the game in the same way (but obviously to a lesser extent) playing with some cheat enabled is.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Whats the positive effects for alt d, yet to hear them
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:No, they are not the same thing and yes you can ban some and don't ban others, based on this distinction.

I never said that creeping and alt d have an equal impact on the game, I said that they are both fundamentally the same thing, i.e. exploits. And understanding that they are both exploits, saying that one is cheating and one isn't makes no sense.

Alt-d is a way more clearly unintended bug than treasure creeping.

I'm not sure what "way more unintended means". They are clearly both unintended and are thus both exploits. Again, that doesn't mean creeping is more impactful than alt d, it just means they are fundamentally the same thing.

Treasure mechanic is pretty consistent and only bugs on the first shot or on a fraction of second with the shooting side step. Yes it is exploiting a sort of glitch but it is a minor one and with close to none harm for the game.

First off, stop calling it a mechanic. The thing where you stop guardians from running back to the treasure and resetting by shooting them from outside the treasure radius is a bug, plain and simple. And I don't see how you can say it doesn't have an impact on the game; if it didn't, nobody would do it. Creeping can potentially mean the difference between getting no big treasures in age 1 and all of them. The extra stuff you get from them can then be converted into an extra manor, market upgrades, a tp, or even an extra villager or native. Now, I happen to think that this makes the game more dynamic and interesting and am not at all opposed to it, but don't act like it has a minimal impact when it can clearly have a huge one.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Gendarme »

It's a pretty simple difference honestly. Creeping is a cool mechanic while Alt+D is a retarded one.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

Papist, no.
You didn't say that but I didnt quote you on that. So don't use the "I never said" argument. They are not both exploits. One is bug exploit the other is a game mechanic exploit or at worst a minor glitch exploit. And yes it makes sense that one is cheating and the other isn't exactly because they are not the same thing, with all the implications, impact on the game being one of them.
"More unintended" means "more unintened". Explorer is not supposed to change stance while dead. I think everyone can agree with that. While animal that stops by is just the a consequence of complexity of AI programming, which result in poor unit behavior. It is not different from trolling normal AI unit of any civ (e.g shooting at vills with explorer in age1 and they all garrison).

It is not a bug, not plain not simple. It does have an impact on the game, of course. But abusing it (I'm talking about the infinite side step) doesn't change too much the way age1 works. The differnce is basically that you take a bit less damage with explorer. The time required to take the treasure is the same so it can still be stolen.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Papist »

Garja wrote:Papist, no.
They are not both exploits. One is bug exploit the other is a game mechanic exploit or at worst a minor glitch exploit.


Do you understand the irony of this statement?

But anyway, we clearly aren't going to agree or even "agree to disagree", so there isn't really much point in discussing it further.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by tedere12 »

Papist wrote:
Garja wrote:Papist, no.
They are not both exploits. One is bug exploit the other is a game mechanic exploit or at worst a minor glitch exploit.


Do you understand the irony of this statement?

But anyway, we clearly aren't going to agree or even "agree to disagree", so there isn't really much point in discussing it further.

so just lo(os)ck this thread?
I dont say anything positive coming from this
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by Garja »

I do not consider it ironic because there is a clear difference and not even that small.
And I tried to explain why.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by deleted_user0 »

_H2O wrote:It ruins a lot. Even an explorer with 45 hp can steal a treasure. And not having any idea where your opponents explorer is after killing it is a huge difference.

Then you talk about games where you killed their explorer and their tc. Seems unfair they can get their explorer back without much effort.

If I were allowed to do it I would do busted things with it :). But then again I usually don’t lose my explorer in age 1.

Or you lose your explorer but still get a transition tp without vils. Also dumb. People would seriously consider sitting on a dead explorer with their own due to the risk of the alt d. Which then means killing someone’s explorer doesn’t leave you free to get tres or walk away.

Or you lose your explorer in your colonial RI ball and you get to fortress and alt-d it to build a tc. Your opponent never gets notified you got your explorer back and that you may be trying to take tps or build a tc.



When aoe3 de comes out and alt-d and fast shooting are patched but creeping isnt im revive this thread with a zombie rave party
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by _H2O »

You can count on that my man.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I hope in aoe3 DE they do like in sc2 ie make QS the only way to play rated games. Then, I'll use fast shooting in all of my games, and people will have to play with me :roll:
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

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i'll just ban your ip from my router.
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

VPN ftw
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Re: Is creeping treasures cheating?

Post by EAGLEMUT »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I hope in aoe3 DE they do like in sc2 ie make QS the only way to play rated games. Then, I'll use fast shooting in all of my games, and people will have to play with me :roll:

Implying that AoE3 DE will have QS or rated games, unlike the first DE :lol:
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