Why is hand cav considered good now?

User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Why is hand cav considered good now?

  • Quote

Post by Jaeger »

Just a few years ago, you would NEVER see vet hand cav with civs like Dutch, Port, and I think even France made cuirs more rarely. As I recall it was common knowledge that skirm + goon > skirm + goon + huss. I even remember a French mirror between Blackstar and @Hazza54321 where blackstar said "I lost because I made cuir"; and it was true. The skirm goon killed the cav really fast and even tough Blackstar had more skirms, Hazza's goons helped kill some skirms and then he had skirm dominance. That's what I would expect to happen. So the questions are:

Am I remembereing correctly that nobody used to make so much handcav? If so, why did people change their opinion?
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by momuuu »

goon -10% range resist maybe?
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Kaiserklein »

People usually start skirm goon, but then most of the time there's a cav switch. I wouldn't ever make only skirm goon the whole game. But some people do
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Jaeger »

momuuu wrote:goon -10% range resist maybe?

I remembered that as I was writing the post but... I guess people make it on RE also? Do you agree also that people weren't ever making vet huss a few years ago?

I think @Mitoe started it with Dutch
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by gibson »

Also if you get behind in the skirm count really the only way you can come back, besides somehow outmassing or getting a good cannon trade, is a hand cav switch
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Jaeger »

Kaiserklein wrote:People usually start skirm goon, but then most of the time there's a cav switch. I wouldn't ever make only skirm goon the whole game. But some people do

Is it better to make cav late than early because it's harder to micro later on with a lot of units? Implying that if people had god micro, just skirm goon would still be the best?
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
France flontier
Lancer
Intermediate Division Winner
Posts: 630
Joined: Aug 13, 2015
ESO: Flontier
Clan: PLOP

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by flontier »

Cav switch is often done after a big fight when you think you have snipe enough goon/anti cav and then a good cuirs swtich (in fr mirror for exemple) can finish your opponent but in any cases it's a lot about feeling i think ^^.

If people tend to do skirm/goon i think it's not because its the best but probably because its the safest composition you can have. 3 units composition is always better but the risk is to have a wrong balance between skirm/goon/handcav !

If you think there are more and more hand cav used in this type of game, imo its maybe because player base is small and player knows more and more their opponent and how he will balance his units composition. Thats why in fre mirror it's never balanced around 50/50 skirm/goon because player know their opponent will make skirm/goon as usual and not a big hand cav mass early age3 so its best to make way more skirm than goon, for some tournament on ep you can even see in other mirror not far from 100% skirm (dutch mirror so exciting). so maybe one day meta will change to counter this and player will go more and more on hand cav early age3 but idk.
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Gendarme »

Ranged units always get a few shots in before the melee units connect, and with small armies that is enough of an advantage to win the fight. For large armies, skirm+goon+huss has always been regarded as better than merely skirm+goon, because hussars kill skirmishers faster than they die to dragoons if only they can connect to them.
Pay more attention to detail.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by deleted_user0 »

It's more like skirm-goon meta became too dominating. However, more skirm and less goon wins in a skirm-goon battle. Therefore, a typical combination is 75% skirm and 25% goon and at that point a cav switch becomes useful. Also goon resist nerf plays a role.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by momuuu »

I think a misconception of the previous meta and a change that has wrongfully been perceived as much larger than it really is are the main contributions as to why hand cav is suddenly considered better than it used to be conisdered in the eyes of ovi. Or in other words, people always mixed in hussars and have always thought they were worthwhile to mix in. I clearly recall myself loving the 4 hussar shipment as dutch even before ESOC existed and the meta has never felt different. Maybe theres a tiny change due to goon range resist but otherwise I don't see any difference in terms of hand cav popularity.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Garja »

1) 3 unit types is often better no matter what when armies get big. After a certain number of units of the same group the marginal benefit of each additional unit descreases (overkill, pathing issus, etc) so adding a 3rd type and completing your combo becomes a better option.
However, the opposite is also true when you have several ups for skirm and goons but mediocre or no ups for hand cav (e.g Dutch).
2) Goon resist has been nerfed.
3) skirm+goon is/was just a bias in the way people usually play.

About the specific case of cuirs. Cuirs in small numbers and without cav combat are actually a mediocre unit. 20% RR, 6.5 speed and low number make it easy to snipe them before they even connect to skirms. After cav combat and a nice switch it is actually the opposite.
Huss also are kind of mediocre for their cost because of the 20% RR. However they are easier to mass and they have higher base attack per cost which means they do decently even agains goons. Also they don't need to connect together to display their real value.
When you play Iro, Sioux, Germans, Russia and you have a chance to go skirm+cav without losing the game instantly you actually realize that skirm+cav > skirm+goons.
Image Image Image
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Kaiserklein »

ovi12 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:People usually start skirm goon, but then most of the time there's a cav switch. I wouldn't ever make only skirm goon the whole game. But some people do

Is it better to make cav late than early because it's harder to micro later on with a lot of units? Implying that if people had god micro, just skirm goon would still be the best?

You kind of need a small mass of cav to catch stuff. Early on if you have 5 or 10 huss (because in most cases you need to pay for veterancy on your hand cav... 400 res + idle stable for one batch), and the other guy has 10+ goons, you won't really be able to catch skirms with a good hit and run. Meanwhile the other guy has goons, and the range is very valuable early on, so he can snipe some units.

But when the mass gets larger, it's just easier to go in with your cav because you an afford to give some free kills while your cav is going in. Probably due to overkill yeah. Also large armies always feel more clumsy to hit and run with. So maybe with perfect micro, skirm goon would beat skirm cav.

But without perfect micro, after early fortress, I'd say it sucks to have no cav. If you think about it, you're going to trade your cav for a lot of skirms, which means you're left with more skirms and he has rather useless goons.

But well, it depends a lot on the mu too. For example Germany always gets some uhlans, even if they don't really train some, so they usually start skirm/cav. France doesn't need to upgrade cuirs, so training hand cav is a bit more affordable early on. Iro got the big 5/6 kanya shipments, which are better than the 5 musket rider shipment. On the other hand you got dutch or ports, struggling to mass hand cav early on (only 4 huss for dutch, and mams are too expensive for ports in early fort most of the time) and having to pay and wait for veterancy. So it varies a lot.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Mitoe »

Well, I’m at work and I didn’t read the thread super closely, and this reply will probably be brief, but here’s my thoughts on the matter.

I don’t think it’s necessarily true that people didn’t make hand cavalry in the past in age 3. In the past I think people didn’t understand how to FF as well as today, and more Colonial focused playstyles were also more common and flushed out than they were now. At least in my experience, whenever I semi’d against most people the game was already over before 10 minutes in most of my games; just look at the history of the early tournaments, clean sweeps were far more common. I think part of the reason we see cav in Fortress more is because people are better at it, and games tend to go longer than they did before.

Also, hand cav would be good in early Fortress, except that you need to invest a lot of TIME into researching vet cav, while also potentially travelling across the map (because people don’t fb very often in Fortress games) while your opponent is training goons at home and not investing any time into vet upgrades. Because of this your opponent will almost always hit the critical goon mass before you can make effective use of your hand cav.

Cav switches are good in situations where your opponent can’t kite, like when they’re fighting near walls or near resources that they need to defend. That’s the real reason cav switches are better later in the game; you can only kite so far before you hit a wall or a group of vills you need to defend because if you don’t then you can’t gather any resources and train any more units.

There’s more to it than that but I have to get back to work now :P
India Ashvin
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2432
Joined: Jul 6, 2016
ESO: Octanium

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Ashvin »

ovi12 wrote:@Hazza54321 where blackstar said "I lost because I made cuir"; and it was true.

Maybe because cuirs take longer (45 secs) than regular cav.
Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It really depends on the player.

There are some (kaiser, erik, Mitoe, rapha) who've always like hand cav, and thus make hand cav often. These haven't changed their opinion about the unit.

On the other hand, there's an other group of player who doesn't like hand cav units (that doesn't mean that we think that it's bad, we just don't like it), kynesie, me, h2o, bsop (not totally sure for the last 2 but I've rarely seen mankle make hand cav in skirm wars and I know bsop would make a lot of ww as germany).
In my opinion, hand cav is awkward, because first you'll always lose some cav before you can engage, which sucks.
As a consequence, if you're behind, you won't ever be able to come back because you'll get poked and lose all your army.
In addition, you're very likely to take a bad fight because hand cav is terrible against walls/trees/in base and just becomes a bad unit.

Of course they can raid, but still, too many drawbacks imo. I make them when necessary of course ie when my opponent doesn't have much anti cav but else I avoid training hand cav.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by deleted_user »

The highest IQ players make only hand cav.
Vietnam duckzilla
Jaeger
Posts: 2497
Joined: Jun 26, 2016

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by duckzilla »

For me, hand cav fulfills three purposes.
1. Hand cav is more tanky than skirm/goon, which can save your more vulnerable units from being under fire
2. It forces the opponent to put more effort into microing in order to avoid his skirms shooting uselessly at the hand cav
3. They can slow down retreating troops, allowing you additional shots

All of these points do not really work out, if the number of hand cav units is too small and easily destroyed. As soon as you can afford 10+ hand cav units, they are a must-have, in my opinion.

edit
Regarding point 1: this can be really important in team games. I sometimes win these team games only by 'dancing' around the opponent units (too much anti-cav to really engage). It distracts the enemy, automatic fire is directed at my cav which have high hp + range resistance and my teammates can fire down their unit masses one by one. Of course this gets more difficult in team games with captains/majors/etc.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

Beati pauperes spiritu.
User avatar
India Frost Bite
Dragoon
Posts: 300
Joined: Dec 4, 2016
ESO: ContainsCaffeine
Location: India
GameRanger ID: 3243371

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Frost Bite »

duckzilla wrote:For me, hand cav fulfills three purposes.
1. Hand cav is more tanky than skirm/goon, which can save your more vulnerable units from being under fire
2. It forces the opponent to put more effort into microing in order to avoid his skirms shooting uselessly at the hand cav
3. They can slow down retreating troops, allowing you additional shots

All of these points do not really work out, if the number of hand cav units is too small and easily destroyed. As soon as you can afford 10+ hand cav units, they are a must-have, in my opinion.

edit
Regarding point 1: this can be really important in team games. I sometimes win these team games only by 'dancing' around the opponent units (too much anti-cav to really engage). It distracts the enemy, automatic fire is directed at my cav which have high hp + range resistance and my teammates can fire down their unit masses one by one. Of course this gets more difficult in team games with captains/majors/etc.

When I do this , my team mates gets annoyed , and flame me . :/

BTW in real word guns beats swords
World War 3 is inevitable, Run for your lives, fools
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

duckzilla wrote:For me, hand cav fulfills three purposes.
1. Hand cav is more tanky than skirm/goon, which can save your more vulnerable units from being under fire
2. It forces the opponent to put more effort into microing in order to avoid his skirms shooting uselessly at the hand cav
3. They can slow down retreating troops, allowing you additional shots

All of these points do not really work out, if the number of hand cav units is too small and easily destroyed. As soon as you can afford 10+ hand cav units, they are a must-have, in my opinion.

edit
Regarding point 1: this can be really important in team games. I sometimes win these team games only by 'dancing' around the opponent units (too much anti-cav to really engage). It distracts the enemy, automatic fire is directed at my cav which have high hp + range resistance and my teammates can fire down their unit masses one by one. Of course this gets more difficult in team games with captains/majors/etc.

1) They tank against musk/skirm but they get demolished by goons.
Don't tell me you dance with cav in front of goons lol.
2) Not really, you don't really care, you just want to hit and run while your goons do the work.
Besides, we're talking about pr35+ 1v1 meta so the «it forces the opponent to micro» isn't really an argument.
3) This has been discussed, and kaiser rightly said that this was true only if you had enough cav to reach hand combat.
In skirm/goon wars 10 huss is definitely not enough to snare your opponent if he has like 15 goons.
Don't forget that if you make a lot of cav you'll also lack goons and that you'll be vulnerable to a cav switch.

«As soon as you can afford 10+ hand cav units, they are a must-have»
No offence, but you don't really have a clue about high level 1v1 games, so you should avoid this kind of universal affirmations.
That is just not true, sometimes it's ok or even good to go for 10 cav, sometimes it's a waste of money which makes you lose the game, it's very situational, trust me.

Anyway, hand cav tend to be a lot better in low level games (I don't want to be patronizing but it's the truth), because people there can't hit and run as well as top players, and sometimes they get caught in an open field while they should try to abuse the map/building placement.

If you want to see games where hand cav got trashed because of pathing watch raph vs goodspeed ger vs brit or dick vs knusch ger vs brit.
Vietnam duckzilla
Jaeger
Posts: 2497
Joined: Jun 26, 2016

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by duckzilla »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
duckzilla wrote:«As soon as you can afford 10+ hand cav units, they are a must-have»
No offence, but you don't really have a clue about high level 1v1 games, so you should avoid this kind of universal affirmations.

You didn't quote the whole sentence! I exactly avoided a universal affirmation by admitting that it is just my opinion!

You are fake news, sir! ;)


edit: but, of course, you are correct on the matter itself. That's why I also say that on higher levels, all of this might not be true anymore. I'm largely speaking for lowly 2nd lt's levels
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

Beati pauperes spiritu.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by deleted_user0 »

ppl often mismicro or don't micro their hand cav. you have to split them to the side, and preferable get a proper angle from the back or the sides as well. so you have some to snare, and then some go around. terrain matters so much for handcav. in a base or in trees they're just total trash, like melee inf to a lesser degree as well, but on open terrain they can be devastating, especially if you split them into 2 or 3 groups and come from multiple sides.

also so often I see people wasting like all their cav trying to get 2 cannons, while if they wouldve just charged head on and take the fight, they wouldve cleaned up or atleast done better. key is to manouver before you are engaged, not once you're engaged already. once cav is engaged, it's best not to over micro except in small fights where pulling one or 2 cav can be good.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea I agree, very few players actually micro their hand cav.
Anyway, the issue is that your opponent can dodge fights in open fields and make sure you can't take a good engagement, that's why I really don't like hand cav.
France benj89
Howdah
Posts: 1509
Joined: Mar 11, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by benj89 »

imo age3 hand cav can be great when you raid properly (thinking about lordraph/knusch according to recent tournament streams) and take good engagements, do particularly well at positioning your army (thinking about aiz in particular).
From what I've seen on streams, no current aoe3 players multi task well enough to nullify raids nor prevent good engagements and this was also true few years ago. The amount of hand cav and the time at which you make them is also crucial, but I've always considered vet huss to be underrated for civs like dutch or brit
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by momuuu »

Vet hussars as dutch are awkward. Your stable is quite taxed because ruyters train relatively slowly.

In skirm goon vs skirm goon cav usually isnt great, although cav switches can still be efficient. But there are only a few true skirm goon civs: france, dutch, iro and thats it. Brits have longbows, which give the other civ incentive to make hussars, plus longbows dont synergize as well with goons so often its nice to also mix in hussars as brit. Germany's army is actually best countered by cav goon, and its crucial to actually make hand cav against them and germany doesnt go skirm goon either obviously. Ports has cassadores which are extra weak against hussars, so its good to mix in hand cav against them. Many other civs have different sorts of army compositions that might be countered well by hussars.

Its actually interesting, we talk a lot about skirm goon vs skirm goon hand cav and xbow pike vs musk huss has been debated a lot, yet there are few civs that actually play like that. There are only two true skirm goon civs, although ports iro and india do have a variant on it. But thats still only 1/3rd of the civs.
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 817
Joined: Apr 16, 2017
ESO: HUMMAN

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by HUMMAN »

rapha likes to do vet hus+ arsenal up + cav combat with dutch. At right time peak these huss even kill goons, maybe because of misplay of oppenent but anyway it is impossible to do perfect micro.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV